Shia Muslim - Baha'I: Period of Muslims

[InvestigateTruth]

Introduction:

One of the teachings of Quran and muslim Traditions, is that, every people have a Term. For example, once the Term for Jews ended, Jesus appeared with a new Book. The Period of Christians ended when Muhammad appeared.

Quran and Hadithes teach, that the Muslims also with no exception were appointed a period:


"To every people is a term appointed: when their term is reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance (it in anticipation)." Quran 7:34



"The Messenger of Allah said: "At the end of the time of my people (ummah), the Mahdi will appear...."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

This thread is to discover if, the Prophet and Imams knew when the End of People of Islam comes?

As soon as this topic is brought up, I have noticed some of the Shia friends, start bringing Hadithes that, the Prophet and Imams did not set a Time, and only Liars set time.

My reply to them is, you speak the Truth that Prophet or Imams did not set a time, but does it mean, God, Prophet and Imams who are well-grounded in knowledge, were unaware of the exact time?

Let's find out together:


According to the Hadithes, when the end of Period of people of Islam comes, the Qaim would appear without even one Hour delay:


"...This matter (the appearance of Qaim) has a precise time that it must reach. If it reaches its time, it will occur neither an hour sooner nor an hour later.”

http://www.shiavault.com/books/the-promised-mahdi-part-two/chapters/1-26

(Notice how this tradition goes with Quran 7:34)


Now let's see the Traditions, and verses of Quran that alludes to the Time of End:


In the book of Najm'us-Saghib, Haji Mirza Husayn-i Noori a Shi'ite scholar and commentator writes:

"At the time of the revelation of this verse (7:34) ("li-kulli ummaten ajal") which suggests that for every people a term has been established, they asked the Messenger of God what is the term for the ummah of Islam, and He replies: `If my people were truthful they remain for one day. If they degrade, half a day will they last."
-Najm'us-Saghib p. 87 (This Hadith also appears in vol. 13 of Bihar'ul- Anwar of Allamah Majlesi.)

In the Qur'an some verses indicate that sometimes, by a day, a 1000* years is meant:

"And they will bid thee hasten on the Doom, and Allah faileth not His promise, but lo! a Day with Allah is as a thousand years of what ye reckon."
- Qur'an 22:47


The Shi'ite Muslims believe that divine guidance continued through the twelve Imams until the year 260 AH when the last Imam disappeared. (See Al-Kafi Vol 1)

Based on the hadith above, and many other sayings of the Imams and some verses of the Qur'an, some Muslim scholars, and some schools of thought such as the Shaykhis, speculated that the year 1260 A.H. would be the year of the coming of the Promised One.


Another verse in the Qur'an which may hint to the time of the coming of the Mahdi is verse 32:5

"He orders the Affair from the heaven to the earth; then it will ascend to Him: in a day the measure of which is a thousand years as you count"

One of the Muslim scholars (Maulana Muhammad Ali) comments on this verse:

"Al-Amr or the Affair is the Affair of Islam, and its ordering or regulation from heaven to earth means that it comes from heaven and will be established firmly on earth. Then we are told that it will ascend to God in a day, the measure of which is a thousand years. As regareds the period of its firmness, we are told in a hadith that it will retain its purity for three centuries: ..."


It may also be of interest to observe that the number 1260 is mentioned in the Bible 7 times, regarding End Time prophecies.

Some other Islamic traditions containing references to the year 1260 A.H.:

In a tradition ascribed to the Imam Ali, the Commander of the Faithful, it is likewise recorded: "In Ghars the Tree of Divine guidance shall be planted." (Ghars which means planting, is numerically equivalent to 1260 in the Abjad system).



It is recorded in Bihar Vol 52:

“Likewise did Allah, the Exalted, to the Children of Israel. It is not difficult that He may gather this Ummah in a day or half a day. And a day before your Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.”


According to this tradition also, if gathering of Ummah occurred 1000 years after the divine guidance of Islam, which continued till year 260 AH, then the Day of gathering is 1260 AH.


See this link also: http://bahai-library.com/bic_islam_bahai_faith#9f

 

[mojtaba]

"The Messenger of Allah said: "At the end of the time of my people (ummah), the Mahdi will appear...."

This hadith is only in Sunni books and is not important for Shi'its who have their own traditions.

But in Shia traditions, it has been said that the Islamic people(Ummah) are the last and final people.

See the ff tradition,

​

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father that Ibn Abi Umayr has narrated from Hisham ibn Salim that,

Imam Sadiq said,

Prophet Muhammad has said," When I went to the Mi’raj [The Night Ascension] ..... Then I met Moses. Moses (pbuh) said to me, "O' Muhammad! Your Nation is the last and final Nation.

Sources,
Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 82, pg. 257
Tafseer Ali ibn Ibrahim, vol. 2, pg. 12

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This hadith is only in Sunni books and is not important for Shi'its who have their own traditions.

But in Shia traditions, it has been said that the Islamic people(Ummah) are the last and final people.

See the ff tradition,

​

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father that Ibn Abi Umayr has narrated from Hisham ibn Salim that,

Imam Sadiq said,

Prophet Muhammad has said," When I went to the Mi’raj [The Night Ascension] ..... Then I met Moses. Moses (pbuh) said to me, "O' Muhammad! Your Nation is the last and final Nation.

