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Sexuality and Choice...

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
homosexual couples cannot reproduce together, they have to use other means such as a surrogate or artificial insemination or Adopt. Either way. The children are provided via a sperm and egg, sexual reproduction is the only possible way to reproduce.
they cannot reproduce as a couple, it requires scientific intervention (or infidelity).

Neither can infertile couples. Should they also be punished by society? They require all of the things mentioned above. Sterilitity is as genetic as homosexuality and should not be punishable by exclusion by society. We shouldn't act like animals and exclude those who are different.

They are already treated equally. They can marry any member of the opposite sex whom they chose and raise a family and have all the benefits of marriage. IF you chose otherwise you should get no such benefits.
And before you say anything, This cannot compare to sterility in heterosexual couple because that is not behavioral.

Give me 2 good reasons why same sex marriage should be avoided without using scripture.

Yes i can because homosexuality is not something you can switch off. Its in their bones. They should not be punished for the way God, yes, God!!!!!!!!1 made them right?

They are denied a civil right because of who they choose to marry. Thats not equality.

Thank you for noticing my arguments are based in scientific data and established social traditions.

Social traditions once again have and will continue to prove detrimental to the society they attempt to govern.
 

JMorris

Democratic Socialist
what exactly does the ability to reproduce have to do with marriage?

if homosexuality is a choice, isnt heterosexuality also a choice?

these questions are for anyone who believes homosexuality to be a choice.
can you please point out what age you were when you decided your sexual orientation?
how hard was it to decide?
how long did it take you to decide what sex you preferred?
could you, at any time, drop your current sexual orientation and choose the other?
could you simply choose to go from being attracted to a woman (or man) & enjoying sex with a woman (or man) to being attracted to men (or women) & enjoying sex with a man (or woman)?
are you ever tempted by members of your same sex, but choose to not act on those temptations, and stay hetero?

if you didnt choose to be heterosexual, how exactly can you claim that homosexuality is a choice?
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
Actually that is what makes cultures so strong is that the family model is static. It is how humans naturally congregate and live and have survived through recorded history. all other models fail.
And yet it has to go. Any tradition who would prohibit differences because they are differences are unworthy of humanity. We can do better.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
Neither are other genetic disorders.
And neither is homosexuality.

The reason that homosexuality must be a genetic disorder (if it is genetic) is because it is counter-productive to the natural order of a species that reproduces sexually. Anything that inhibits the desire to reproduce sexually would be considered a disorder because it would extinct the species. evolution will never cause genetic code to be changed that would inhibit the reproduction of the species unless it was Natural Selection. Which cannot be the case because homosexuality has existed since near recorded history.
And I am saying that the well being of the specie is not relevant to calling something a disorder. Fact is I do not care if I have a behaviour that inhibits my ability to have children, as someone who has lived with a disorder his entire life I know what the term implies and it has to have some sort of negative effect on the individual in question. Homosexuality does not. Therefore it is not a disorder.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
Which is why I am using logical reasoning to disprove the myth that homosexuality is normal and should not be accepted as normal. Morality aside.
The term normal is thrown around so much that it has lost all its meaning. The question remains, if something does not harm anyone or affect anyone negatively, and if acceptance would be a huge step forward for humanity, why should we not accept it?
 

ThereIsNoSpoon

Active Member
Yes, I would have that same tolerance for heterosexuals who want to be homosexual.
Well, this is a fair attitude.

No. But lack of a successful therapy doesn't mean that there isn't one. I have yet to see an objective study of cures for cancer that yielded the result "there is a cure X that does the job". Does that mean we should stop trying to find a cure? There are those with cancer who don't want cancer and would take a cure. There are those with physical aspects of themselves that they would rather not have and have plastic surgery preformed. There are those with mental states that they do not like and want changed. I see no reason why a person who's sexuality is not as they want it should be stigmatized for trying to change it. Neither do I see a reason why the person who tries to help them change it has done anything criminal.
There are clinical studies that actually show the progress and effectiveness in cancer treatment. Of course there is no guarantee for each and every individual.
However there has not been any such study for the "treatment" of sexual preference.

I don't. I'm sure the field of psychology could come up with a way to do it. However, I believe that there is a specific way a human being should attempt to live his/her life and I believe so based on my religious values. My religion also teaches that if one is naturally inclined to a certain action that goes against those religious values, a person can successfully change that natural inclination.

Hence, I believe that a religious organization could come up with an appropriate therapy. We demean the status of the common man's ability to act when we limit our use of the word "valid" to the work done by scientists.
I think you commit a grave mistake here.
If your religion tells you something about sexual preferences of humans and if that something is true then it should reflect itself in the scientific knowledge unless you think that God was not capable of creation that is empirically verifiable and relies on totally blind belief in some scripture that more than enough people doubt on not naturally unreasonable grounds.

In other words. Religious values do not count for someone like me as long as these religious values and teachings are not reflected in "neutral" observable nature.

But we have a far greater problem.

You say that science especially psychology might have a cure or find one. When you say that you should keep in mind that exactly those two declare homosexual preferences as perfectly normal. They are neither a desease nor an errorneous mental state nor a choice. If you include other fields of science (like biology with its information about other "nonconcious" species and their behaviour, then it should make you halt for a second and ponder the question if (at least) your understanding of the specific topic in your religion corresponds to reality as we can see it by non-subjective means.

As i said before I DO agree with you that IF someone WANTS to change his preference then he should be allowed to do so or to try to do so.
I do not agree that any religious organization, especially those that actively follow a dogma that some sexual preferences per default have to be a choice or wrong has any right to claim having an objective therapy, especially not if that was not verified by neutral organizations.

