Sharia Activist Linda Sarsour to give Commencement at CUNY

[icehorse]

If you don't actually believe Sarcour wants these things (And she's made it pretty clear she doesn't) then you must conclude that Sharia doesn't mean the same thing to all Muslims. Making your post a false dichotomy.

Is Sarsour proposing a reformed Islam? If so, I'll back her.

 

[icehorse]

B

But if we are truly for free speech we must allow pro-Shariah activists the equal opportunity to express their opinions as well.

In my view shutting their speeches out of places of critical thinking such as university does not give them equal freedom of expression.

Agreed, and it's a fine point. And in that case we must also fight for folks like Maher and Ali to speak. And yes, even folks like Coulter, who's currently struggling to speak at Berkeley. So this is a great example, I think Coulter has a horrible message, but I think Berkeley is wrong to shut her down.

 

[icehorse]

I agree that capital punishment for apostasy should not be allowed in our society. On the other hand, Muslims insisting that they should have the freedom to pray while at work or have access to halal food at schools should be allowed.

Religious practices should not be above the law. If you want to take extra breaks at work to pray, then that's something to negotiate for, not sue for. You want "access" to Halal foods? Great, I want my kids to have access to non-GMO, organic, gluten-free and sugar free foods.

 

[von bek]

Religious practices should not be above the law. If you want to take extra breaks at work to pray, then that's something to negotiate for, not sue for. You want "access" to Halal foods? Great, I want my kids to have access to non-GMO, organic, gluten-free and sugar free foods.

Typically, you only sue when negotiations have already failed. Point taken, though.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And I gotta say, there are many folks who think that a commencement speech ought to be about the graduates...

That's my point. It's not about Coulture, or Maher, or Sarsour, it's about the graduates. It's just fine to hold negative opinions of those people, but a graduation commencement isn't the place to be airing it.

 

[Lyndon]

There can be only one rule of law. I'd like you to consider what might on the surface seem "not dangerous": in the UK there are many Sharia courts that are limited to only family, civil matters. Seems innocuous enough, but the occurrence of violent coercion behind closed doors is high. So a seemingly innocuous "Sharia civil court" is in fact allowing horrible misogyny.

As far as the danger of the far right, I'm with you. But both camps (the far right and Islamists), can be criticized independently.

To put it another way, I've become a centrist and I see most forms of extremism as being dangerous. Far right extremism, far left extremism, Islamism, Oligarchy... all are forms of extremism, and all are dangerous.

Anti Islamist extremism, one of the ugliest extremist viewpoints!!

 

[Lyndon]

Every Jewish person on this forum should be massively offended by that comment. Please tell us more of the holocaust that Muslims living in the west are experiencing...

The same one the Jews were living in 1935.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

a reformed

Imo that's a loaded term. Like saying that Jews who have a non-literal approach to Levitical law are 'reformed jews,' made further confusing because 'reformed Judaism' is already a thing and not that.

From what little she's said about it, she's said that some application of Sharia would be healthy for the government, such as revised laws about interest fixing. And I don't disagree with her there. Just because something comes from Muslim faith or Jewish faith or Christian faith doesn't make it inherently bad. But it also doesn't make it inherently good either. The benefit v cost of a religious idea might tip in favor of the religious idea, but it should be that benefit cost analysis, not whether it's part of the faith.

That's a secular system to me (and also very close to the founding fathers of the US that I can tell). Religious ideas are neither adopted out of hand or dismissed out of hand.
And the vast majority of Muslims I know personally here in the U.S. share that sentiment. Believing that Sharia is a personal code for them to follow with some good things which can be applied to civil law. None of them believe things like apostasy laws are part of that (that I've met.)

 

[Notanumber]

I am not in favour of halal slaughter.

Secret halal slaughterhouse film reveals 'horrific' animal abuse

Animals should be treated with respect and killed as humanely as possible. This requirement has to take precedence over any religion or culture.

 

[icehorse]

Anti Islamist extremism, one of the ugliest extremist viewpoints!!

I'm a defender of universal human rights and secularism. Both of those things are directly counter to Islamism. So are you saying that you're against universal human rights and secularism?

 

[sun rise]

Every Jewish person on this forum should be massively offended by that comment. Please tell us more of the holocaust that Muslims living in the west are experiencing...

To be more precise, my father and mother fled Russia due to pogroms. The antisemitism I experienced here when I was growing up is still fresh in my mind with echoes of the early 1930's still alive being fanned by the alt-right terrorists running around the US today espousing Nazi sentiments.

I know how such things start and I was oppose them totally even when they are tiny. And given that they have a home in the current regime in power, I register my utter opposition to the bigotry that is being promoted by terrorist militias and government agencies.

 

[icehorse]

Imo that's a loaded term. Like saying that Jews who have a non-literal approach to Levitical law are 'reformed jews,' made further confusing because 'reformed Judaism' is already a thing and not that.