Sources,
Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 82, pg. 257
Tafseer Ali ibn Ibrahim, vol. 2, pg. 12

Dear Mojtaba, whenever a Hadith contradicts with Quran, we are supposed to accept the verse of Quran and reject the Hadith.
Quran 7:34 clearly says, every people have an End.

The Sunni Hadith is in accordence with Quran in this case. Just because a Hadith is from Sunni, is not a proof it is false. Moreover, many of the Shia Hadithes, denote that People of Muhammad have an End:


It is recorded in Bihar, Vol 52:

The Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) says:

“...And then will be the rise of the Mahdi, and he is a man from the offspring of this,” pointing to Ali Ibne Abi Talib (a.s.). “Through him Allah will take away lies. Through him time will take away severity. He will remove the disgrace of slavery from your necks.” Then he said: “I am the first of this Ummah, Mahdi is the middle of it, and Isa is the last of it. And in between there is a crooked old man.”

According to this Above Hadith, when Christ returns, that is the End of People of Muhammad.

Farther we read in Quran:




"Thus We have appointed you a middle (Ummah) nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard (test) save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah's purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind." Quran Surrah Baqareh.


Done Done! It is really irrelevant if we like it or not.
All people have an End, including Muslims, Baha'is,...and future people. I also don't like it, when one day, it is announced that the end of people of Baha will have come. But we submitte to the Will of God. Indeed this is the meaning of Muslim.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Here is another one:

عن أبي جعفر

قال : سمعته يقول : [ حم ] عسق عداد سني القائم و " ق " جبل محيط بالدنيا من زمرد أخضر فخضرة السماء من ذلك الجبل وعلم كل شئ في " عسق "

http://mezan.net/mawsouat/mahdi/90.html

تأویل الآیات از سکونی از امام باقر(ع) نقل می‌کند:« حم؛ حتمی بودن، عین؛ عذاب، سین؛ سال‌هایی چونان سال های یوسف،قاف؛ قذف[ پرتاب شدن]، خسف و مسخی که در آخرالزمان سفیانی، یارانش و مردمانی از کلب- که سی هزار نفرند و با او خروج می‌کنند- را خواهد رسید. این زمانی است که قائم(ع) - که مهدی این امت است - در مکه خروج نماید.»


http://www.yjc.ir/fa/news/5617226/حروف-مقطعه-سوره-شورا-با-امام-زمانع-چه-ارتباطی-دارند


In this Hadith, it is alluded that the Year of Qaim, is revealed in letter Sin.

The neumerical Abjad value of letter Sin, is Sixty.


Again proving the same point.

 

[mojtaba]

Dear Mojtaba, whenever a Hadith contradicts with Quran, we are supposed to accept the verse of Quran and reject the Hadith.
Quran 7:34 clearly says, every people have an End.

The Sunni Hadith is in accordence with Quran in this case. Just because a Hadith is from Sunni, is not a proof it is false. Moreover, many of the Shia Hadithes, denote that People of Muhammad have an End:


It is recorded in Bihar, Vol 52:

The Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) says:

“...And then will be the rise of the Mahdi, and he is a man from the offspring of this,” pointing to Ali Ibne Abi Talib (a.s.). “Through him Allah will take away lies. Through him time will take away severity. He will remove the disgrace of slavery from your necks.” Then he said: “I am the first of this Ummah, Mahdi is the middle of it, and Isa is the last of it. And in between there is a crooked old man.”

According to this Above Hadith, when Christ returns, that is the End of People of Muhammad.

Farther we read in Quran:




"Thus We have appointed you a middle (Ummah) nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard (test) save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah's purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind." Quran Surrah Baqareh.


Done Done! It is really irrelevant if we like it or not.
All people have an End, including Muslims, Baha'is,...and future people. I also don't like it, when one day, it is announced that the end of people of Baha will have come. But we submitte to the Will of God. Indeed this is the meaning of Muslim.

There is not any contraditions.
Yes. All people have an end and according to that narration which I narrated in the post 2, Islamic Ummah(people) is the last one and its period ends with the destruction of this world.

Imam Sadiq(pbuh) said,
Prophet Muhammad said," When I went to the Mi’raj [The Night Ascension] ..... Then I met Moses. Moses (pbuh) said to me, "O' Muhammad! Your Nation is the last and final Nation.

Sources,
Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 82, pg. 257
Tafseer Ali ibn Ibrahim, vol. 2, pg. 12

Good luck!

 

[mojtaba]

Here is another one:

عن أبي جعفر

قال : سمعته يقول : [ حم ] عسق عداد سني القائم و " ق " جبل محيط بالدنيا من زمرد أخضر فخضرة السماء من ذلك الجبل وعلم كل شئ في " عسق "

http://mezan.net/mawsouat/mahdi/90.html

تأویل الآیات از سکونی از امام باقر(ع) نقل می‌کند:« حم؛ حتمی بودن، عین؛ عذاب، سین؛ سال‌هایی چونان سال های یوسف،قاف؛ قذف[ پرتاب شدن]، خسف و مسخی که در آخرالزمان سفیانی، یارانش و مردمانی از کلب- که سی هزار نفرند و با او خروج می‌کنند- را خواهد رسید. این زمانی است که قائم(ع) - که مهدی این امت است - در مکه خروج نماید.»


http://www.yjc.ir/fa/news/5617226/حروف-مقطعه-سوره-شورا-با-امام-زمانع-چه-ارتباطی-دارند


In this Hadith, it is alluded that the Year of Qaim, is revealed in letter Sin.

