Shia Muslim - Baha'I: Period of Muslims

[mojtaba]

That fake hadith which you have brought in the post #21 is not in any Shia books. It is nothing but a fake hadith which is made by Baha'is.

I asked those who have the book to check it. There is not that fake hadith in it.

Also, that baha'i who made the hadith was not good in Arabic, so that his fake hadith has many gramatical problems.
For example,
1.there is in that fake hadith, يخرب البلاد من هذا المطر, while یخرب is incorrect and تخرب is correct.
2. Also, يخرج دابة الأرض is incorrect and تخرج is correct.

The creator of the hadith was not aware that because دابة الارض and البلاد are Mo'annath( مؤنث ), so that their verbs should be in the Mo'annath form, not in Mozakkar( مذكر ) form.

 

[mojtaba]

Show me a link to that Book, and I will show where it is. Deal?

Oh, you have claimed that that fake hadith which has different gramatical problems is in one of our books, then do I have to bring the book, so that you show me where it is?!!!!
Lol!

 

[mojtaba]

They say: "When will this promise (come to pass) if ye are telling the truth?"
Say: “There has been appointed for you a Day, which you can neither delay nor advance by a single moment.”
Quran 34:29-30


As you see, the Quran clearly says, you had just a Day. And a Day according to Quran is 1000 years.

My witness is other verses and Hadithes

Distort the verses, because this is your the best work.

And they say, “When is this promise due, if you are truthful?” (29) Say, “You[ O disbelievers ] are promised a Day, which you cannot postpone by one hour, nor bring forward.” (30)
Quran 34:29-30

This verse says that that oppointed day will certainly comes. This verse does not talk about the duration before that day.

I do not know that what do you mean? This verse proves nothing.

 

[mojtaba]

The divine revelation is always closed by coming of a Messenger. Fro example when Moses came, He revealed religious Laws ordained until coming of Jesus, who had a New revelation. Even, between Moses and Jesus there were many Prophets (Nabi), they did not have any New Religious Laws. They only promoted Religion of Moses.

In Islam, the Revelation ended with Muhammad and was closed until coming of the Qaim. The Qaim according to Hadithes is an Imam and a Messenger with a New Book and Sharia. As you know, being an Imam does not mean not a Messenger. For example, Muhammad and Abraham were Imams and also Messenger, as you surely know.

According to authentic Hadiths, Imam Mahdi will propagate Islam and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad. Imam Mahdi will propagate Islam, nothing else.

New book is not a book besides Holy Quran. That new book is this ordinary Quran with its true interpretation by Prophet Muhammad. This interpretation was written by Imam Ali. Prophet Muhammad said the true interpretation of Quran to Imam Ali and he wrote it. According to authentic Hadiths, Imam Mahdi Al-Qaim will bring this new book, nothing else. See Al-Kafi, V.2, P.633.[فإذا قام القائم (عليه السلام) قرأ كتاب الله عز وجل على حده وأخرج المصحف الذي كتبه علي (عليه السلام :Qaim(as) will bring the book which Ali(as) wrote].

Qaim will not have any new Shari'ah. His Shari'ah is the Shari'ah of Islam, nothing else.
Prophet Muhammad said,
1.Qaim will act according to my Sunnah.( يعمل بسنتي )
Shia sourec, Ilal Al-Shara'i' by Saduq, V.1, P.161

2.Or he said, ' Mahdi will say my Sunnah[ to people ].( يقول بسنتي)
Sunni source, Al-Mo'jam Al-Awsat, V.2, P.15.

And many other Hadiths. So, Imam Mahdi will propagate only Islam.

 

[mojtaba]

Good questions Mujtaba,

Knowledge is a Light from God. So, in this sense me, you and even the Prophet has no knowledge of Himself, because, that Light of Knowledge is not from us, but from God. So, no lieing. I already quoted the other verse that, even Muhammad threw, God said it was God who did. We cannot say God lied. But this only means, that, all things are from God, and it was though His will, that Muhammad threw. So, no lieing. This is just the way God Veiled the time of coming of Qaim, or Resurrection.

Now, let me give a logical reason too.
It is obvious that, Prophet and Imams are the most trust worthy. There is no logical reason God witholds this knowledge from them.

Now here are some more proof about knowledge of Imams and Prophet:


Selected from Imam Ali Sermon of Gulf:

But rejoice now for the cause of all creation reverts unto Me on the morrow. Let not this claim appear extravagant inasmuch as We have been vouchsafed the knowledge of all fates and of all tribulations. and the knowledge of interpretation and of the Revelation and the decisive Discourse (Faslu'l-Khitab) and knowledge of all future calamities and catastrophes.

