Shi'a Muslim and Bahai Only: Rejection of Qaim

[InvestigateTruth]

There are many Hadithes, that shows the denial and rejection of the Qaim. Here are some Hadithes:

Imam Baqir said:

"....they will disagree in the Book that will be with the Qaim, who will bring it to them, so much so that a large number of people will deny him....."

Source: Bihar-alanwar. Also here: http://lib.eshia.ir/13033/12/402

Imam Sadiq said:

“When the Qaim (a.s.) appears, those who have thought themselves as his followers will apostatize and those, who are somehow like the worshippers of the sun and the moon, will believe in him.” Source: Bihar-alanwar


There are other Hadithes, at the time of Qaim there is so much misinterpretation in the teachings of Islam, and they will fight with Qaim using Quran.



1. According to Hadithes, what are the reasons that the Qaim will be denied?

2. What was the reason, Prophet Muhammad and other Prophets were rejected?

3. Are there similarities about the root cause of denials in every Age a Manifestation appeared? For example, the Jews did not believe their Messiah would come with a New divinely revealed Book, so they rejected Jesus. Could one of the reasons of rejection of Qaim be the same?

 

[mojtaba]

Imam Baqir said:

"....they will disagree in the Book that will be with the Qaim, who will bring it to them, so much so that a large number of people will deny him....."

Source: Bihar-alanwar. Also here: http://lib.eshia.ir/13033/12/402

That book which has mentioned in the Hadith, on contrary what Baha'is claim, is not another book besides the Noble Qur'an[i.e., Bayan, the book of the big lair Bab(May Allah increase his painful torment in the deepest places of the Hell) who claimed that he is Mahdi, while he was not, and deceived some ignorant people]

According to authentic Hadiths, this book[i.e., Mushaf of Ali] is the Qur'an that Imam Ali wrote and collected it according to Prophet's order, nothing else. The Verses and Chapters of this Book is identical with the Qur'an of our time, but it has also some explanations about the time of revealation of the verses, persons whom verses adress, repealing and the repealed verses, etc.

Read ff Hadith,

محمد بن يحيى ، عن محمد بن الحسين، عن عبد الرحمن بن أبي هاشم ، عن سالم بن سلمة قال٬ قال ابی عبد الله : يقوم القائم فإذا قام القائم ( عليه السلام ) قرأ كتاب الله عز وجل على حده وأخرج المصحف الذي كتبه علي ( عليه السلام )ـ​

Muhammad ibn Yahya from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn, from Abd al-Rahman ibn Abi Hashim, from Salim ibn Salamah who has said the following,
Imam Sadiq said, " The Qa'im will rise up. So when he rises up, will recite the Book of Allah according to its bound and Qa'im will bring the Scripture[Qur'an] which Ali wrote it "
(Al-Kafi, vol. 2, pg. 633)
The chain of the narrators of this Hadith is Sahih[authentic](See this page which has proved the authentisity of the tradition)

2. Imam Ali after demise of dear Prophet(peace be upon him and his progeny), brought the Qur'an [which he collected it according to Prophet's order] to some Sahaba(companions of prophet Muhammad), but they rejected Mushaf of Ali. So Imam Ali said to them,

فقال عليه السلام : نعم إذا قام القائم من ولدي ، يظهره وَ يَحْمِلُ‏ النَّاسَ‏ عَلَيْه‏ فتجري السنة به صلوات الله عليه​

Yes. When the Qa'im from my descendants rises up, he will apear it [the Qur'an which Imam Ali collected] and lead people according to it and the Sunnah[the practises of Prophet Muhammad] will be propagt through him[Qa'im] bleeses of Allah be upon him.
(Bihar al-Anwar, v89, p43)

There are other Hadithes, at the time of Qaim there is so much misinterpretation in the teachings of Islam, and they will fight with Qaim using Quran.
Source: Bihar-alanwar

Say also the other part of the Hadiths, i.e., And Imam Mahdi after some of them do not accept his true interpritation of Qur'an, battels with them and then overcomes and destroys them.

But, Bab[false Mahdi of Baha'is] was overcomed and destroyed by true Muslims.

1. According to Hadithes, what are the reasons that the Qaim will be denied?

2. What was the reason, Prophet Muhammad and other Prophets were rejected?

3. Are there similarities about the root cause of denials in every Age a Manifestation appeared? For example, the Jews did not believe their Messiah would come with a New divinely revealed Book, so they rejected Jesus. Could one of the reasons of rejection of Qaim be the same?