The neumerical Abjad value of letter Sin, is Sixty.


Again proving the same point.

1.This Hadith which you have brought, never makes any sense.
2. Also, محمد بن جمهور is between the route of the narrators of the Hadith. He was a famous liar in his time and had enmity with Imams.( See, Mo'jam Rijal Al-Hadith by Ayatullah Kho'i)
3.There are an authentic Hadith that contradicts with that fake one.( See, Ma'aniyol Akhbar by Sheykh Saduq)
4. Only allusions are your the most strong proofs!!!

Thanks.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There is not any contraditions.
Yes. All people have an end and according to that narration which I narrated in the post 2, Islamic Ummah(people) is the last one and its period ends with the destruction of this world.

Imam Sadiq(pbuh) said,
Prophet Muhammad said," When I went to the Mi’raj [The Night Ascension] ..... Then I met Moses. Moses (pbuh) said to me, "O' Muhammad! Your Nation is the last and final Nation.

Sources,
Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 82, pg. 257
Tafseer Ali ibn Ibrahim, vol. 2, pg. 12

Good luck!

Dear Mojtaba,

The Prophet and Imams had provided guidence, with regards to interpretations of Quran, and also which Hadithes to accept or reject. It can be summarized with the following two:

1. The verses of Quran should not be interpreted (Taweel) according to the desire of people, but only the Imams and Prophets of God who are well-grounded in knowledge can provide the interpretation of verses of God. For that reason, for example, if we want to know the interpretation of the verses regarding the Last Day, or Judgement, Day of Resurrection, we should not interpret them according to the desire of people, but we should acquire this interpretation from the way Imams or Prophet had interpreted them. Hence, when you talk about the destruction of world, as being literally the End of World, that is according to the interpretation of regular people, not the Imams or Prophet who are well grounded in knowledge. According to many Hadithes from those well-grounded Stars of Knowledge, by the End of World is meant, a time when, True Religion disappears, and injustice and falsehood spreads around the World. So, at this time, the Qaim appears to Resurrect it. This time is the End, and End of Islam, according to the interpretations given by Imams.
Moreover, according to a verse in Quran, the earth will become like a paradise, and the Believers live on it Forever.

2. The Imams and Prophet had said, for every Hadith that is attributed to us, only accept them, if you have a Witness (shahid) from Quran.

So, when you quote a statement that People of Islam are the Last People, where is your witness from Quran? On the contrary, Quran rejects this idea, as it says, You are a middle People, which means there will be other Peoples after you. Also there are verses in Quran, that alludes He will change you with another People. So, when I brought Hadithes, that says, People of Islam are not the Last People, i have witness from the Quran, and other Hadithes from Prophet, but when you bring a saying attributed to an Imam that says Muslims are the Last People, you have No Witness from Quran.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

1.The fake Hadith which you have brought never makes any sense.
2. محمد بن جمهور is between the narators of the Hadith. He was a famous liar in his time and had enmity with Imams.( See, Mo'jam Rijal Al-Hadith by Ayatullah Kho'i)
3.There are an authentic Hadith that contradicts with that fake one.( See, Ma'aniyl Akhbar by Sheykh Saduq)
4. Only allusions are your the most strong proofs!!!

Thanks.

Dear Mojtaba, I have to say, the way you judge about Hadithes to determine their validity, is Not what the Imams and Prophet advised. Lets see what the Imams have said with regards to Hadithes:

In a Book called Wasail, it is recorded from Imam Sadiq:

"

اذا ورد عليکم حديث فوجدتم له شاهداً من کتاب الله او من قول رسول الله صلي الله عليه وآله و الا فالذي جاءکم به اولي به


​

And also in the Book Kafi:

"ما لم يوافق من الحديث القرآن فهو زخرف"

Meaning, Imam Sadiq said, if they give you a Hadith from us, which has a Witness from Quran, or Sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, it is acceptable. But if it is different from the sayings of Quran, then it is false.

So, the Imams did not say, classaify your Hadithes as fake or true, based on your own judgement. They did not say if a Hadith is Narrated by Mr so and so, reject it, and if it is narrated in a chain that you think is right, accept it. They have said, you need to compare it with Quran, and other sayings of the Prophet. The Muslim Religious leaders have come up with their own way of authenticating Hadithes, which is not how the infallibles had advised them.

 

[mojtaba]

Dear Mojtaba,
The Prophet and Imams had provided guidence, with regards to interpretations of Quran, and also which Hadithes to accept or reject. It can be summarized with the following two:
1. The verses of Quran should not be interpreted (Taweel) according to the desire of people, but only the Imams and Prophets of God who are well-grounded in knowledge can provide the interpretation of verses of God. For that reason, for example, if we want to know the interpretation of the verses regarding the Last Day, or Judgement, Day of Resurrection, we should not interpret them according to the desire of people, but we should acquire this interpretation from the way Imams or Prophet had interpreted them.

