Shi'a Muslim and Bahai Only: The Qaim, The Mahdi

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam Friends,

I asked some Questions in the thread 'Bada', with regards to Qaim. I opended this new thread, because the rest of Questions are not related to Bada, so I should open a new one.

Here are some questions, and I will add to them as we go along. Thanks for participation!

1. In the Traditions of the Qaim, it speaks of Sword of Qaim, and that He Rules, and He overcomes the Anti-Christ.

When we look at Prophecies of the first coming of Messiah of Jews, according to Jewish Texts, we see similarities between Messiah and Qaim Prophecies. The Messiah was supposed to come with a sword and overcome others who oppose Him. Yet when Jesus came, according to the Chrsitian Texts, His Sword was the Word of God that separates Truth from False. He was not a literally Worldly Ruler or King, but His kingdom was a Spiritual or Heavenly. According to the Bible, the Anti-christ had come at that time too, but it was not a particular person, rather a symbolic Representation of darkness and error who opposed the teachings of Christ.
So, my Question is, How do we know, same interpretations does not apply to Prophecies of the Qaim?

2. If God wanted forcefully overcome all the infidles with Sword, He could have done this long time ago, through other Prophets or Imams. But He never forced people. Even imam Hossain was Marthyrd. So, if this was not how God did things in the Past, why would God forcefully make mankind submitte through Qaim?

 

[mojtaba]

Salam.

No one will be forced to accept Islam.

Imam Mahdi will establish his government throughout the world. From among Jews and Christians or other followers of Ahlul Kitab religions those who do not accept his guidance, should pay Jeziah and then enjoy all of their rights in Imam Mahdi's government(Reference : Bihar al-Anwar, Vol. 52, P. 373, 375, 376). However I think that most of the people will accept his guidance.

Consider that Imam Mahdi comes to rule according to justice, so everyone who does not like his manner and fights with him, will be destroyed. You think that establishing a global government does not need any fighting?!


Please read this tradition:
Imam Baqir (A.S) says: “He( Mahdi ) will invite people to stick to the Holy Qur’an, Prophet’s Sunnah and Imam Ali’s leadership and avoid the enemies.”‌(Bihar al-Anwar, Vol. 51, P. 47)

See this verse:

Holy Qur'an, Chapter 60
8.Allah does not forbid you from dealing with kindness and justice with those [polytheists and disbelievers] who did not make war against you on account of religion and did not expel you from your homes. Indeed Allah loves the just.

9.Allah forbids you only in regard to those who made war against you on account of religion and expelled you from your homes and supported each other in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them—it is they who are the wrongdoers.

Also read ff traditions from Imam Ali(a.s.):

1. Nahjul Balaghah( the book of the collection of the saying of Imam Ali ), Letter 14:
To his soldiers before the Battle of Siffin:

Do not fight them unless they initiate the fighting, because, by the grace of Allah, you are in the right and to leave them till they begin fighting will be another point from your side against them. If, by the will of Allah, the enemy is defeated then do not kill the runner away, do not strike a helpless person, do not finish off the wounded. Do not inflict pain on women even though they may attack your honour with filthy words and abuse your officers, because they(i.e., the women who attack the honour with filthy words and abuse the officers) are weak in power, mind and intelligence. We have been ordered to desist from them although they may be unbelievers. Even in the pre-Islamic (al-jahiliyyah) period if a man struck a woman with a stone or a stick he was rebuked along with his offspring after him.

2. Nahjul Balaghah, Sermon 206/ Wagha'atusSiffin by Nasribn Muzahim, page 103:
During the battle of Siffin Amir al-mu'minin( i.e., Imam Ali peace be upon him ) heard some of his men abusing the Syrians, then he said:

I dislike you starting to abuse them, but if you describe their deeds and recount their situations that would be a better mode of speaking and a more convincing way of arguing. Instead of abusing them you should say, "O Allah! Save our blood and their blood, produce reconciliation between us and them, and lead them out of their misguidance so that he who is ignorant of the truth may know it, and he who inclines towards rebellion and revolt may turn away from it."

3. Nahjul Balaghah,Sermon 55/ Wagha'atusSiffin by Nasribn Muzahim, page 209:
When Amir al-mu’minin’s men showed impatience on his delay in giving them permission to fight in Siffin, he said:

Well, as for your idea whether this (delay) is due to my unwillingness for death, then by Allah I do not care whether I proceed towards death or death advances towards me. As for your impression that it may be due to my misgivings about the people of Syria (ash-Sham), well by Allah, I did not put off war even for a day except in the hope that some group may join me, find guidance through me and see my light with their weak eyes. This is dearer to me than to kill them in the state of their misguidance although they would be bearing their own sins.