When Hadhrat Qa'im rises up in the future, bigoted indivituals of Baha'is who believe in Bab[the false Mahdi] and will not accept that he was not Qa'im, will be between who reject him.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

For anyone reading this thread: OPs ultimate goal is to state that since the Bab, the fake Qaim the Baha'is believe in, was rejected by the people then he is the true Qaim (according to flawed arguments of founder of Baha'ism in the book of Iqan).

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That book which has mentioned in the Hadith, on contrary what Baha'is claim, is not another book besides the Noble Qur'an[i.e., Bayan, the book of the big lair Bab(May Allah increase his painful torment in the deepest places of the Hell) who claimed that he is Mahdi, while he was not, and deceived some ignorant people]

According to authentic Hadiths, this book[i.e., Mushaf of Ali] is the Qur'an that Imam Ali wrote and collected it according to Prophet's order, nothing else. The Verses and Chapters of this Book is identical with the Qur'an of our time, but it has also some explanations about the time of revealation of the verses, persons whom verses adress, repealing and the repealed verses, etc.

Read ff Hadith,

محمد بن يحيى ، عن محمد بن الحسين، عن عبد الرحمن بن أبي هاشم ، عن سالم بن سلمة قال٬ قال ابی عبد الله : يقوم القائم فإذا قام القائم ( عليه السلام ) قرأ كتاب الله عز وجل على حده وأخرج المصحف الذي كتبه علي ( عليه السلام )ـ​

Muhammad ibn Yahya from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn, from Abd al-Rahman ibn Abi Hashim, from Salim ibn Salamah who has said the following,
Imam Sadiq said, " The Qa'im will rise up. So when he rises up, will recite the Book of Allah according to its bound and Qa'im will bring the Scripture[Qur'an] which Ali wrote it "
(Al-Kafi, vol. 2, pg. 633)
The chain of the narrators of this Hadith is Sahih[authentic](See this page which has proved the authentisity of the tradition)

2. Imam Ali after demise of dear Prophet(peace be upon him and his progeny), brought the Qur'an [which he collected it according to Prophet's order] to some Sahaba(companions of prophet Muhammad), but they rejected Mushaf of Ali. So Imam Ali said to them,

فقال عليه السلام : نعم إذا قام القائم من ولدي ، يظهره وَ يَحْمِلُ‏ النَّاسَ‏ عَلَيْه‏ فتجري السنة به صلوات الله عليه​

Yes. When the Qa'im from my descendants rises up, he will apear it [the Qur'an which Imam Ali collected] and lead people according to it and the Sunnah[the practises of Prophet Muhammad] will be propagt through him[Qa'im] bleeses of Allah be upon him.
(Bihar al-Anwar, v89, p43)

Dear Mojtaba,

If the Book that Imam Baqir is referring is just a new Quran that Imam Ali wrote it, did not other Imams after Ali have same knowledge as Imam Ali to write that Book? Did not the Imams explain the Quran, and these explanation are still available in Shia Hadithes? What was the need to wait for Qaim to bring that Book?

And how do you explain theses verses of Quran:

".....To each age its Book. What He pleaseth will God abrogate or confirm: for with Him is the source of revelation." Quran 13:38-39

Say also the other part of the Hadiths, i.e., And Imam Mahdi after some of them do not accept his true interpritation of Qur'an, battels with them and then overcomes and destroys them.

But, Bab[false Mahdi of Baha'is] was overcomed and destroyed by true Muslims.


When Hadhrat Qa'im rises up in the future, bigoted indivituals of Baha'is who believe in Bab[the false Mahdi] and will not accept that he was not Qa'im, will be between who reject him.

If being martyred means to be overcomed, then what about Imam Hussein who was Martyred? Was He really defeated in your view?

As Imam Sadiq or Imam Baqir said, whenever the mission of an Imam ended, God takes Him from this World. All Imams of Shia were Martyred and many of the Prophets of the past were killed according to Quran. They were all defeated?


Please, don't bring up the Baha'is belief in Bab in your Directory. I shouldn't talk about that in Shia Directory... I have to follow the Rules of the Forum.
My discussion is only from the Shia Sources.

Thanks!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) say:

“Days of Allah are three: Day of the reappearance of the Qaim, Day of Karra (Rajat) and Judgment Day.”


Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) narrated that someone asked Amirul Momineen (a.s.):

“.... O Amirul Momineen (a.s.), is there a second life before Qiyamat? And then death after that?
He replied: Yes, by Allah, during the period of Rajat there would be more disbelief.”


According to 2 or 3 Hadithes, Qaim has died around the same time, Imam Hussein has returned.

Then it can be seen from these Hadithes, that when Qaim has come and died, then during the Period of Rajjat, there is still more disbelief.
Then how could it be said that, according to Hadithes, during the life of Qaim, the whole earth would become believers and united?

 

[mojtaba]

Dear Mojtaba,

If the Book that Imam Baqir is referring is just a new Quran that Imam Ali wrote it, did not other Imams after Ali have same knowledge as Imam Ali to write that Book? Did not the Imams explain the Quran, and these explanation are still available in Shia Hadithes? What was the need to wait for Qaim to bring that Book?

And how do you explain theses verses of Quran:

".....To each age its Book. What He pleaseth will God abrogate or confirm: for with Him is the source of revelation." Quran 13:38-39

Yes. That book[Qur'an] was with all Imams. They said their sayings from it, but did not give it to others.
According to the sayings of Imam Ali and Imam Sadiq, only Imam Mahdi brings this Qur'an in public..

Translation of that verse is not correct,
There is a written [ordinance] for every term: Allah effaces and confirms whatever He wishes and with Him is the Mother Book.

If being martyred means to be overcomed, then what about Imam Hussein who was Martyred? Was He really defeated in your view?

As Imam Sadiq or Imam Baqir said, whenever the mission of an Imam ended, God takes Him from this World. All Imams of Shia were Martyred and many of the Prophets of the past were killed according to Quran. They were all defeated?


Please, don't bring up the Baha'is belief in Bab in your Directory. I shouldn't talk about that in Shia Directory... I have to follow the Rules of the Forum.
My discussion is only from the Shia Sources.

Thanks!

Yes.Imam Husayn was overcomed physicaly. But he overcomed spiritualy.

But according to Hadiths, Imam Mahdi will overcome both physicaly and spritualy.

 

[mojtaba]

Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) say:

“Days of Allah are three: Day of the reappearance of the Qaim, Day of Karra (Rajat) and Judgment Day.”


Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) narrated that someone asked Amirul Momineen (a.s.):

“.... O Amirul Momineen (a.s.), is there a second life before Qiyamat? And then death after that?
He replied: Yes, by Allah, during the period of Rajat there would be more disbelief.”


According to 2 or 3 Hadithes, Qaim has died around the same time, Imam Hussein has returned.

Then it can be seen from these Hadithes, that when Qaim has come and died, then during the Period of Rajjat, there is still more disbelief.
Then how could it be said that, according to Hadithes, during the life of Qaim, the whole earth would become believers and united?

If you remember what I said about Raj'ah in the thread regarding to Raj'ah , your question would be sloved.

According to the Hadiths, in Raj'ah those who are complete in faith and those who are complete in disbelief will be returned.
(Reference, Bihar al-Anwar,vol6, pg. 260 )

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But according to Hadiths, Imam Mahdi will overcome both physicaly and spritualy.

Please bring a couple of those Hadithes that says or shows, Imam Mahdi is supposed to overcome both physically and spiritually.

Thanks!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If you remember what I said about Raj'ah in the thread regarding to Raj'ah , your question would be sloved.

According to the Hadiths, in Raj'ah those who are complete in faith and those who are complete in disbelief will be returned.
(Reference, Bihar al-Anwar,vol6, pg. 260 )

Yes, I remember.

It is mentioned in Al-Mashikha of Hasan bin Mahbub from Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) that he said regarding the words of the
Almighty Allah:

“Our Lord! twice didst Thou make us subject to death, and twice hast Thou given us life, so we do confess our faults; is there then a way to get out?” (Surah Momin 40:11)

“This verse is specially for those nations who will do Rajat and this will continue till Judgment Day. May the Almighty Allah keep away that unjust
nation.”

According to this Hadith, Rajat continues till Judgement Day. The other Hadith said, that during the period of Rajat, there is more disbelief.
These two Hadithes together shows, until Day of Judgement, there will be more disbelief!

Which obviously contradicts with belief that during the time of Mahdi, everyone will become a believer!
Is it fair to say, only Qaim Himself can explain these Hadithes, and confirm them?

 

[mojtaba]

Please bring a couple of those Hadithes that says or shows, Imam Mahdi is supposed to overcome both physically and spiritually.