Dear,

Generally agreed. But this issue recall to me the saying of Imam Ali to Khawarij. Khawarij fought with Imam Ali. They said, 'لا حكم الا لله'( There is no command but that of Allah ). Upon this Imam Ali siad, 'كَلِمَةُ حَقٍّ أُرِيدَ بِهَا بَاطِلٌ' (A true statement through which the wrong is being sought).

Hence, when you talk about the destruction of world, as being literally the End of World, that is according to the interpretation of regular people, not the Imams or Prophet who are well grounded in knowledge.

The time of occultation and also time of the reappearance of Imam Mahdi Al-Qaim(a.s.), in comparison to the period before it, is near to the end of world. So that the time of his occultation and also the time of his reappearance is named the end of times.

Two Hadiths prove this. 1. As I frequently mentioned in this thread, according to the Hadith of Prophet Muhammad, Prophet Moses said to him that his nation is the last and final nation.

2. According to a so authentic Hadith of Prophet, he(s.a.w.a.w.s.) said,

'If there were only one day left for the world, that day would be lengthened until a man (Imam Mahdi Al-Qaim) from among my children, who is my namesake, will be sent.'


So, After Islam, this world will be destroyed and according to the other Hadiths, after destruction of this world, Allah will send all the people in the Eden or Hell, then He(swt) will creat another world in which there would not be any human, instead there would be beings who do not have any gender and only worship God.(See, Bihar Al-Anwar by Majlisi, V. 51 P. 321./ and Tawhid by Sheykh Saduq, P. 200)

According to many Hadithes from those well-grounded Stars of Knowledge, by the End of World is meant, a time when, True Religion disappears, and injustice and falsehood spreads around the World. So, at this time, the Qaim appears to Resurrect it. This time is the End, and End of Islam, according to the interpretations given by Imams.

Moreover, according to a verse in Quran, the earth will become like a paradise, and the Believers live on it Forever.

You are wrong.

As I brought the Hadiths, according to them, the last times( Akhir Az-Zaman ) is the time of Islamic period. Because Islam is the last religion. Also, the time of occultation of Imam Mahdi Al-Qaim and the time of his reapearance is the last times that in comparison to the period before it, it is near to the end of this world. See the previos part.

2. The Imams and Prophet had said, for every Hadith that is attributed to us, only accept them, if you have a Witness (shahid) from Quran.

So, when you quote a statement that People of Islam are the Last People, where is your witness from Quran? On the contrary, Quran rejects this idea, as it says, You are a middle People, which means there will be other Peoples after you. Also there are verses in Quran, that alludes He will change you with another People. So, when I brought Hadithes, that says, People of Islam are not the Last People, i have witness from the Quran, and other Hadithes from Prophet, but when you bring a saying attributed to an Imam that says Muslims are the Last People, you have No Witness from Quran.

1.Accoing to Quran, Prophet Muhammad is the seal of the Prophets, so that there would not be any Prophet after him.( Sura Al-Ahzab, verse 40 )

2.Prophet Muhammad(s.a.w.a.w.s.) said, 'It has been given to me the complete words.'(اُعْطیتُ جوامع‌ الکَلم‌)( One of Shia sources, Man La Yahzarohol Faqih, V.1, P.201/ One of Sunni sourecs, Sahih Al-Bukhari, V. 4, P. 12 )

3.When Prophet Muhammad passed away, Imam Ali(a.s.) said, 'O Messenger of Allah! With your death the process of prophethood, revelation and heavenly messages has stopped, which had not stopped at the death of others (prophets).( Nahjul Balaqa, Sermon 234 )

4.Imam Sajjad, i.e., Imam Ali ibn Al-Husain[ 4th Shia infallible Imam ] said, 'He[ Allah(swt) ] sealed through us (Islamic nation), all He created.'( Sahifa As-Sajjadiyyah, 2th verse of the 2th supplication )

And other many verses and authentic Hadiths...

Good luck!

 

[mojtaba]

Dear Mojtaba, I have to say, the way you judge about Hadithes to determine their validity, is Not what the Imams and Prophet advised. Lets see what the Imams have said with regards to Hadithes:

In a Book called Wasail, it is recorded from Imam Sadiq:

"

اذا ورد عليکم حديث فوجدتم له شاهداً من کتاب الله او من قول رسول الله صلي الله عليه وآله و الا فالذي جاءکم به اولي به


​

And also in the Book Kafi:

"ما لم يوافق من الحديث القرآن فهو زخرف"

Meaning, Imam Sadiq said, if they give you a Hadith from us, which has a Witness from Quran, or Sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, it is acceptable. But if it is different from the sayings of Quran, then it is false.

So, the Imams did not say, classaify your Hadithes as fake or true, based on your own judgement. They did not say if a Hadith is Narrated by Mr so and so, reject it, and if it is narrated in a chain that you think is right, accept it. They have said, you need to compare it with Quran, and other sayings of the Prophet. The Muslim Religious leaders have come up with their own way of authenticating Hadithes, which is not how the infallibles had advised them.

Quran says, 49:6
O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.

1.محمد بن جمهور was a liar and had enmities with Imams and Ahlul Bayt(pbut). So, he was a disobedient one and we can not accept his saying. No intelligent one accept a saying from a person who was liar and disobedient.

2.Also, as I mentioned, there are another Hadith which contradicts with this one which there are at least one liar man between its route of the narrators.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Quran says, 49:6
O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.