There is nothing whose knowledge escapes Us. This is truth and I shall see this One [pointing to Husayn, Peace be upon Him] when His Light shall flow forth of His eyes and I shall be present with Him a lengthy time that shall witness earthquakes and eclipses. They that are believers will revolt in His company from every corner. I swear by God! If I wished I would tell you of their names every one of them and their descent from both parents, until the Day of whose time is promised


. I know of the wonders of God's Work what no one knows but God and I know what has been and what will be and what has been in the First Sprinkling with those who preceded the First Adam. All was disclosed (kushifa) for Me[8] and I knew and all was taught Me and I have learnt.
So hearken and do not raise a clamour. Were it not for My fear that you might say "'Ali has become possessed or apostatised from His Faith" I shall disclose unto you what and whereat they are and what you shall encounter on the day of Resurrection. All that knowledge was entrusted unto Me and thus I knew and the knowledge of all this was hidden from all the Prophets except the Lord of this Dispensation (Shari'ah)[9] of yours (Peace be upon Him and His Family). He taught Me His knowledge and I taught Him My knowledge.


I know all that is above the supreme Paradise and that which is below the seventh Ocean, that which is in the highest heavens and that which is between them and that which is below them




Selected from Imam Ali’s Sermon of Light:


O Salmán! Allahazwj, exalted be He, said: "He causes the Spirit to descend upon His Servant He nominates." This Spirit then descends unto the one entrusted with the Command and the Decree. I (Aliasws ) give life to the dead. I know what is in the heavens and what is on the earth. I am, in truth, the Perspicious Book. I give life unto the dead and I have all the knowledge
that is in the heavens and on the earth. I am the Perspicious Book.
I also bring the Trembling and would cause the ‘final quake’. I am the ‘Protected Tablet’ (Lowhay Mahfooz) and all the knowledge it has originates from me.


My witness for the sayings of Ali is Quran:


http://lib.eshia.ir/search/"من_عنده_علم_الکتاب"?

See here also:

groupKey=eyJpdiI6IldRNzh4QXlrVGVHaTlxN0p2Tk9BMmc9PSIsInZhbHVlIjoiSWNQUzRXeW93eDdcLytJSVVvMkpJQXZGaWZTeWJoM2lua0RmcGxEM2NyeXBURDhZSWN5ajVlRW9Vd2VVbWxRMUFHQTJFSGgydFpFWkpkeXFOcE53aFlBPT0iLCJtYWMiOiI2Yzg2ZmUzZjkyMjVjZWFmYWY1OWMwMjk4MjBjM2Y4MmYyNWQ2MmQ4YjhlNDk0MWUxYWU1ZjQxMzZmMjE4MDk3In0=
http://lib.eshia.ir/27311/15/566/"الا_في_کتاب_مبين"

You should see all Hadiths.

According to the other authentic Hadiths, [ the rest is the translation of a Hadith ] there are two types of knowledge( العلم علمان ). One type is the hidden knowledge which is only for Allah and He(swt) never informs others about it( فعلم عند الله مخزون لم يطلع عليه أحدا من خلقه ), and the other is the knowledge which Allah has given to Prophets and Messengers and angels( وعلم علمه ملائکته ورسله وأنبیاءه ). See, Al-Kafi, V.1, P.147.

 

[mojtaba]

Firstly God ordains whatever He wills. So, harsh Laws, does not mean they are not from God.

The Babi Faith religious Laws were revealed for a short period, until Bahaullah's revelation, which was only 9 years. Bahai faith has a different set of Laws.
The Muslims expected a blood thisty Qaim who cuts everyones head, don't you?

'Certain torment' in a sense that, help the cause of God to progress, not in a violent way, such as beating or killing:

"So fierce is this fire of self burning within them,
that at every moment they seem to be afflicted with fresh torments. The more they are told that this wondrous Cause of God, this Revelation from the Most High, hath been made manifest to all
mankind, and is waxing greater and stronger every day, the fiercer groweth the blaze of the fire in their hearts. "

- Bahaullah, Book of Iqan

Abdul Baha said,
'If religion causes killing and savagery it is not religion and having no religion is better than that.'( See, `Abd al-Hamīd Ishrāq Khāwarī, Payām-i malakūt, pp. 44–45. )

So, the religion of your fake mahdi and qaim( Bab ) is not in fact a religion. Because Abdul Baha said,
'The utterance of the [book] of Bayān [ book of Bab ] in the day of the appearance of Hadhrat A`lā [meaning the Bab] was to behead, burn the books, destroy the monuments, and massacre [everyone] but those who believed [in the Bāb’s religion] and verified it.' (See, `Abdu’l-Bahā, Makātīb, vol. 2, p. 266 )

Thanks.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Distort the verses, because this is your the best work.