It is the belief of my religion that a person can change their natural proclivities through discipline and meditation. In other words, I believe a person can successfully change any of their natural desires.
I would disagree. I think he can actively supress them but in most cases not without consequences.
You might ask yourself the following question: "Am I able to love and feel sexual desire for men?"
What is the answer you honestly would give yourself. In my case for example i must clearly say "no, i am not able to do so".
 

mohammed_beiruti

Active Member
For those that believe that a person's sexual preferences is a choice rather than an innate trait...

1. What evidence do you have to support this assertation?
2. Why would someone choose to make a decision that quite often results in physical and social alienation from family and friends?
3. What evidence would you require to change your opinion that sexual preference is a choice?

hetrosexual prefrence is an innate trait of each one us since we born.
But, human can change this innate trait, .....how?
by convincing themselves that the ugly dirty behaviors are very cute and nice.

for example, when someone start to smoke, first he can feel that his body is refusing that practice. but when he used to it, his body start to accept it.

in addition, physical structure for our human body is designed for hetrosexuals.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
hetrosexual prefrence is an innate trait of each one us since we born.
Not if you are homosexual.

But, human can change this innate trait, .....how?
by convincing themselves that the ugly dirty behaviors are very cute and nice.

for example, when someone start to smoke, first he can feel that his body is refusing that practice. but when he used to it, his body start to accept it.
Not the cause of homosexuality.

in addition, physical structure for our human body is designed for hetrosexuals.
Correction, it is designed so that for there to be children a man and a woman must have sex. Homosexuals can do that, and since many homosexuals have kids, they do that.
 

ThereIsNoSpoon

Active Member
hetrosexual prefrence is an innate trait of each one us since we born.
But, human can change this innate trait, .....how?
by convincing themselves that the ugly dirty behaviors are very cute and nice.

for example, when someone start to smoke, first he can feel that his body is refusing that practice. but when he used to it, his body start to accept it.

in addition, physical structure for our human body is designed for hetrosexuals.
You didn't actually answer any of the three questions that you quoted.
 

Zorro1227

Active Member
The funny thing is that marriages were arranged by the family. Girls were usually promised (engaged) by the time they were 10 or 12 at the latest... So the rapist would more than likely have found himself an engaged girl ------ and you know what that means...

So are you saying you approve of the raping of girls under 10 or 12? The scripture is clear. The god of the bible is an unjust and disgusting god.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
You're not going to believe this, but not all heterosexual couples want to have kids. Should we not allow them to marry?
If someone does not feel the desire to have kids or simply don't want them, I feel they are ungrateful for their existence. But we are talking about a choice there. As homosexuals assert, their desires are not a conscious choice so this argument does not apply.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
Neither can infertile couples. Should they also be punished by society? They require all of the things mentioned above. Sterilitity is as genetic as homosexuality and should not be punishable by exclusion by society. We shouldn't act like animals and exclude those who are different.
Again, Infertility is not behavioral. Homosexuality is.



Give me 2 good reasons why same sex marriage should be avoided without using scripture.
Already have, and when have i quoted scripture in this thread. I have not once.

Yes i can because homosexuality is not something you can switch off. Its in their bones. They should not be punished for the way God, yes, God!!!!!!!!1 made them right?
Why are you bringing religion into this discussion when i have not?

They are denied a civil right because of who they choose to marry. Thats not equality.
It idea that marriage is a civil right is a misnomer, It is a civil privilege with prerequisites.

Social traditions once again have and will continue to prove detrimental to the society they attempt to govern.
Not when the social tradition is based around the fundamental principle of reproduction of a species.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
And yet it has to go. Any tradition who would prohibit differences because they are differences are unworthy of humanity. We can do better.
How is denying the fundamentals of human existence at a genetic level better for humanity?
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
How is denying the fundamentals of human existence at a genetic level better for humanity?
The traditional family has nothing to do with genetics. And fact is we humans have done it well so far, fact is homosexuality as it is has literally no real effect on the population or the survival of the specie, and fact is we are not meant to be baby producing factories.
 

Commoner

Headache
If someone does not feel the desire to have kids or simply don't want them, I feel they are ungrateful for their existence. But we are talking about a choice there. As homosexuals assert, their desires are not a conscious choice so this argument does not apply.

Answer the question please, should we stop couples that do not want to have children from getting married? Why (not)?
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
The term normal is thrown around so much that it has lost all its meaning. The question remains, if something does not harm anyone or affect anyone negatively, and if acceptance would be a huge step forward for humanity, why should we not accept it?
Normality is based on the bell curve of a certain behavior or action. Seeing as the majority of people are heterosexual.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
The traditional family has nothing to do with genetics. And fact is we humans have done it well so far, fact is homosexuality as it is has literally no real effect on the population or the survival of the specie, and fact is we are not meant to be baby producing factories.
Actually it does. Our biology is geared toward monogamy between men and women. During pregnancy women emit pheromones that males biology is geard to be attracted to. At a physiological level, this is designed to "keep the male around" to take care of the woman and baby.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
Answer the question please, should we stop couples that do not want to have children from getting married? Why (not)?
Personally, I think it's ridiculous for people to get married with the intent of not having children. As i have stated before, desiring to not have children notes a complete disregard for your own existence.

And before you start hollering and screaming, Intent is different than capacity (such as desiring to have children to find you you are incapable of it)
 
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