1.محمد بن جمهور was a liar and had enmities with Imams and Ahlul Bayt(pbut). So, he was a disobedient one and we can not accept his saying. No intelligent one accept a saying from a person who was liar and disobedient..

Here is another Hadith, that Muhammad Ibn Jamhur is in the Chain:


14- Ikmaaluddin: It is narrated from Ibne Walid from Saffar from Ahmad bin Husain bin Saeed from Muhammad bin Jamhur from Faddalah from Muawiyah bin Wahab from Abu Hamza from Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) that the Messenger of
Allah (s.a.w.s.) said:
“Bliss be for the person who will be in the time of the Qaim of my household, who follows the Qaim during his occultation before his rise and
loves his lovers and despises his enemies. Such a person is of my friends and lovers and he is the most honorable of my Ummah to me on Judgment Day.”


Is this Hadith fake too? According to your Logic every Hadith that has this person in it, is fake. Such method proved to be wrong.
We cannot judge a Hadith based on its Narrators. The only proper way of investigation, that the Imams and Muhammad advised, is, if a Hadith has a Witness from Quran, or a saying from Prophet, we accept.

2.Also, as I mentioned, there are another Hadith which contradicts with this one which there are at least one liar man between its route of the narrators.

There is no contradiction. I have a witness from Quran:

“There is neither a thing green nor sere but it is noted in the unerring Book"

According to this verse, everything is noted in Quran uptill Day of Judgement, and that includes the year that Qaim Rises. Off course, it is not mentioned explicitly. But Imams have knowledge about all details of Quran according to many Ahadith. So, Imam Sadiq told us, the letter Sin, in the disconnected letter, is the year. Year sixty, is mentioned in the other Hadith as well, and in Bible also, period of 1260 years is mentioned 7 times in Christian and Jewish Scriptures. So, in all Books of God, is mentioned.

 

[mojtaba]

Here is another Hadith, that Muhammad Ibn Jamhur is in the Chain:

14- Ikmaaluddin: It is narrated from Ibne Walid from Saffar from Ahmad bin Husain bin Saeed from Muhammad bin Jamhur from Faddalah from Muawiyah bin Wahab from Abu Hamza from Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) that the Messenger of
Allah (s.a.w.s.) said:
“Bliss be for the person who will be in the time of the Qaim of my household, who follows the Qaim during his occultation before his rise and
loves his lovers and despises his enemies. Such a person is of my friends and lovers and he is the most honorable of my Ummah to me on Judgment Day.”

Is this Hadith fake too? According to your Logic every Hadith that has this person in it, is fake. Such method proved to be wrong.
We cannot judge a Hadith based on its Narrators. The only proper way of investigation, that the Imams and Muhammad advised, is, if a Hadith has a Witness from Quran, or a saying from Prophet, we accept.

Because you are not awar of the Hadiths, you have erred.

1.As I said in the previous post of mine, Quran says that we should judge the Hadiths based on their narrators, so why do you say this method is wrong?!

2.The liars mixed the true Hadiths with the faked ones to misgiude the people.Quran says, 'Do not mix the truth with falsehood'[2:42] . So, if a Hadith has been narrated only by the liars, we can not accept them.

3.That Hadith which you have narrated in this post, has another route of the narrators in which there is not محمد بن جمهور[Muhammad ibn Jomhoor]( See, Kamaluddin, P. 286 ). So, we can accept it.

There is no contradiction. I have a witness from Quran:

“There is neither a thing green nor sere but it is noted in the unerring Book"

According to this verse, everything is noted in Quran uptill Day of Judgement, and that includes the year that Qaim Rises. Off course, it is not mentioned explicitly. But Imams have knowledge about all details of Quran according to many Ahadith. So, Imam Sadiq told us, the letter Sin, in the disconnected letter, is the year. Year sixty, is mentioned in the other Hadith as well, and in Bible also, period of 1260 years is mentioned 7 times in Christian and Jewish Scriptures. So, in all Books of God, is mentioned.

If there is a Hadith with a authentic route of the narrators, we accept it as the saying of the infallibles about the verses. But when a Hadith has been narrated only by a liar, based on the Quran, we can not accept it.

Anyway, let's think that that fake Hadith is Sahih.You said,
'In this Hadith, it is alluded that the age of Qaim, is revealed in letter Sin. The neumerical Abjad value of letter Sin, is Sixty.'

1.When Bab died, he was 30, but that Hadith says that the age of Qaim(a.s.) is 60!
2.Firstly, who has said you that you can use the Abjad to interpreting the Hadiths?
Secondly, Adjad has different methods, like Adjad Saqir and Abjad Kabir. Who has said you from which method you can use to interpret the Hadiths?

 

[mojtaba]

Introduction:

One of the teachings of Quran and muslim Traditions, is that, every people have a Term. For example, once the Term for Jews ended, Jesus appeared with a new Book. The Period of Christians ended when Muhammad appeared.

Quran and Hadithes teach, that the Muslims also with no exception were appointed a period:


"To every people is a term appointed: when their term is reached, not an hour can they cause delay, nor (an hour) can they advance (it in anticipation)." Quran 7:34



"The Messenger of Allah said: "At the end of the time of my people (ummah), the Mahdi will appear...."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

This thread is to discover if, the Prophet and Imams knew when the End of People of Islam comes?

