Sexual abuse in Mormon church

[Jane.Doe]

I am sorry to hear of your experience - I had experiences outside the church, before joining, and now I have had experiences inside the church - a place I thought was safe - I thought the Spirit guided callings etc. and I was wrong. My patriarchal blessing says I "was tested at a young age" and that I will be tested my entire life... was that blessing from g-d? is this how g-d "tests" people? because that is what my blessing states.

This thing has me so messed up - I hate g-d, I hate people I used to look up to, nothing beyond the veil to look forward to, and nothing but pain and misery here too. I want to go back to the naive/happy/security/faith I had before this, where I had faith in g-d, believed g-d was loving etc. and I cannot go back.

Honesty. I have delt with a lot of lies as well. Honesty is very important to me, and if I am honest - I honestly do not believe g-d is loving anymore.

I'm sorry you've also gone through such a hard time.

I was too young when my naiveté was taken to remember ever having it. Honestly, I spent years of my life resenting those who showed naive views-- thinking they were stupid weak children going to walk off a cliff (not a very Christ-like attitude, I'll admit). I grew up always watching the exits and always plotting a defense strategy- for me, it was like breathing.

Still... while I do not wish the pain I have felt on anyone else, and I totally rejoice in the healing I've experienced... I do not wish my experiences to be erased from my mind--- they are part of me. Yes, the royally sucked, but they are part of me, and I do not wish them gone. I learned. I grew stronger. I fought dragons in my life-- and I killed them. I know more about trust, safety, happiness, and real love. For me, love & trust are not a default setting, but a conscious one. I'm aware of my surroundings. I'm aware of myself so thoroughly because I've been through so much-- I feel the power I have, the power broke the cycle and killed the dragon of shadows. When I love... it is SO powerful. I do not wish for any part of me to be taken away or to ever go back.

 

[Sapiens]

official church statement -
Church Statement About Alleged Sexual Assault by Former Mission President
- we interviewed him, he said he did not do anything wrong, so we ignored it...no disciplinary council or action, this is how things are done in the LDS church. The church does NOT report abuse.

Then the church officials who knew should be jailed.

It might be a good idea to arrange for a revelation that changes that policy.

 

[Watchmen]

There’s sexual abuse everywhere. The Mormon Church is no exception. See also:

Watchtower (JW)
Catholic Church
Boy Scouts
YMCA
School districts
And so on.

I doubt you’ll find any Mormons here who will “defend” the abuse or any cover-up.

 

[Katzpur]

How can anyone claim that

• the priesthood is real
• leaders are led by the spirit
• callings are inspired
• Women should not work to support themselves, they should remain trapped in abusive relashonships - it is the duty of priesthood to "protect and provide" while women are to stay at home.
• etc. etc. etc.

In light of these cases?

So this is what you're challenging me to "defend"? Seriously? I'm not really sure where you want me to go with this, but I am pretty sure that it isn't going to matter one single solitary bit to you how I answer. You don't want answers. You want somebody to vent to. That's understandable. When you're dealing with human beings, you have to put up with a lot of crap -- even if they hold positions of authority in the institution you once saw as God's kingdom on earth. Well, guess what? You were wrong in how you saw it. I'm sorry that when you finally came to realize that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints wasn't perfect, it came as such a shock to you. You see, I was raised LDS. I saw the flaws as a child, as a teenager, as a young mother, as a middle-aged woman and now as a woman approaching 70. I've always believed that the priesthood is real. It is, after all, God's power. If it isn't real, then God had no power. I can't buy that.

Does that mean that all priesthood holders are worthy to use that power? Of course not. There are some very, very bad people in the world, and some of them are in our Church. Leaders are sometimes led by the spirit. Sometimes they are not. Callings are sometimes inspired. Often they are not. Women should never be made to feel trapped in abusive relationships and anyone who says otherwise is full of it.

Does g-d call pedophiles into leadership positions?

No.

then allow them to stay in those positions for years and years?

No.

Or is the church not led by g-d?

The Church is led by human beings. To me, that's a no-brainer. Based on what you have said so far, particularly in the post just prior to this one, I'm almost at a loss as to what else I could possibly say to you. I'm sorry you have decided to hate God, but you really do need to understand that nothing you have said in this thread is going to help either you or anybody else. I would seriously suggest that you find an angry-ex-Mormon hate group to join. They are a dime a dozen. You can rail against the Church and against God all you want. It won't stop Him from loving you, but it may help you feel better to get rid of all of the venom by interacting with people who hate Him and the Church as much as you do. This kind of hatred is poisonous and it kills slowly, so get it out of your system as quickly as you can, and try to move on without dragging all of the rest of us with you.

 

[Katzpur]

And here it is. It was only a matter of time before the LDS Church was embroiled in its own sexual abuse scandal like the Catholic Church and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

First the Catholics, then the Mormons, then the JW's. Sexual abuse is everywhere. It's in churches, synagogues, mosques and prayer circles throughout the world. It's in Hollywood. It's in the Armed Forces. It's in the U.S. Government -- at this highest levels. It's in the workplace. It's vile and disgusting, but NOBODY, NO GROUP OR ORGANIZATION has a monopoly on it. So get off your throne and look around. Even in your empire, Mr. Emperor of Mankind, there is filth needing to be cleaned up.