4. Nahjul Balaghah, Hadith n. 233
Amir al-mu'minin said to his son al-Hasan, peace be upon them both:

Do not call out for fighting, but if you are called to it do respond, because the caller to fighting is a rebel and the rebel deserves destruction.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Consider that Imam Mahdi comes to rule according to justice, so everyone who does not like his manner and fights with him, will be destroyed. You think that establishing a global government does not need any fighting?!

If the Justice of Qaim was to be established with fighting, then why the Hadithes says otherwise:


Imam Baqir (a.s) said: ".....When Yamani rises, he will forbid selling weapons for all of the people and for the Muslims as well....”

and many Hadithes, identifies the Sword of the Qaim, as Words and Writings:

Prophet said: "...Now his sword would be in the sheath, but when it is the time of his advent; it would also come out of the sheath and the Almighty Allah would give it power of speech....."

In Another Hadith From Imam (a.s) it is said:
“Every sword will be inscribed with a thousand words and each word will be a key to a thousand words.”

Source: Bihar-alanwar, the Promised Mahdi






However, there would be a punishment for not accepting the Truth of Qaim. Those who reject Him, will go to Fire of War with each other, and after taking their last breath, their soul goes to Hell:


Imam Baqir (a.s) said with regards to the following verse of Quran:

“Entering into burning fire…” (Surah Ghashiya 88:4)

He said: “They will enter the fire of wars in this life in the time of the Qaim and the fire of Hell in the hereafter.”

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Please read this tradition:
Imam Baqir (A.S) says: “He( Mahdi ) will invite people to stick to the Holy Qur’an, Prophet’s Sunnah and Imam Ali’s leadership and avoid the enemies.”‌(Bihar al-Anwar, Vol. 51, P. 47)

Dear Mojtaba,

I read this. I think every time a Messenger of God appeared, He invited people to stick with their own Books and Prophets.

So, when Prophet Muhammad appeared, in His Book (Quran), He revealed:

Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.

- Quran 5:68

So, in the same way that Prophet Muhammad asked Jews and Christians to stick with the Torah and Gospel, and yet He revealed a New Book, the Qaim would ask the Muslims to stick with Quran and Prophet and Imams Sunnah. Yes? What is your interpretation?


Thanks!

 

[mojtaba]

Dear Mojtaba,

I read this. I think every time a Messenger of God appeared, He invited people to stick with their own Books and Prophets.

So, when Prophet Muhammad appeared, in His Book (Quran), He revealed:

Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.

- Quran 5:68

So, in the same way that Prophet Muhammad asked Jews and Christians to stick with the Torah and Gospel, and yet He revealed a New Book, the Qaim would ask the Muslims to stick with Quran and Prophet and Imams Sunnah. Yes? What is your interpretation?


Thanks!

I am sorry. The verse says that Jews and Christisns must obey Qur'an,

Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord[Qur'an]." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.

- Quran 5:68

Qa'im has not any new book besides Noble Qur'an. See, [URL="http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/is-qaim-a-messenger-of-god-with-new-book.182575/#post-4556189"]Is Qaim a Messenger of God With New Book?[/URL]

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I am sorry. The verse says that Jews and Christisns must obey Qur'an,

Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord[Qur'an]." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.

- Quran 5:68

Qa'im has not any new book besides Noble Qur'an. See, Is Qaim a Messenger of God With New Book?

Yes, Prophet Muhammad asked the People of the Book to uphold it, as well as the New Book.
The Qaim does the same thing according to the Hadithes.

 

[Quagmire]

***Thread Closed for Review***​

 

[Shiranui117]

***MOD POST***

Thread moved to Same Faith Debates.​

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I am sorry. The verse says that Jews and Christisns must obey Qur'an,

Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord[Qur'an]." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.

- Quran 5:68

Qa'im has not any new book besides Noble Qur'an. See, [URL="http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/is-qaim-a-messenger-of-god-with-new-book.182575/#post-4556189"]Is Qaim a Messenger of God With New Book?[/URL]

It is obvious from this Hadith, that Qaim reveals New Set of Commandments:

It is recorded in Bihar-Alanwar that:

Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that he said:
“When the Qaim rises, he will come with a new commandment from Allah, just as the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) summoned men to a new set of commandments at the beginning of Islam.”