From what little she's said about it, she's said that some application of Sharia would be healthy for the government, such as revised laws about interest fixing. And I don't disagree with her there. Just because something comes from Muslim faith or Jewish faith or Christian faith doesn't make it inherently bad. But it also doesn't make it inherently good either. The benefit v cost of a religious idea might tip in favor of the religious idea, but it should be that benefit cost analysis, not whether it's part of the faith.

That's a secular system to me (and also very close to the founding fathers of the US that I can tell). Religious ideas are neither adopted out of hand or dismissed out of hand.
And the vast majority of Muslims I know personally here in the U.S. share that sentiment. Believing that Sharia is a personal code for them to follow with some good things which can be applied to civil law. None of them believe things like apostasy laws are part of that (that I've met.)

Can I summarize what you're here with?: Sarsour is seriously cherry-picking Islamic doctrine.

If so, then THAT'S reform. But I don't actually think she's doing that.

 

[icehorse]

To be more precise, my father and mother fled Russia due to pogroms. The antisemitism I experienced here when I was growing up is still fresh in my mind with echoes of the early 1930's still alive being fanned by the alt-right terrorists running around the US today espousing Nazi sentiments.

I know how such things start and I was oppose them totally even when they are tiny. And given that they have a home in the current regime in power, I register my utter opposition to the bigotry that is being promoted by terrorist militias and government agencies.

I'm not a fan of the alt-right or of Neo-Nazis. And to be critical of Islam is independent of such extremism.

 

[Lyndon]

I'm a defender of universal human rights and secularism. Both of those things are directly counter to Islamism. So are you saying that you're against universal human rights and secularism?

If they're coming from you, yes.

 

[icehorse]

If they're coming from you, yes.

More ad hominem!

Please speak to the ideas Lyndon. You are either in support of universal human rights or you're not. You're either in support of secularism, or you're not.

Stand up and be counted!

 

[Lyndon]

i am not a supporter of secularism, its been the degeneration of our society, and as for human rights I am in favour of them in many different forms, they are not universal.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Can I summarize what you're here with?: Sarsour is seriously cherry-picking Islamic doctrine.

If so, then THAT'S reform. But I don't actually think she's doing that.

Cherry picking is your personal opinion, not any sort of objective criteria. Any more than it would be for Jews who see Levitical law differently than you do. Especially being as it's tempered by oral law and other considerations. The same is true of the number of different ways people see Sharia.
And again, that's not reform. Reform is a specific movement with specific guidelines. Plenty of people who are Muslim and who believe in a personal Sharia are not part of that movement.

What you're doing doesn't seem to be summary but reduction to the absurd.

 

[icehorse]

Cherry picking is your personal opinion, not any sort of objective criteria. Any more than it would be for Jews who see Levitical law differently than you do. Especially being as it's tempered by oral law and other considerations. The same is true of the number of different ways people see Sharia.
And again, that's not reform. Reform is a specific movement with specific guidelines. Plenty of people who are Muslim and who believe in a personal Sharia are not part of that movement.

What you're doing doesn't seem to be summary but reduction to the absurd.

I'm sorry how is it reduction? I'm simply asking what aspects of Sharia are the good bits and which should be discarded? If enough are to be discarded, then at some point that dreaded word "reform" starts to make sense, no?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I'm sorry how is it reduction? I'm simply asking what aspects of Sharia are the good bits and which should be discarded? If enough are to be discarded, then at some point that dreaded word "reform" starts to make sense, no?

*sigh* No, it doesn't. Because reform isn't about 'discarding parts of Sharia' to them, nor is it with other personal Sharia beliefs, so it's just trying to weaselword a reductionist meaning onto Sharia that you know is not what they believe in. Which is like telling a Christian either people who work on the Sabbath should be stoned or you're 'getting rid of part of the bible.' That's reductionist, and ignores their actual beliefs on Sabbath to push forward your own narrative.

What I'm talking about isn't unique to the reform movement so it doesn't make sense to use reform with it.

 

[icehorse]

*sigh* No, it doesn't. Because reform isn't about 'discarding parts of Sharia' to them, nor is it with other personal Sharia beliefs, so it's just trying to weaselword a reductionist meaning onto Sharia that you know is not what they believe in. Which is like telling a Christian either people who work on the Sabbath should be stoned or you're 'getting rid of part of the bible.' That's reductionist, and ignores their actual beliefs on Sabbath to push forward your own narrative.

When did you become an expert on Islamic reform? I think Islamic reform well could be as simple as discarding many aspects of Sharia and acknowledging that some parts of the scripture and Muhammad's life should be retired from consideration.

Seriously, what's your best guess as to what parts of Islam you think Sarsour is in favor of? The one idea I got is "no charging of interest on bank loans". What else?