And they say, “When is this promise due, if you are truthful?” (29) Say, “You[ O disbelievers ] are promised a Day, which you cannot postpone by one hour, nor bring forward.” (30)
Quran 34:29-30

This verse says that that oppointed day will certainly comes. This verse does not talk about the duration before that day.

I do not know that what do you mean? This verse proves nothing.

Dear Mojtaba, you very well know what I mean

The verses of Quran are clear.


Sahih International: Say, "For you is the appointment of a Day [when] you will not remain thereafter an hour, nor will you precede [it]."



وَيَسْتَعْجِلُونَكَ بِالْعَذَابِ وَلَن يُخْلِفَ اللَّهُ وَعْدَهُ وَإِنَّ يَوْمًا عِندَ رَبِّكَ كَأَلْفِ سَنَةٍ مِّمَّا تَعُدُّونَ
22:47

"And they will bid thee hasten on the Doom, and Allah faileth not His promise, but lo! a Day with Allah is as a thousand years of what ye reckon."
- Qur'an 22:47

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Abdul Baha said,
'If religion causes killing and savagery it is not religion and having no religion is better than that.'( See, `Abd al-Hamīd Ishrāq Khāwarī, Payām-i malakūt, pp. 44–45. )

So, the religion of your fake mahdi and qaim( Bab ) is not in fact a religion. Because Abdul Baha said,
'The utterance of the [book] of Bayān [ book of Bab ] in the day of the appearance of Hadhrat A`lā [meaning the Bab] was to behead, burn the books, destroy the monuments, and massacre [everyone] but those who believed [in the Bāb’s religion] and verified it.' (See, `Abdu’l-Bahā, Makātīb, vol. 2, p. 266 )

Thanks.

It does not mean that there should not be any punishment in Laws of God.

But, for example, when Muslims created sects and kill each other, like those wars, it is better for them not to have such a fanatical religious belief.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You should see all Hadiths.

According to the other authentic Hadiths, [ the rest is the translation of a Hadith ] there are two types of knowledge( العلم علمان ). One type is the hidden knowledge which is only for Allah and He(swt) never informs others about it( فعلم عند الله مخزون لم يطلع عليه أحدا من خلقه ), and the other is the knowledge which Allah has given to Prophets and Messengers and angels( وعلم علمه ملائکته ورسله وأنبیاءه ). See, Al-Kafi, V.1, P.147.

The essense of God is unknown to His Prophets.
But the events of future, as Imam Ali said are known to Him. Moreover, Imams said, whenever they ask God for knowledge of anything, He reveals it to them. It was in the link (in Arabic)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I do not want to waste my time. All the issues have been answered.

Good bye and Good luck!

Ok. Thanks to you too. I think you are a smart person. Anyways, it should be a free world, so we can agree to disagree.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That fake hadith which you have brought in the post #21 is not in any Shia books. It is nothing but a fake hadith which is made by Baha'is.

I asked those who have the book to check it. There is not that fake hadith in it.

Also, that baha'i who made the hadith was not good in Arabic, so that his fake hadith has many gramatical problems.
For example,
1.there is in that fake hadith, يخرب البلاد من هذا المطر, while یخرب is incorrect and تخرب is correct.
2. Also, يخرج دابة الأرض is incorrect and تخرج is correct.

The creator of the hadith was not aware that because دابة الارض and البلاد are Mo'annath( مؤنث ), so that their verbs should be in the Mo'annath form, not in Mozakkar( مذكر ) form.

Dear mojtaba. Those could just be typing errors.
Here is another Hadith which says یخرج دابة الارض.

http://lib.eshia.ir/15258/2/179/یخرج_دابة_الارض

And

http://lib.eshia.ir/15258/2/163/یخرج_دابة_الارض

These are fake too?

We have to find the actual book, the Hadith came from. The name of the Book is given, but I cannot find it online.

The person who refered to this Hadith was Sadrul Ulama of Hamidan, a high rank Muslim Clergy who became Bahai. He passed in year 1325 AH, and he wrote that book 1 yeat prior to his passing.