This proves Qaim, like other Messengers (Noah, Moses, Muhammad), was to bring a new set of commandments.

Other Hadithes states that Qaim comes with a new Covenant. That is like other Messengers.

 

[mojtaba]

It is obvious from this Hadith, that Qaim reveals New Set of Commandments:

It is recorded in Bihar-Alanwar that:

Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that he said:
“When the Qaim rises, he will come with a new commandment from Allah, just as the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) summoned men to a new set of commandments at the beginning of Islam.”


This proves Qaim, like other Messengers (Noah, Moses, Muhammad), was to bring a new set of commandments.

Other Hadithes states that Qaim comes with a new Covenant. That is like other Messengers.

Your interpretation is false. Because you do not mind the other traditions. You are misguided and are misguiding.

This Hadith say that Imam Mahdi will act like Prophet Muhammad and will rebuild Islam afresh. See ff Hadith,

Abd Allah b. Ata asked Imam Sadiq about the character and conduct of the Mahdi. The Imam said:
He will carry out tHe will carry out the same mission that the Prophet did. He will eradicate prevailing innovations, just as the Prophet destroyed the foundation of the jahiliyya (pre-Islamic Arab morals), and then rebuild Islam afresh.

Indeed, Imam Mahdi will propagate the true Islam which was distorted before him. This does not mean that he will come with a new religion besides Islam.

Prophet said, "The Qaim among my children, will have my name and my patronymic. He will possess my features and will follow my conduct. He will command the people to my obedience and to my law; and he will call them to the Book of my Lord(Quran).

 

[mojtaba]

Like Baha'ullah and liar Bab, you have changed the Hadiths to prove yourself. You have deleted a part of the Hadiths to change its meaning. A question, Why???!!!

If the Justice of Qaim was to be established with fighting, then why the Hadithes says otherwise:


Imam Baqir (a.s) said: ".....When Yamani rises, he will forbid selling weapons for all of the people and for the Muslims as well....”

This Hadith is about Yamani, not Qaim.

Selling weapon to the enemies will be forbiden, not selling it to those who are fighting against the enemies.

Imam Baghir says to a seller of the weapons,
" Bring weapon to them(soldiers) because Allah rejects our and your enemies by them.
But whoever sends weapons to our enemies, is a polytheist.
(Source, Manlayahzaroholfaqih)

and many Hadithes, identifies the Sword of the Qaim, as Words and Writings:

Prophet said: "...Now his sword would be in the sheath, but when it is the time of his advent; it would also come out of the sheath and the Almighty Allah would give it power of speech....."

Why do you have distorted this Hadith?! Why did not you mention the continue of the Hadith?

True Hadith,

Prophet said: "...Now his sword would be in the sheath, but when it is the time of his advent; it would also come out of the sheath and the Almighty Allah would give it(the sword) power of speech. Then the sword says to him(Qaim), 'Rise up O Allah's leader(for people). It is not lawful for you to hold back from the enemies of Allah.
He(Qaim) then will rise up and fight with the enemies of Allah wherever he comes upon them.

Source, Kamaluddin, p 265

Imam Baqir (a.s) said with regards to the following verse of Quran:

“Entering into burning fire…” (Surah Ghashiya 88:4)

He said: “They will enter the fire of wars in this life in the time of the Qaim and the fire of Hell in the hereafter.”

Why have you deleted the first part of the Haith to change its meaning?!

In the first part of Hadith it has been said about the vesre of Quran,
Did you receive the account of the Enveloper?(88:1)

"The Qaim overwhelms them(enemies) by the Sword."
(Source, Kafi, V8, P50)
So, the meaning of the Hadith is not what you have mentioned.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Thank you mojtaba for exposing investigatetruth's false and misleading statements.

The attitude he is showing is one that is prevalent in one of Baha'u'llah's most important books, the Kitab-i Iqan where he frequently distorts and forges Shia traditions in a vain attempt to prove his cause. In fact, the book was also filled with many grammatical mistakes and wrong citations of the Quran which were corrected in later versions of the book. Baha'u'llah is the first Prophet ever that has given out new versions of his book to correct errors from the first edition.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why did not you mention the continue of the Hadith?.

The complete Hadith is available in the links that were given already many times.
I only copy the part of the Hadith that is related to the topic of discussion.
If you feel the rest of the Hadith is related, you are able to copy the rest of it and refer to it.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

The complete Hadith is available in the links that were given already many times.
I only copy the part of the Hadith that is related to the topic of discussion.
If you feel the rest of the Hadith is related, you are able to copy the rest of it and refer to it.

