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Sharing an observation about atheism here on RF

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
This is nonsensical. There is no requirement for an explicit claim to be made. Believing in the existence of God is the claim, so your hypothetical doesn't make any sense. If they "believe in deity or deities", they are making the claim that they think deity or deities exist. Remember, there is no requirement for claims to be explicit. Not sure where that even came from.

Even if we use your definition and parameters, your theory of burden of proof makes no sense. It's like saying, ''prove that something is real, to someone who is not recognizing the reality of it''. what you are proposing is not only ridiculous, it's actually an impossibility.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I think there's something missing here with people talking past each other a bit. Let me see if I understand what you mean here. Are you meaning to make a distinction between someone making a personal statement versus a statement that they expect others to accept (e.g., a "claim")? It seems that this is an important distinction to make.
A "claim" is an assertion of the truth of something, typically one that is disputed or in doubt. There are "implicit" and "explicit" claims. Holding a belief is asserting, implicitly, that what you believe is true.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I think there's something missing here with people talking past each other a bit. Let me see if I understand what you mean here. Are you meaning to make a distinction between someone making a personal statement versus a statement that they expect others to accept (e.g., a "claim")? It seems that this is an important distinction to make.
That's true. Though, ''claim'', if not a declaration or argument, wouldn't make sense, as any distinctive thing, imo. So, I am assuming it's use as a argument, or such.

otherwise, why use the word, ''claim''?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Even if we use your definition and parameters, your theory of burden of proof makes no sense. It's like saying, ''prove that something is real, to someone who is not recognizing the reality of it''. what you are proposing is not only ridiculous, it's actually an impossibility.
This makes no sense. Why would you need to prove that something exists to something who already acknowledges that it exists. Theists have the burden to support their claim that God exists. Atheists merely aren't convinced, and find any evidence lacking. It obviously isn't impossible, as many atheists have become theists later on in life. But, you can't expect atheists to provide support for a claim that they aren't making ... namely that God's existence is impossible.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Can you rephrase this. I'm not exactly sure what you are getting at with this. Theism depends on belief in God or gods. Thus, atheism depends on the lack of those beliefs. Beliefs are often arbitrary, and thinking that the evidence for theism is insufficient certainly can be. I fail to see why that would be a problem though.
I think that you are getting jumbled in the arbitrary terms, and concepts, that can be related to theism or atheism. One would be ''believing'' that there is no deity, in the same manner as one would believe in a deity. One might have the ''absence'' of belief, in say, automobiles, (island tribe), as well. The point is that, there is no standard, a point, where one goes from lack of belief, to belief. It's just a word used to describe things we might surmise, or 'know' to be true, etc. To a theist, the atheist has the ''burden of proof''', for example.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I think that you are getting jumbled in the arbitrary terms, and concepts, that can be related to theism or atheism. One would be ''believing'' that there is no deity, in the same manner as one would believe in a deity. One might have the ''absence'' of belief, in say, automobiles, (island tribe), as well. The point is that, there is no standard, a point, where one goes from lack of belief, to belief. It's just a word used to describe things we might surmise, or 'know' to be true, etc. To a theist, the atheist has the ''burden of proof''', for example.
But you are erroneously equating a lack of belief with believing that God cannot exist. That's my point. It isn't one or the other. Many lack belief in both the positive and negative beliefs.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
This makes no sense.
Actually, it does.
Why would you need to prove that something exists to something who already acknowledges that it exists.
Theists have the burden to support their claim that God exists.
That is what you aren't understanding. They don't have any more of a burden to support their claim, than, say, someone stating that there isn't a deity, or someone claiming the moon is made of green cheese, or that pizza is great, etc etc. You're making arbitrary ''distinctions'', regarding burden of proof.
 
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leibowde84

Veteran Member
Actually, it does.


That is what you aren't understanding. They don't have any more of a burden to support their claim, than, say, someone stating that there isn't a deity, or someone claiming the moon is made of green cheese, or that pizza is great, etc etc. You're making arbitrary ''distinctions'', regarding burden of proof.
My point since the onset of our discussion was that atheism does not necessarily make the claim that "no deities exist". It only requires that someone be without belief, which is often due to them merely being unconvinced. Many atheists say that they don't believe in anything without reason. They certainly don't believe that God exists, but they also wouldn't go so far as to say that they believe that God cannot exist. Thus, they aren't making the claim that "no deities exist". They are just without belief in deities. If evidence or reasoned arguments come about that convince them, they would be open to changing their beliefs. But, until that day arises, they are merely "weak atheists", lacking belief in both the existence of God or gods and the impossibility of God or gods.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Actually, it does.