As soon as this topic is brought up, I have noticed some of the Shia friends, start bringing Hadithes that, the Prophet and Imams did not set a Time, and only Liars set time.

My reply to them is, you speak the Truth that Prophet or Imams did not set a time, but does it mean, God, Prophet and Imams who are well-grounded in knowledge, were unaware of the exact time?

Let's find out together:


According to the Hadithes, when the end of Period of people of Islam comes, the Qaim would appear without even one Hour delay:


"...This matter (the appearance of Qaim) has a precise time that it must reach. If it reaches its time, it will occur neither an hour sooner nor an hour later.”

http://www.shiavault.com/books/the-promised-mahdi-part-two/chapters/1-26

(Notice how this tradition goes with Quran 7:34)


Now let's see the Traditions, and verses of Quran that alludes to the Time of End:


In the book of Najm'us-Saghib, Haji Mirza Husayn-i Noori a Shi'ite scholar and commentator writes:

"At the time of the revelation of this verse (7:34) ("li-kulli ummaten ajal") which suggests that for every people a term has been established, they asked the Messenger of God what is the term for the ummah of Islam, and He replies: `If my people were truthful they remain for one day. If they degrade, half a day will they last."
-Najm'us-Saghib p. 87 (This Hadith also appears in vol. 13 of Bihar'ul- Anwar of Allamah Majlesi.)

In the Qur'an some verses indicate that sometimes, by a day, a 1000* years is meant:

"And they will bid thee hasten on the Doom, and Allah faileth not His promise, but lo! a Day with Allah is as a thousand years of what ye reckon."
- Qur'an 22:47


The Shi'ite Muslims believe that divine guidance continued through the twelve Imams until the year 260 AH when the last Imam disappeared. (See Al-Kafi Vol 1)

Based on the hadith above, and many other sayings of the Imams and some verses of the Qur'an, some Muslim scholars, and some schools of thought such as the Shaykhis, speculated that the year 1260 A.H. would be the year of the coming of the Promised One.


Another verse in the Qur'an which may hint to the time of the coming of the Mahdi is verse 32:5

"He orders the Affair from the heaven to the earth; then it will ascend to Him: in a day the measure of which is a thousand years as you count"

One of the Muslim scholars (Maulana Muhammad Ali) comments on this verse:

"Al-Amr or the Affair is the Affair of Islam, and its ordering or regulation from heaven to earth means that it comes from heaven and will be established firmly on earth. Then we are told that it will ascend to God in a day, the measure of which is a thousand years. As regareds the period of its firmness, we are told in a hadith that it will retain its purity for three centuries: ..."


It may also be of interest to observe that the number 1260 is mentioned in the Bible 7 times, regarding End Time prophecies.

Some other Islamic traditions containing references to the year 1260 A.H.:

In a tradition ascribed to the Imam Ali, the Commander of the Faithful, it is likewise recorded: "In Ghars the Tree of Divine guidance shall be planted." (Ghars which means planting, is numerically equivalent to 1260 in the Abjad system).



It is recorded in Bihar Vol 52:

“Likewise did Allah, the Exalted, to the Children of Israel. It is not difficult that He may gather this Ummah in a day or half a day. And a day before your Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.”


According to this tradition also, if gathering of Ummah occurred 1000 years after the divine guidance of Islam, which continued till year 260 AH, then the Day of gathering is 1260 AH.


See this link also: http://bahai-library.com/bic_islam_bahai_faith#9f

In this post, you are trying to determine the date of the reapearance of Qaim by Hadiths. Regardless of the fallacies, see the ff authentic Hadiths,

1.When the Sahaba asked from Prophet Muhammad(sawaws) about the time of rising of Qaim, he said, 'Its knowledge is only with my Lord. None will reveal its time except Him.'(Kamaluddin, P. 373)

2.Imam Al-Baqir said,' People who determine a specifice time for the reappearance are liars; they lie, they lie.'(Al-Kafi, V.1, P.368)

3.Imam As-Sadiq said, 'People who determine times for the reappearance are liars, we are a family that do not determine any specific time for it.'(Al-Kafi, V.1, 368)

Etc.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Because you are not awar of the Hadiths, you have erred.

1.As I said in the previous post of mine, Quran says that we should judge the Hadiths based on their narrators, so why do you say this method is wrong?!

Hello Mojtaba,

The Quran does not say, investigate Hadithes based on their Narrators. Lets read the verse again, carefully and meditate on it:


Quran says, 49:6
O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.


It says, even if, a bad person or as your translation, a disobedient person comes with news, do not reject it, just because the news comes from a person known to be disobedient.

You are doing exactly the opposite. You are saying just because a news or Hadith come from a bad person, your judgement is based on the person.
What this verse is teaching is, do not prejudge, that just because a person was disobedient, therefore it is impossible for him to give a true information. You need to investigate the information, not the person who brought the news. Moreover, if you read this verse along with context and the Tafseers of Imams, it is about News regarding Qaim.

1.When Bab died, he was 30, but that Hadith says that the age of Qaim(a.s.) is 60!

No, it says:

عسق is:

عدد سنی قائم

Adadi senni qaim, means year of Qaim.

Here you can see examples how Addade Senni is understood in Islamic Litrature:


http://lib.eshia.ir/search/"عدد_سني"

2.Firstly, who has said you that you can use the Abjad to interpreting the Hadiths?
Secondly, Adjad has different methods, like Adjad Saqir and Abjad Kabir. Who has said you from which method you can use to interpret the Hadiths?