 

[idea]

I'm sorry you've also gone through such a hard time.

I was too young when my naiveté was taken to remember ever having it. Honestly, I spent years of my life resenting those who showed naive views-- thinking they were stupid weak children going to walk off a cliff (not a very Christ-like attitude, I'll admit).

I rather distrust the perfect-goodie-two-shoes, "perfect" crowd as well - what do you think, do some people come to earth already perfect - with no need for refinement? while the rest of us require being knocked around a bit? and others g-d just plain does not want to spend eternity with, so He makes sure we fail our tests? Is anything in heaven really just/merciful/loving considering the existence of outer darkness, and the unjust "educational" refining experiences g-d's children receive?

Is any of this stuff supposed to "refine"??? This does not refine. This grinds people to dust.

I grew up always watching the exits and always plotting a defense strategy- for me, it was like breathing.

Still... while I do not wish the pain I have felt on anyone else, and I totally rejoice in the healing I've experienced... I do not wish my experiences to be erased from my mind--- they are part of me. Yes, the royally sucked, but they are part of me, and I do not wish them gone. I learned. I grew stronger. I fought dragons in my life-- and I killed them. I know more about trust, safety, happiness, and real love. For me, love & trust are not a default setting, but a conscious one. I'm aware of my surroundings. I'm aware of myself so thoroughly because I've been through so much-- I feel the power I have, the power broke the cycle and killed the dragon of shadows. When I love... it is SO powerful. I do not wish for any part of me to be taken away or to ever go back.

Yes, it does teach someone how to fight - that is for sure. I'm not sure how anything like this teaches anyone what real love is though....

 

[idea]

The Church is led by human beings. To me, that's a no-brainer...

Strange, I used to hope it was led by g-d. I guess the LDS church is no different from any other human-led organization. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Jane.Doe]

I rather distrust the perfect-goodie-two-shoes, "perfect" crowd as well - what do you think, do some people come to earth already perfect - with no need for refinement? while the rest of us require being knocked around a bit?

I don't know anybody who honestly thinks that of themselves (or anyone it's true of). I do know some that will put on that false face, but that's their problem.

and others g-d just plain does not want to spend eternity with, so He makes sure we fail our tests?

I don't believe God wants anyone to fall short. We do each have our own choices though.

Is any of this stuff supposed to "refine"??? This does not refine. This grinds people to dust.

Now that I disagree, strongly.

Yes, it does teach someone how to fight - that is for sure. I'm not sure how anything like this teaches anyone what real love is though....

I don't default into generic "I love you"s like an Elmo doll. I know bad relationships & good ones, fake 'love' & the very real thing you consciously give.

 

[idea]

Then the church officials who knew should be jailed.

It might be a good idea to arrange for a revelation that changes that policy.

“Furthermore, I have heard of some Bishops who have been seeking to cover up the iniquities of men; I tell them, in the name of God, they will have to bear … that iniquity, and if any of you want to partake of the sins of men, or uphold them, you will have to bear them. Do you hear it, you Bishops and you Presidents? God will require it at your hands. You are not placed in position to tamper with the principles of righteousness, nor to cover up the infamies and corruptions of men.” (Conference Report, Apr. 1880, p. 78.)

These are very strong words, brethren, and they were spoken by a president of the Church, a prophet of God. Also, George Q. Cannon makes this significant statement: “The Spirit of God would undoubtedly be so grieved that it would forsake not only those who are guilty of these acts, but it would withdraw itself from those who would suffer them to be done in our midst unchecked and unrebuked.” Our Responsibility to the Transgressor - N. Eldon Tanner

 

[idea]

I don't know anybody who honestly thinks that of themselves (or anyone it's true of). I do know some that will put on that false face, but that's their problem.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones...

I guess I am just jealous that I am not one of the beloved "noble and great ones"... an eternal heavenly caste system where spirits of different levels are segregated into different kingdoms, is this really what heaven is?

I don't believe God wants anyone to fall short. We do each have our own choices though.

I used to think no one was tested beyond their limits. I do not think that anymore. I was shown my limit - held dangling by my neck in the air looking back at the cliff to see where my limit was.

Now that I disagree, strongly.

I don't default into generic "I love you"s like an Elmo doll. I know bad relationships & good ones, fake 'love' & the very real thing you consciously give.

innocent children are refined through sexual abuse?

I always thought the best way to learn something was from a master - from a good example. There are an infinite number of ways something can be done wrong - you could spend all eternity seeing bad examples of things... yes "be the change you want to see in the world" and all that, but I am not sure how anyone can force themselves to love others when their heart has been hardened.

 

[dianaiad]

How can anyone claim that

• the priesthood is real
• leaders are led by the spirit
• callings are inspired
• Women should not work to support themselves, they should remain trapped in abusive relashonships - it is the duty of priesthood to "protect and provide" while women are to stay at home.
• etc. etc. etc.