Thanks!

العطار ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن عبدالجبار ، عن محمد ابن زياد الازدي ، عن أبان بن عثمان ، عن الثمالي ، عن علي بن الحسين علیه السلام ، عن أبيه علیه السلام، عن جده علیه السلام قال : قال رسول الله صل الله عليه و آله و سلم : الائمة من بعدي اثنا عشر أولهم أنت يا علي ، وآخر هم القائم الذي يفتح الله تعالى ذكره على يديه مشارق الارض ومغاربها
​

Al-Thumali has narrated from Imam Sajjad, and Imam has narrated through his forefathers through Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his progeny), who said the following,

The Imams after me are 12, the first one of them is you, O Ali, and the last one is al-Qa'im who Allah Ta'ala will conquer all the east and the west of the earth by his[Qa'im] hands.
(Bihar al-Anwar, v52, p378)

And many other Hadiths.

Yes, I remember.

It is mentioned in Al-Mashikha of Hasan bin Mahbub from Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) that he said regarding the words of the
Almighty Allah:

“Our Lord! twice didst Thou make us subject to death, and twice hast Thou given us life, so we do confess our faults; is there then a way to get out?” (Surah Momin 40:11)

“This verse is specially for those nations who will do Rajat and this will continue till Judgment Day. May the Almighty Allah keep away that unjust
nation.”

According to this Hadith, Rajat continues till Judgement Day. The other Hadith said, that during the period of Rajat, there is more disbelief.
These two Hadithes together shows, until Day of Judgement, there will be more disbelief!

Which obviously contradicts with belief that during the time of Mahdi, everyone will become a believer!
Is it fair to say, only Qaim Himself can explain these Hadithes, and confirm them?

This verse is not about Raj'ah.
According to our belief, when a person dies, her/his soul goes to Barzakh, so he/she has a Barzakh life.
Indeed, in the time of Qiyamah, through the first Nafkh Sour[dying Nafkh Sour], all living people in this world will die[ the first dying ] and then go to the Barzakh[ the first reliving ]. Then, through this Nafkh Sour in Barzakh world, all people in Barzakh will die[ the second dying ]. Then through the second Nafkh Sour[living Nafkh Sour], all people who died in Barzakh world, will relive in Qiyamah world[the second living].

So disbelievers in Qiyamah will say, O Allah, Twice did You make us die, and twice did You give us life. We admit our sins. Is there any way out [from this plight]?

The first dying is dying in this world. The second one is dying in Barzakh world.
The first living is becoming alive in Barzakh world[ which is after dying in this world ], and the second one is becoming alive in the Qiyamah world[after dying in Barzakh world].

Those Hadiths which say this verse is about Raj'ah, 1. Do not have a strong chain of the narrators 2. Do not match with the verse, because if we suppose this verse is about Raj'ah, the disbelievers should say "O Allah twice did You give us life" and then say "Twice did You make us die". Because in Raj'ah, first the person becomes alive in this word, and then dies, and then becomes alive in this world again, and then dies from this world. So becoming alive is first. But in the verse disbelieverse first say, "Twice did You make us die" and then, "twice did You give us life" in which dying is mentioned firstly.

According to Sahih Hadiths from both Prophet and Imams, if a Hadith opposes Qur'an, it is not a Hadith from Prophet or Imams.

This is our believe, if you have another one, Shia DIR is not for Baha'is beliefs.

 

[mojtaba]

If you remember what I said about Raj'ah in the thread regarding to Raj'ah , your question would be sloved.

According to the Hadiths, in Raj'ah those who are complete in faith and those who are complete in disbelief will be returned.
(Reference, Bihar al-Anwar,vol6, pg. 260 )

In this post, I meant ff Hadith, not the Hadith which you mentioned.