You took that part out of context and if you had paid attention you would have seen that mojtaba put the rest of the hadith at the end of his post, which clearly shows how you distorted its meaning.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Like Baha'ullah and liar Bab, you have changed the Hadiths to prove yourself. You have deleted a part of the Hadiths to change its meaning. A question, Why???!!!


This Hadith is about Yamani, not Qaim.

Selling weapon to the enemies will be forbiden, not selling it to those who are fighting against the enemies.

Imam Baghir says to a seller of the weapons,
" Bring weapon to them(soldiers) because Allah rejects our and your enemies by them.
But whoever sends weapons to our enemies, is a polytheist.
(Source, Manlayahzaroholfaqih)


Why do you have distorted this Hadith?! Why did not you mention the continue of the Hadith?

True Hadith,

Prophet said: "...Now his sword would be in the sheath, but when it is the time of his advent; it would also come out of the sheath and the Almighty Allah would give it(the sword) power of speech. Then the sword says to him(Qaim), 'Rise up O Allah's leader(for people). It is not lawful for you to hold back from the enemies of Allah.
He(Qaim) then will rise up and fight with the enemies of Allah wherever he comes upon them.

Source, Kamaluddin, p 265


Why have you deleted the first part of the Haith to change its meaning?!

In the first part of Hadith it has been said about the vesre of Quran,
Did you receive the account of the Enveloper?(88:1)

"The Qaim overwhelms them(enemies) by the Sword."
(Source, Kafi, V8, P50)
So, the meaning of the Hadith is not what you have mentioned.

And how can the Sword speak if this Sword is not the Tongue?
Moreover, the Imams were inspired in dreams. The Dreams are not to be interpreted literally.
Only when the Taweel of these Hadithes is passed then we know their Taweel.
Only an infallible Imam can claim the true interpretation of these Hadithes. So, However the Qaim interprets them, that is the correct way with no error.
Some of The Shia Clergy have considered themselves well-grounded in knowledge as if they are infallible.
We have already seen many hadithes that states, onle the prophet, and people like Him, who are infallible, and God Tested Them already, can claim such infallibility.
Many of the Shia Clergy have clung to literal interpretations of the Hadithes (future events) and literally intepret them. This contradicts with the basic sayings of the Ptophet and infallible Imams.

Moreover, there are many Hadithes, that Warns people of Rise of an evil Shia Clergy (Ulama and Foqaha). These are the ones the schollars that are envolved in Worldy matters, and interpret the Hadithes and Quran literally ....

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Attacking the Shia clergy again huh? That is what one would expect from the followers of Baha'u'llah. After all, he referred to the Shia clergy as donkeys simply because they exposed him:

“Protect yourself so that from the donkey enemies, those with large turbans do not turn you away from (Baha'ism)...” (Baha’u’llah, Athar-i Qalam-i A`la, vol. 2, no. 83, p. 504)​

 

[mojtaba]

And how can the Sword speak if this Sword is not the Tongue?

Holy Qur'an, Chapter 41
20.when they come to it, their hearing, their eyes and their skins will bear witness against them concerning what they used to do.
21.They will say to their skins, ‘Why did you bear witness against us?’ They will say, ‘We were given speech by Allah, who gave speech to all things.

Moreover, the Imams were inspired in dreams. The Dreams are not to be interpreted literally.

This is not correct. Who has said this to you?

Only an infallible Imam can claim the true interpretation of these Hadithes. So, However the Qaim interprets them, that is the correct way with no error.
Some of The Shia Clergy have considered themselves well-grounded in knowledge as if they are infallible.
We have already seen many hadithes that states, onle the prophet, and people like Him, who are infallible, and God Tested Them already, can claim such infallibility.
Many of the Shia Clergy have clung to literal interpretations of the Hadithes (future events) and literally intepret them. This contradicts with the basic sayings of the Ptophet and infallible Imams.

Moreover, there are many Hadithes, that Warns people of Rise of an evil Shia Clergy (Ulama and Foqaha). These are the ones the schollars that are envolved in Worldy matters, and interpret the Hadithes and Quran literally ....

Slandering to the true Shia Scholars.

Imam Mahdi himself has said that at the era of his occulation, the narrators of Hadiths are the proofs of Imam Mahdi to us.