That is what you aren't understanding. They don't have any more of a burden to support their claim, than, say, someone stating that there isn't a deity, or someone claiming the moon is made of green cheese, or that pizza is great, etc etc. You're making arbitrary ''distinctions'', regarding burden of proof.
In other words, "atheism" does not make the claim that "no deities exist". That is a claim that you are falsely assigning to all atheists, which certainly isn't the case. They merely are unconvinced that God or gods do exist.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
In other words, "atheism" does not make the claim that "no deities exist". That is a claim that you are falsely assigning to all atheists, which certainly isn't the case. They merely are unconvinced that God or gods do exist.
Actually, I'm not using the word ''claim'', in the manner you are. Claim seems to imply a position for an argument, whereas, 'theism', is a belief, and not necessarily an argument or any claimed position, made.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Actually, I'm not using the word ''claim'', in the manner you are. Claim seems to imply a position for an argument, whereas, 'theism', is a belief, and not necessarily an argument or any claimed position, made.
A belief is an implicit claim. When one "believes" in the existence of God, they are implicitly making the assertion that they think God exists. When one says that theism makes a claim, it means that theism is the acceptance of the existence of God being true. Atheists are unwilling to accept this as true due to lack of supporting evidence/reasoning.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
A belief is an implicit claim. When one "believes" in the existence of God, they are implicitly making the assertion that they think God exists. When one says that theism makes a claim, it means that theism is the acceptance of the existence of God being true. Atheists are unwilling to accept this as true due to lack of supporting evidence/reasoning.
What does this have to do 'burden of proof'? If someone said to you, that mars does not exist, you cannot ''prove'', to that person, that mars exist. You could present evidence, but that is not 'proof', of course.
Now, /I'm going to assume, you think that mars exists, if you don't, just let me know/, for you, would not the ''burden of proof'', fall upon the person making the claim that mars does not exist? //Even, though, you cannot prove your position//.
That is why the burden of proof is arbitrary.
//If someone did not present an argument of mars not existing, but simply lacked the belief in mars, then your belief in mars, does not become a ''burden of proof''.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
What does this have to do 'burden of proof'? If someone said to you, that mars does not exist, you cannot ''prove'', to that person, that mars exist. You could present evidence, but that is not 'proof', of course.
Now, /I'm going to assume, you think that mars exists, if you don't, just let me know/, for you, would not the ''burden of proof'', fall upon the person making the claim that mars does not exist? //Even, though, you cannot prove your position//.
That is why the burden of proof is arbitrary.
//If someone did not present an argument of mars not existing, but simply lacked the belief in mars, then your belief in mars, does not become a ''burden of proof''.
Burden of proof merely means the burden of supporting ones belief. It doesn't require something to be proved to a certainty. Proof in this context merely means "evidence". And, theists hold the belief while atheists do not. This, theists have the burden of supporting their belief.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
A "claim" is an assertion of the truth of something, typically one that is disputed or in doubt.

If that is the case for you, I don't see how "there aren't god(s)" is any less of a claim than "there are god(s)" considering both are "assertions" of "truth" and ones that are "disputed" or "doubted" by others.

Going back to what I said about personal statements, if a person says "there aren't/are god(s)" and this is not disputed or doubted by themselves, nor is it being asserted to anyone other than themselves (i.e., is descriptive of what they feel and in no way intended to be prescriptive), how is that a "claim?" Doesn't seem to me that "claim" is the right word to use. Sometimes people are just stating what they feel, folks. I don't understand why there is so much cross-examination and interrogation of "there are/aren't god(s)" and yet not "I have (or don't have) a headache."
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member

If that is the case for you, I don't see how "there aren't god(s)" is any less of a claim than "there are god(s)" considering both are "assertions" of "truth" and ones that are "disputed" or "doubted" by others.

Going back to what I said about personal statements, if a person says "there aren't/are god(s)" and this is not disputed or doubted by themselves, nor is it being asserted to anyone other than themselves (i.e., is descriptive of what they feel and in no way intended to be prescriptive), how is that a "claim?" Doesn't seem to me that "claim" is the right word to use. Sometimes people are just stating what they feel, folks. I don't understand why there is so much cross-examination and interrogation of "there are/aren't god(s)" and yet not "I have (or don't have) a headache."
I am not making that claim. Many atheists do not believe that god cannot exist. They merely have not been convinced of either belief. They still lack belief in god or god's though.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I am not making that claim. Many atheists do not believe that god cannot exist. They merely have not been convinced of either belief. They still lack belief in god or god's though.

Fair enough. I think there needs to be a different word for that, though. For some, apatheism. For others, perhaps ignosticism or agnosticism.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member

If that is the case for you, I don't see how "there aren't god(s)" is any less of a claim than "there are god(s)" considering both are "assertions" of "truth" and ones that are "disputed" or "doubted" by others.

Going back to what I said about personal statements, if a person says "there aren't/are god(s)" and this is not disputed or doubted by themselves, nor is it being asserted to anyone other than themselves (i.e., is descriptive of what they feel and in no way intended to be prescriptive), how is that a "claim?" Doesn't seem to me that "claim" is the right word to use. Sometimes people are just stating what they feel, folks. I don't understand why there is so much cross-examination and interrogation of "there are/aren't god(s)" and yet not "I have (or don't have) a headache."
My point is that there is a common misconception that atheists actively believe that God does not exist. For example, if someone came up to me and asked me if John Doe existed, I would need sufficient evidence to believe either way. I would certainly lack belief in the existence of John doe though.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member

Fair enough. I think there needs to be a different word for that, though. For some, apatheism. For others, perhaps ignosticism or agnosticism.
It seems that the only need for a new word is due to theists erroneously forcing beliefs on atheists that just aren't necessarily accurate. Just like theism, it is a very general term for good reason.
 
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