حدثني أبي قال : حدثني ابن أبي عمير ، عن المفضل ، عن أبي عبدالله في قوله « ويوم نحشر من كل أمة فوجا » قال : ليس أحد من المؤمنين قتل إلا يرجع حتى يموت ، ولا يرجع إلا من محض الايمان محضا أو محض الكفر محضاـ​

Imam Sadiq said about the verse"The day We shall resurrect from every nation a group", ' those who are complete in faith and those who are complete in disbelief will be returned[in Raj'ah]. '
(Bihar, v53, p53)
I said the source incorrect. This is true.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

العطار ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن عبدالجبار ، عن محمد ابن زياد الازدي ، عن أبان بن عثمان ، عن الثمالي ، عن علي بن الحسين علیه السلام ، عن أبيه علیه السلام، عن جده علیه السلام قال : قال رسول الله صل الله عليه و آله و سلم : الائمة من بعدي اثنا عشر أولهم أنت يا علي ، وآخر هم القائم الذي يفتح الله تعالى ذكره على يديه مشارق الارض ومغاربها
​

Al-Thumali has narrated from Imam Sajjad, and Imam has narrated through his forefathers through Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his progeny), who said the following,

The Imams after me are 12, the first one of them is you, O Ali, and the last one is al-Qa'im who Allah Ta'ala will conquer all the east and the west of the earth by his[Qa'im] hands.
(Bihar al-Anwar, v52, p378)

And many other Hadiths.
.

Dear Mojtaba,

The Imams were inspired in dreams and had visions of future. This is how the Imams were inspired and were knowledgeable about future events. Is this true?

One of the concepts that Quran teaches, is that, the events that appear in dreams and visions, are not fulfilled according to their outward interpretations. But they are fulfilled in another way.
For example, in Surah Joseph a man saw in his dream 7 fat cows were eaten by 7 slim cows.
When this was fulfilled, it did not appear in this world literally by appearing 7 slim and 7 fat cows. But instead 7 years of Prosperity were followed by 7 years of poverty. Moreover according to story of Quran, only a True Prophet (Joseph) could interpret the dreams.

Now questions:

1- If we apply the same concept that Quran teaches, since the Imams had visions and dreams that were inspired about future events, would it still be reasonable to say, that, the visions of Imams were to be fulfilled literally? and Who else other than the Qaim Himself can tell us their interpretations absolutely correctly?

2- Moreover, according to the Prophecies about Messiah in Jewish Scriptures, Jesus also was supposed to conquer east and west. But this did not happen, and the Jews rejected Him. Instead His religion conquered East and West! It seems the visions that the Prophet had about Messiah, did not fulfill literally!
...and There is no explicit prophecy in Jewish Scriptures that, the Messiah will come back the second time, and conquers the east and west. This was supposed to happen the first time, according to Jewish Scriptures!
How do you know, this is also not the case for the Qaim?

3- In Quran, it is said Allah has 'hand'. Do you take this literally? If no, what does it mean 'Hand of Allah'? and why do you believe that just because that Hadith says 'by His Hand', it necessarily means the physical hand?

4- Did Imams of Shia said, Qaim has a Worldly kingdom?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

ا​

This verse is not about Raj'ah.
....
.

Thank you dear Mojtaba.

Biharalanwar is one the main Shia Books.
I read in several instances in Biharal-anwar, (volume 52-53, the Promised Mahdi), that according to those Hadithes, this verse is about Rajah.
What I understand from you, is, you believe all those Shia, who narrated these Hadithes, did not have a correct understanding of Rajat, or they intentionally or mistakenly narrated false Hadithes.
Is it fair to say, that the Shias did not always agree, and these disagreements should be left to Qaim to resolve?

 

[Quagmire]

***Thread Closed for Review***​

 

[Shiranui117]

***MOD POST***

Thread moved to Same Faith Debates.​

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Abaan son of Tagleb he says: "I heard Aba Abudllah (Imam Jaafer) a.s saying: "When the banner of truth appears, the people of the east and the west shall curse it. Do you know why? He said: No. He said: This is from what the people shall see from his Ahlulbayt before his emergence.” Behar Al-Anwar v.52 p.365 134


According to this Hadith, the reason that people of the east and west curse and reject Qaim, is, because, this what they see from Ahlulbait!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

.... the big lair Bab(May Allah increase his painful torment in the deepest places of the Hell) who claimed that he is Mahdi....

See how clearly this Prophecy was fulfilled:

Abaan son of Tagleb he says: "I heard Aba Abudllah (Imam Jaafer) a.s saying: "When the banner of truth appears, the people of the east and the west shall curse it. Do you know why? He said: No. He said: This is from what the people shall see from his Ahlulbayt before his emergence.” Behar Al-Anwar v.52 p.365 134

 

[mojtaba]

Regardless of authenticity of the tradition which you have maentioned, firstly prove that Bab(gate, indeed the gate of the Hell) was mahdi and then say that prophecy has been fulfilled.

Thanks God after many studies in my relugion, I know your lies and you can not deceive me.