In light of these cases?

It is not logical to blame the belief system for the actions of those who break its rules.

THAT makes as much sense as blaming the law against shoplifting for the teenager who stole lipstick from the cosmetics counter....

Or blaming the laws against child abuse for the actions of the serial abuser.

You left the church because you didn't like the idea that there are actual, sinful, human beings in it.

Sorry....but Latter-day saints are NOT Saints (capital "S") We are no holier, less sinful or more righteous than anybody else. We believe we have the Truth (capital 'T') but not that WE are any more special or better than anybody else.

It is only those who have unreasonable expectations that demand that we be so.

Sorry. But we are people. We are a people who tries hard, but since we ARE people, a bunch of us will fail. Some of us will fail spectacularly, and others will be hurt by that.

It's not right. It's not good. But the actions of a very few people who misuse their positions and authority do not prove that the church is 'not true.' It just proves that THEY aren't living the religion they claim to belong to.

 

[idea]

We are no holier, less sinful or more righteous than anybody else.

so... you do not believe in the priesthood? or expect spiritual guidance etc.? Nothing different inside than outside the church?

' It just proves that THEY aren't living the religion they claim to belong to.

It is about more than the abuser - it is about all who know about the abuse and do not report it, about those who claim to have the spirit and claim to give callings etc. through the spirit and yet do NOT have the spirit - for abuse to exist, and in same cases continue for years without being stopped - that involves quite a few people by the end of it.

 

[Jane.Doe]

I used to think no one was tested beyond their limits. I do not think that anymore. I was shown my limit - held dangling by my neck in the air looking back at the cliff to see where my limit was.

Being pushed past your personal limit is different than being set up to fail. I've been over my limit, but I'm not set up to fail.

innocent children are refined through sexual abuse?

I always thought the best way to learn something was from a master - from a good example. There are an infinite number of ways something can be done wrong - you could spend all eternity seeing bad examples of things... yes "be the change you want to see in the world" and all that, but I am not sure how anyone can force themselves to love others when their heart has been hardened.

I myself have been through the fire of abuse- it is horrible and not something I wish on anyone. But as I said earlier, I am stronger and wiser having been through it. I not person to carry on that cycle (my abuser was a childhood victim himself), but I am different. And I stand today to help those others that need help and be strong.

 

[Katzpur]

Strange, I used to hope it was led by g-d. I guess the LDS church is no different from any other human-led organization. Thanks for clarifying.

You're a nice person, idea, but your naivety is mind-blowing.

 

[Watchmen]

idea, it’s terrible what happened, but the way you’re going about this seems all wrong. You are understandably fueled by anger, but the points you are trying to make fall flat because of that.

 

[idea]

Being pushed past your personal limit is different than being set up to fail. I've been over my limit, but I'm not set up to fail.

I myself have been through the fire of abuse- it is horrible and not something I wish on anyone. But as I said earlier, I am stronger and wiser having been through it. I not person to carry on that cycle (my abuser was a childhood victim himself), but I am different. And I stand today to help those others that need help and be strong.

I was determined not to let the cycle continue - did everything humanly possible to protect those kids... well, now thanks to a few "high priests" the cycle has continued. I thought I was over my past - it's easier to deal with your own tests (non-LDS), quite another thing to see those you love harmed (LDS).

 

[idea]

idea, it’s terrible what happened, but the way you’re going about this seems all wrong. You are understandably fueled by anger, but the points you are trying to make fall flat because of that.

So how would you have handled it? You think I should continue to have faith in the priesthood? You think I should continue to have faith in LDS church leadership? That I should not be creeped out by PPI's, forgive and forget, and keep going along with the program - is that what you would do?

 

[idea]

You're a nice person, idea, but your naivety is mind-blowing.

I'm disappointed Katz, I thought you would have better answers for me than that.
People who leave the church, who "attack" the church, we don't want to be attacked back - we do not want to be hated, we just want answers.

 

[Watchmen]

So how would you have handled it? You think I should continue to have faith in the priesthood? You think I should continue to have faith in LDS church leadership? That I should not be creeped out by PPI's, forgive and forget, and keep going along with the program - is that what you would do?

Nope. You totally missed the point. You essentially venting makes your points fall flat.

 

[idea]

Nope. You totally missed the point. You essentially venting makes your points fall flat.

Answer the question - how would you react? Those who have not experienced this kind of thing I guess just cannot understand the level of pain and hurt involved here. I do not blame you for not understanding - I do find it sad that so many LDS are not capable of being empathetic towards victims. Cognitive dissonance? Refuse to believe that this sort of thing has and does happen? would rather stay in an imaginary bubble where the church is true and all you have to do is say a prayer to help someone? ... vs. actually comforting and helping those who have in reality been hurt?

People are more important to protect than organizations.

Do you worship your church? or do you worship g-d? Do you have faith that your church - man-made, man-led will save you, or is there some other entity that is really supposed to do the saving?

Are you willing to hold the welfare of the church above the welfare of children?