Sex, Gender, Expression, Attraction; some definitions (?)

[icehorse]

Well, the core problem is that as long as how someone understand this has an element of subjectivity, you can't define your way of it, because other humans will in effect just think/feel differently.
I get what you are trying to do, but in itself playing definitions won't solve anything.

Humans talk about subjective things all the time, correct?

What is the purpose of this thread? More specifically, what are you hoping to achieve with it?

The scientific and medical definitions for sex, gender, and gender identity are all readily accessible online, so I'm not sure how or why the opinions of laypeople would change much, if anything, regarding said definitions. Are you trying to explore how people's opinions on sex and gender identity might compare to the expert consensus?

What I observe when I see people talking about these topics is - more than usual - people talking past each other or arguing over semantics. The thought was that if we could agree on definitions of terms the conversations would be a lot more productive.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Humans talk about subjective things all the time, correct?


What I observe when I see people talking about these topics is - more than usual - people talking past each other or arguing over semantics. The thought was that if we could agree on definitions of terms the conversations would be a lot more productive.

<Optimistic>

 

[Father Heathen]

As a human with critical thinking

Having the ability and actually exercising it are two different things.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Taking a nod from Confucius, as I do, I thought I'd offer some definitions for debate or agreement. (Taken from GenderBread.org):

Anatomical Sex (sex): Sex (sometimes called biological sex, anatomical sex, or physical sex) is comprised of things like genitals, chromosomes, hormones, body hair, and more. But one thing it’s not: gender.

Gender Identity: Your psychological sense of self. Who you, in your head, know yourself to be, based on how much you align (or don’t align) with what you understand to be the options for gender.

Gender Expression: The ways you present gender, through your actions, clothing, demeanor, and more. Your outward-facing self, and how that’s interpreted by others based on gender norms.

Attraction: Like sex, attraction isn’t really a component of gender. However, we often conflate sexual orientation with gender, or categorize the attraction we experience in gendered ways.

Starting with these definitions:

sex: seems clear, it's biology.
gender identity: This is where a trans person might feel as though they got the wrong body, correct?
gender expression: would a cross dresser be an example? (e.g. a cis male, who dresses as a woman?) not sure!
attraction: I'm guessing this is where gay men and lesbians fit in?

So, any thoughts, corrections?

An Adorable, Accessible Way to Explain a Complicated Concept » The Genderbread Person

The four definitions seem fine to me. I think your 'plain English' versions have some problems in terms of how they are stated.

For example, gender expression isn't where a cross dresser would be an example. It's simply how you present to the outside world. I have a gender expression (male). In the 'old days' a 'tomboy' might have presented as male, or gender neutral, regardless of their sex, gender and attraction.

It's a little like the word 'ethnic'. You might hear people talking about ethnic groups, meaning ethnic groups outside their own, or ethnicity apart from the 'norm'. But we all hold ethnic identities of some form.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Very excited for the day when people stop spending so much time thinking about trans people. I'm tired of being the hot-button issue.

The egalitarian in me agrees.
This thread isn't the place for it...heck, I'm not sure any thread on RF is the place for it...but I'd be interested to know what you think has contributed to trans issues being front and centre of so much politically these days.

I think there is a combination of activism from both 'sides' of the political divide that are driving this. It's different, for lots of reasons, to the relatively slower burn of feminism, racial equality or even gay rights.

(Not that those movements didn't have clear moments of 'heat', but I mean generally...)

 

[Kfox]

Taking a nod from Confucius, as I do, I thought I'd offer some definitions for debate or agreement. (Taken from GenderBread.org):

Anatomical Sex (sex): Sex (sometimes called biological sex, anatomical sex, or physical sex) is comprised of things like genitals, chromosomes, hormones, body hair, and more. But one thing it’s not: gender.

Gender Identity: Your psychological sense of self. Who you, in your head, know yourself to be, based on how much you align (or don’t align) with what you understand to be the options for gender.

Gender Expression: The ways you present gender, through your actions, clothing, demeanor, and more. Your outward-facing self, and how that’s interpreted by others based on gender norms.

Attraction: Like sex, attraction isn’t really a component of gender. However, we often conflate sexual orientation with gender, or categorize the attraction we experience in gendered ways.

Starting with these definitions:

sex: seems clear, it's biology.
gender identity: This is where a trans person might feel as though they got the wrong body, correct?
gender expression: would a cross dresser be an example? (e.g. a cis male, who dresses as a woman?) not sure!
attraction: I'm guessing this is where gay men and lesbians fit in?

So, any thoughts, corrections?

An Adorable, Accessible Way to Explain a Complicated Concept » The Genderbread Person

When it comes to gender identity, how does a person believe themselves to be a woman, if they don't know what a woman is?

 

[Brickjectivity]

So, any thoughts, corrections?

Is gender defined by what attracts you as opposed to sex (what your physical biology is)? Oxford says: "gender: the male sex or the female sex, especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones, or one of a range of other identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female." I understand what attraction is, and I understand what sex is. Is gender neither of these?

Your psychological sense of self. Who you, in your head, know yourself to be,

I recognize this to be identity. Are they saying that gender is not gender identity or that it is gender identity? If I understand this, they are saying that gender is not merely attraction but is how you view yourself as part of society? So there is no separate term 'Gender identity', not really; because gender is what is meant. Why then have the extra term 'gender identity'?

To sum up: 'Gender identity' should be shortened to 'Gender' and should contain at least a reference to the necessity of childhood in the development of personal identity.

 

[Kfox]

Is gender defined by what attracts you as opposed to sex (what your physical biology is)? Oxford says: "gender: the male sex or the female sex, especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones, or one of a range of other identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female." I understand what attraction is, and I understand what sex is. Is gender neither of these?

It is my understanding that gender is when a person has a preconceived notion of what it means to be male, and female. Now if their biology does not align with their idea of what they have determined a male or female is supposed to be, they feel their gender and biology does not match; thus gender dysphoria.

 

[Kfox]

Taking a nod from Confucius, as I do, I thought I'd offer some definitions for debate or agreement. (Taken from GenderBread.org):

Anatomical Sex (sex): Sex (sometimes called biological sex, anatomical sex, or physical sex) is comprised of things like genitals, chromosomes, hormones, body hair, and more. But one thing it’s not: gender.

Gender Identity: Your psychological sense of self. Who you, in your head, know yourself to be, based on how much you align (or don’t align) with what you understand to be the options for gender.

Gender Expression: The ways you present gender, through your actions, clothing, demeanor, and more. Your outward-facing self, and how that’s interpreted by others based on gender norms.

Attraction: Like sex, attraction isn’t really a component of gender. However, we often conflate sexual orientation with gender, or categorize the attraction we experience in gendered ways.

I think to base Gender Identity on how much you align with what you understand to be the options for Gender is the problem. It needs to be understood that ALL options are available to you regardless of Gender.

 

[icehorse]

It is my understanding that gender is when a person has a preconceived notion of what it means to be male, and female. Now if their biology does not align with their idea of what they have determined a male or female is supposed to be, they feel their gender and biology does not match; thus gender dysphoria.

I think to base Gender Identity on how much you align with what you understand to be the options for Gender is the problem. It needs to be understood that ALL options are available to you regardless of Gender.

I think "gender" is an ill-formed, often-damaging concept. Based on what you said above, how do you categorize gay people? For a large percentage of gay kids, society tells them that they should be attracted to the opposite sex. As they go through puberty, the fact that they are same sex attracted causes a LOT of dysphoria, and challenges society's preconceived notions of what it means to be male and female.