But the Book you asked your friend seems to have finished in year 1336, which is 11 years after this person passed.


http://wikifeqh.ir/خزینة_الجواهر_فی_زینة_المنابر


So, there must have been another book or a previous eddition that this person was refering.



You do not have to accept this, up to you. There has been too many other Hadithes, verses of Quran and Bible, all pointing to year 1260 ah.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

١١٤ ـ نى : بهذا الاسناد عن البزنطي ، عن عاصم بن حميد الحناط ، عن أبي بصير قال : قال أبوجعفر (ع) : يقوم القائم بأمر جديد ، وكتاب جديد ، وقضاء جديد على العرب شديد ، ليس شأنه إلا بالسيف لا يستتيب أحدا ولا يأخذه في الله لومة لائم.

http://lib.eshia.ir/11008/52/354/"کتاب_جديد"


وقال (ع) : يقوم بأمر جديد ، وكتاب جديد ، وسنة جديدة وقضاء [ جديد ] على العرب شديد ، وليس شأنه إلا القتل ، لا يستبقي أحدا ، ولا يأخذه في الله لومة لائم.

http://lib.eshia.ir/11008/52/231/"کتاب_جديد"

...
فوالله لكأني أنظر إليه بين الركن والمقام يبايع الناس بأمر جديد، وكتاب جديد، وسلطان جديد من السماء

http://lib.eshia.ir/15258/3/214/"کتاب_جديد"


وأنّه القائم المهدي ، ومعنى القائم عندهم ، انّه يبعث بالرسالة وبشريعة جديدة ، ينسخ بها شريعة محمد

http://lib.eshia.ir/27143/8/326/"يبعث_برسالة_وشريعة_جديدة"



All these Hadithes are farther confirmation, that the Qaim that Imams spoke of, was to come with a new Book, New Ways, New Commandment, New Law, New Judgement, and New kingdom, which is difficult for Arabs, because they would not be able to accept a new Book, and Law to come after, Seal of Prophets.

Good luck.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

وأنّه القائم المهدي ، ومعنى القائم عندهم ، انّه يبعث بالرسالة وبشريعة جديدة ، ينسخ بها شريعة محمد

http://lib.eshia.ir/27143/8/326/"يبعث_برسالة_وشريعة_جديدة"



All these Hadithes are farther confirmation, that the Qaim that Imams spoke of, was to come with a new Book, New Ways, New Commandment, New Law, New Judgement, and New kingdom, which is difficult for Arabs, because they would not be able to accept a new Book, and Law to come after, Seal of Prophets.

Good luck.

Haha you are so delusional. Copy-pasting stuff that you don't even understand. The last quote is not even a hadith. It is the statement of Shaykh Jafar al-subhani who is stating that the Ismailies believe that the Qa'im will bring a new religion and abrogate Islam! And then you claim these are all HADITH confirming your lies.

The hadiths state nothing about the Qaim bringing a NEW RELIGION or ABROGATING ISLAM.

Do some more research next time.

 

[von bek]

The person who refered to this Hadith was Sadrul Ulama of Hamidan, a high rank Muslim Clergy who became Bahai. He passed in year 1325 AH, and he wrote that book 1 yeat prior to his passing.

Sorry to intrude, I have a quick question. You give a year of 1325 AH. What does the "H" stand for?

 

[mojtaba]

Sorry to intrude, I have a quick question. You give a year of 1325 AH. What does the "H" stand for?

'AH' is the abbreviation of 'After Hijra'. Hijra is an Arabic word and means migration. It is the migration of Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his pure progeny ) from Mecca to Medina( two cities of Saudi Arabia ). The begining of Islamic calender is the time of the begining of this mgiration of Prophet Muhammad( peace be upon him and his pure progeny ).

 

[mojtaba]

Haha you are so delusional. Copy-pasting stuff that you don't even understand. The last quote is not even a hadith. It is the statement of Shaykh Jafar al-subhani who is stating that the Ismailies believe that the Qa'im will bring a new religion and abrogate Islam! And then you claim these are all HADITH confirming your lies.

The hadiths state nothing about the Qaim bringing a NEW RELIGION or ABROGATING ISLAM.

Do some more research next time.

Thank you.

I do not know why Baha'is try to change our Hadiths. They bring some Hadiths and ignore others which elaborate those Hadiths, so that they change the meaning of them. They also make some fake hadiths and claim that they are in our books, while they are not.