There are many Hadithes that, the letters of Quran alludes to certain years, if interpreted with Abjad.
In this case, Sin can also stand for Settin, which means 60. We know this, because it is consistant with other calculations of year 1260 AH, and because it came to pass.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In this post, you are trying to determine the date of the reapearance of Qaim by Hadiths. Regardless of the fallacies, see the ff authentic Hadiths,

1.When the Sahaba asked from Prophet Muhammad(sawaws) about the time of rising of Qaim, he said, 'Its knowledge is only with my Lord. None will reveal its time except Him.'(Kamaluddin, P. 373)

2.Imam Al-Baqir said,' People who determine a specifice time for the reappearance are liars; they lie, they lie.'(Al-Kafi, V.1, P.368)

3.Imam As-Sadiq said, 'People who determine times for the reappearance are liars, we are a family that do not determine any specific time for it.'(Al-Kafi, V.1, 368)

Etc.

When they said people who determine the year of Manifestation, it means, those who do it on their own, but if we Learn the allusions of Imams, it is in their allusions:

It is narrated from Muhammad bin Hamam and
Muhammad bin Hasan bin Muhammad bin Jamhur together from Hasan bin Muhammad bin Jamhur from his father from some of his men from Mufaddal Ibne Umar that he said: Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) said:

“One tradition, which you comprehend well, is better than ten you narrate. Verily, every truth has a reality and every veracity has an illumination.” Then he said: “We, by Allah, do not consider a man from our Shia to be a Faqih unless when he is addressed through hints and allusions, he understands them.


Moreover, when something comes to pass, it is known. We are saying the Promise of Qaim came to pass. The Imams said, when Qaim comes, most people deny Him and Fail to recognize Him.

 

[mojtaba]

Hello Mojtaba,

The Quran does not say, investigate Hadithes based on their Narrators. Lets read the verse again, carefully and meditate on it:


Quran says, 49:6
O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.


It says, even if, a bad person or as your translation, a disobedient person comes with news, do not reject it, just because the news comes from a person known to be disobedient.

You are doing exactly the opposite. You are saying just because a news or Hadith come from a bad person, your judgement is based on the person.
What this verse is teaching is, do not prejudge, that just because a person was disobedient, therefore it is impossible for him to give a true information. You need to investigate the information, not the person who brought the news. Moreover, if you read this verse along with context and the Tafseers of Imams, it is about News regarding Qaim.












No, it says:

عسق is:

عدد سنی قائم

Adadi senni qaim, means year of Qaim.

Here you can see examples how Addade Senni is understood in Islamic Litrature:


http://lib.eshia.ir/search/"عدد_سني"







There are many Hadithes that, the letters of Quran alludes to certain years, if interpreted with Abjad.
In this case, Sin can also stand for Settin, which means 60. We know this, because it is consistant with other calculations of year 1260 AH, and because it came to pass.

When they said people who determine the year of Manifestation, it means, those who do it on their own, but if we Learn the allusions of Imams, it is in their allusions:

It is narrated from Muhammad bin Hamam and
Muhammad bin Hasan bin Muhammad bin Jamhur together from Hasan bin Muhammad bin Jamhur from his father from some of his men from Mufaddal Ibne Umar that he said: Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) said:

“One tradition, which you comprehend well, is better than ten you narrate. Verily, every truth has a reality and every veracity has an illumination.” Then he said: “We, by Allah, do not consider a man from our Shia to be a Faqih unless when he is addressed through hints and allusions, he understands them.


Moreover, when something comes to pass, it is known. We are saying the Promise of Qaim came to pass. The Imams said, when Qaim comes, most people deny Him and Fail to recognize Him.

Hello.
Imams themselves said that they do not determine any time for it, too.

Imam As-Sadiq said, 'People who determine specific date for the reappearance are liars[ e.g., Baha'is ans Babis ], we[ Imams ] are a family that do not determine any specific date for it.'(Al-Kafi, V.1, 368)

He(a.s.) also said to Mufadhal, 'O Mufadhal, I do not determine any date for it, I do not determine any specific date for it'(Bihar Al-Anwar, V.53, P.3).

He also said to Muhammad ibn Muslim,' Whoever determines any specific date for you, do not fear to reject him/her. We do not say a specific date to others.(Bihar Al-Anwar, V.52, P.104)

And many other Hadiths.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Hello.
Imams themselves said that they do not determine any time for it, too.

Imam As-Sadiq said, 'People who determine specific date for the reappearance are liars[ e.g., Baha'is ans Babis ], we[ Imams ] are a family that do not determine any specific date for it.'(Al-Kafi, V.1, 368)

He(a.s.) also said to Mufadhal, 'O Mufadhal, I do not determine any date for it, I do not determine any specific date for it'(Bihar Al-Anwar, V.53, P.3).

He also said to Muhammad ibn Muslim,' Whoever determines any specific date for you, do not fear to reject him/her. We do not say a specific date to others.(Bihar Al-Anwar, V.52, P.104)

And many other Hadiths.