According to the following Hadith which has at least 4 different routes of the narrators, on contrary to what Baha'is believe, Qaim( i.e., Imam Mahdi_ pbuh ) will never brings any new Faridha( religious duties ) and also he(pbuh) will never changes Shari'ah( religious laws ).

ﺃﻟﻠﻬﻢ ﻓﺈﻧﺎ ﻧﺸﻬﺪ ﻟﻪ ﻳﻮﻡ ﺍﻟﻘﻴﺎﻣﺔ ﻭ ﻳﻮﻡ ﺣﻠﻮﻝ ﺍﻟﻄﺎﻣﺔ ﺃﻧﻪ ﻟﻢ ﻳﺬﻧﺐ ﺫﻧﺒﺎ ﻭ ﻟﺎﺃﺗﻲ ﺣﻮﺑﺎ ﻭ ﻟﻢ ﻳﺮﺗﻜﺐ ﻣﻌﺼﻴﺔ ﻭ ﻟﻢ ﻳﻀﻴﻊ ﻟﻚ ﻃﺎﻋﺔ ﻭ ﻟﻢ ﻳﻬﺘﻚ ﻟﻚ ﺣﺮﻣﺔ ﻭ ﻟﻢ ﻳﺒﺪﻝ ﻟﻚ ﻓﺮﻳﻀﺔ ﻭ ﻟﻢ ﻳﻐﻴﺮ ﻟﻚ ﺷﺮﻳﻌﺔ​

O Allah, we shall bear witness for him( i.e., Qaim ) on the Judgment Day, and the day when calamity will commence, that he didn't commit any sin, and never did anything on the basis of his desire, and didn't commit any guilt, and didn't forfeit Your obedience; he didn't debase Your sanctuary, he never changed any religious duties( Faridha ), and he didn't change religious laws( Shari'ah ).

Source: Bihar Al-Anwar, v95, p334, see the linke http://lib.eshia.ir/11008/95/334/لم_یبدل_لک_فریضة_و_لم_یغیر_لک_شریعة

 

[mojtaba]

Abdul Baha[ the son and successor of Baha'ullah ] said,
'If religion causes killing and savagery it is not religion and having no religion is better than that.'( See, `Abd al-Hamīd Ishrāq Khāwarī, Payām-i malakūt, pp. 44–45. )

Abdul Baha also said,
'The utterance of the [book] of Bayān [ book of Bab, the qaim of Baha'is ] in the day of the appearance of Hadhrat A`lā [meaning the Bab] was to behead, burn the books, destroy the monuments, and massacre [everyone] but those who believed [in the Bāb’s religion] and verified it.' (See, `Abdu’l-Bahā, Makātīb, vol. 2, p. 266 )

Thanks to Abdul Baha because of this big funny contradiction.

 

[mojtaba]

Dear Mojtaba, you very well know what I mean

The verses of Quran are clear.


Sahih International: Say, "For you is the appointment of a Day [when] you will not remain thereafter an hour, nor will you precede [it]."



وَيَسْتَعْجِلُونَكَ بِالْعَذَابِ وَلَن يُخْلِفَ اللَّهُ وَعْدَهُ وَإِنَّ يَوْمًا عِندَ رَبِّكَ كَأَلْفِ سَنَةٍ مِّمَّا تَعُدُّونَ
22:47

"And they will bid thee hasten on the Doom, and Allah faileth not His promise, but lo! a Day with Allah is as a thousand years of what ye reckon."
- Qur'an 22:47

Okay. Let's explore your posts more scientifically.

'You' in verse 34:30 refers to disbelievers, not Muslims. Please be carfull when you are quoting the verses. Please do not change the meaning of the verses.

Also, I can not understand, you are trying to prove that after 1000 yrs or 1260 yrs is our expiration date?!

 

[mojtaba]

The essense of God is unknown to His Prophets.
But the events of future, as Imam Ali said are known to Him. Moreover, Imams said, whenever they ask God for knowledge of anything, He reveals it to them. It was in the link (in Arabic)

You have again brought a Hadith and ignored others to prove yourself.

Yes, Imams(pbut) said that whenever they ask God for knowledge of anything, He reveals it to them.
But, they also said, و ليس كل ما طلب وجد( and it is not that whatever is requested is found ). See Al-Kafi, v1,p273.

 

[mojtaba]

Ok. Thanks to you too. I think you are a smart person. Anyways, it should be a free world, so we can agree to disagree.

Yes. 100% agreed.