It seems to me, you think 'determining', is the same as 'knowing'. So, you say, just because they did not determine, it means they did not know it, which is incorrect.
Just think about it. For example, your friend tells you, his wife is having a baby today. Now you know, she will have a baby. Does it mean you determine for them to have a baby? For example you know tomorrow will rain from the news. Does it mean you determined it will rain? Does it mean you decide to rain? The Imams said, we do not determine, does it mean, they said we do not know? Why do you need to stretch the meaning of something to make it say what you want?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

2. According to a so authentic Hadith of Prophet, he(s.a.w.a.w.s.) said,

'If there were only one day left for the world, that day would be lengthened until a man (Imam Mahdi Al-Qaim) from among my children, who is my namesake, will be sent.'

Dear Mojtaba,

Lets remember, the Imams said, in the Hadithes also, there are Mutishabihat too.

Lets think a little about this Hadith.

It says if only one day left from the world, God will make it long so, Qaim comes.

Firstly, the Qaim according to Traditions is to establish true religion and unit all people. If Qaim was to come literally on the Last Day of earth, and then next day, the earth is all destroyed whats the benefit of establishing ture religion and uniting all people on earth? Moreover, according to many traditions Qaim rules for 7 years, so, it cannot be literally the End of earth.
Secondly, it is ilogical to say, God will wait to the last day, and then He has to make it long so Qaim comes. For a day to be long, it means the rotation of earth be slowed, which means one side of earth will have a very long day, and the other side will have a very long night. This will cause all trees and plants and many things die. So, literal interpretation is incorrect. Therefore this Hadith must be Mutishabihat.

Imams said, we need to reject literal interpretation, and return the Mutishabihat with the Muhkaat ones.

Now, from Quran, we know a verse, that says, a day of God is 1000 years of what we count. So, with this verse which is Muhkam, we can return it to meaningful interpretation. This is the Long Day, which the Hadith is talking about, and my witness is other Hadithes from Prophet, which says, the period of muslims is 1000 years.
Now, the 11th Imam, passed away in year 260AH, so, Qaim comes 1000 years after that, which means 1260 AH. Now we believe this, because the Bab declaired in that year.


Now, by Last Hour is meant, the End of pervious religion, and coming of a New Messenger of God, so, for example, when it was the Last Day of People of Moses, their Messenger, who was Jesus came to them, for judgement. According to Bible:

18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19

Notice it says the Last Hour has come. This was when Jesus had come for Judgement, according Bible:

"And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man."


Now my witness is Quran:

"For every people is a messenger, and when their messenger comes, the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged. And they say: When will this promise be fulfilled, if ye are truthful? SAY: I have no power over my own weal or woe, but as God pleaseth. Every people hath its time: when their time is come, they shall neither retard nor advance it an hour" 10:47-49

 

[InvestigateTruth]

1.Accoing to Quran, Prophet Muhammad is the seal of the Prophets, so that there would not be any Prophet after him.( Sura Al-Ahzab, verse 40 )

According to Quran Muhammad is Khatamul-Anbiyaa (خاتَم الانبیا)

What does Khatam (خاتَم ) mean? Lets Look at dictionary:

مصطلحات المعنى النص الاصلى

عامة ring خاتَم
عامة Circlet; sigil; Signet خاتم
قانونية Seal; stamp خاتم
معاني الاسماء Conclusion خاتم

http://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-en/خاتم/

Also see here:

http://www.vajehyab.com/dehkhoda/خاتم

And

https://fa.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/خاتم‌الانبیا


Imam Ali in Shia Sources is called Seal of Successors:


سهل بن عبدالله ، عن محمد بن سوار ، عن مالك بن دينار ، عن الحسن البصري ، عن أنس في حديث طويل : سمعت رسول الله يقول : أنا خاتم الانبياء وأنت ياعلي خاتم الاولياء.

http://lib.eshia.ir/11008/39/76/"خاتم_الاولياء"

Other Imams are also successors. So if after Seal of Successors, it was possible other successors to come, Logically, i do not know, why after Seal of Prophets, another Messenger cannot come.


Even if Seal means last, according to these Hadithes, there is no Prophet after Him until Day of Resurrection:
Here are Two More Hadithes:

قال علي عليه السلام: "أمّا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم فخاتم النبيين، ليس بعده نبي ولا رسول، وختم برسول الله الأنبياء إلى يوم القيامة"
الاحتجاج، ج 1، ص 220

لا کتاب بعد کتابی٬ لاشریعه بعد شریعتی الی یوم القيامه؛


Imam Ali said: "the Messenger of God, is Seal of Prophets, there is no Messenger or Prophet after Him until Day of Ressurection. "

And my witness is, Hadith from Muhammad:

"There is no Book, after my Book, and no new Law after My Law, until Day of Resurrection"


But Day of Resurrection is the when the Qaim rises:

Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) said: “‘When they see what they have been promised of refers to the rise of the Qaim, and that is ‘the Hour.’

Here is another one:
Imam Sadiq said:

"يوم الدين خروج القائم "

(Judgement Day is rise of Qaim)
Sources: http://lib.eshia.ir/11008/24/326

Here is another, and very clear one:

"يوم القيامة وهو يوم قيام القائم"

Imam sadiq said, ...Day of Judgement, that is Day of Rising the Qaim.

Source: http://lib.eshia.ir/11008/24/398

 

[mojtaba]

I do not want to waste my time. All the issues have been answered.

Good bye and Good luck!