BlandOatmeal
Active Member
A SENSE OF PERSPECTIVE
Religion, in its broadest context, can be described as the framework in which we sense reality. In revelatory religions, this framework is imparted from a supernatural source -- either individually, as in various forms of meditation, dreams and visions, or second-hand, through writings and oral traditions. In historically revelatory religions such as Christianity, Judaism and, to some extent, Islam, historical events are predicted before they happen; and as these events happen, the predictions become better understood.
The Bible probably contains more specific predictions concerning what, to this generation, are historical events, than any other source I am aware of. Besides this, Zoroastrian predictions of the apocalypse bear a close resemblance to the prophecies in Daniel -- with the main difference being that the protagonist in Daniel is the people of Israel, and the protagonist in the Zoroastrian prophecies is Iran. After the Zoroastrian authorities in Iran were replaced by Muslims, and the Iranians adopted Shi'a Islam, these prophetic motifs found their way into Shi'ite apocalyptic traditions. The Baha'i religion also has Messianic predictions similar to those in the Bible, as Baha'i is an intentionally synchretist religion with mainly Islamic and Christian influence. In light of the above, my concern with apocalyptic traditions focuses on those in the Bible; though the historical framework I lay out here can be adapted to the Iranian predictions as well, with modification.
The Book of Daniel contains two largely parallel prophecies of the end times, one in chapter 2 and one in chapter 7. Together, according to most interpreters, they describe a progression of world powers, each displacing the other in turn: first Babylon, then Persia, then Greece or Macedonia, then Rome. The Book of Revelation incorporates much imagery from Daniel, amalgamating the statue in Daniel 2 and the beasts in Daniel 7 into two isomorphic creatures: one, "the Beast", having seven heads that represent a succession of world empires, and the other "the Dragon", or "the Devil", which gives power to the Beast.
The historical outworking of "the Beast" has been interpreted many ways over the ages; and understandably so, because in no age were the interpreters sure whether or not they were themselves living in the apocalyptic generation. If we are to try to fit this prophecy into our own generation, we need to bear in mind one important fact: The heads of "the Beast" represent WORLD POWERS that have SUCCEEDED one another; and since the Roman Empire was the sixth of the seven heads in Revelation, there needs to be a clear, uninterrupted, logical connection between the current "head" and that empire.
The only reasonable connection I can see, between the current world order and Rome, is through the Holy Roman Empire. That empire truly succeeded and displaced the former; for up until the time that Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne as the "Holy Roman Emperor", based on a forged but nearly universally attested to document called the "Donation of Constantine", the Patrimony of St. Peter, containing Rome, was nominally subject to the remnant of the ancient empire, based in Constantinople. No other continuous, uninterrupted path back to the empire of John's day exists; and as the seventh head in John's revelation is replaced by ten horns, so was the Holy Roman Empire replaced as the dominant power in the West by a number of world powers, each ruled ultimately by a descendant of Charlemagne.
There is no want of people who disagree with the above view, though it is the one avowed by the preponderance of contemporary Biblical scholars and has its advocates across the Internet. My main concern in this present thread, is to describe the present world situation as accurately as possible, so proper conclusions can be drawn as to the identity of the countries alluded to in the prophecies. Besides the Daniel and Revelation predictions of an end-times conflict that will usher in the Messianic reign, there is a prophecy in Ezekiel concerning an event, involving an attack on Israel by a handful of countries, to occur BEFORE the end-time battle. I hope that the framework I'm presenting here puts that prediction in perspective as well.
Lest we get lost in endless details, let us begin by considering who, exactly, ARE the great powers of today. There are many ways to categorize them:
I. SUPERPOWERS
There is only one, the United States of America
II. THE "P5"
These are the permanent members of the UN Security Council, each having veto power over matters concerning collective security: The US, the UK, France, Russia and China.
III. THE G-20
This economic summit includes representatives of 20 of the largest world economic powers. It includes the P5, plus 15 others.
IV. THE GLOBAL FIREPOWER INDEX
This is a list, prepared by a think tank, of the world's greatest military powers. I will list here those countries, in order, which are also part of the G-20:
MAJOR COLONIAL POWERS,
from the mid-18th Century through World War II
These are all still relatively important countries today; because the former colonies of many are either G-20 countries or members of the European Union. I will list them here, and their former colonies ( in parentheses):
With the Gulf War of 1991 and the attack on the World Trade Center in 2001, some modern-day prophets have identified either the heads or the horns of Daniel and Revelation with Muslim countries. While some of them were certainly "heads", or PAST world powers (Egypt, Iraq and Iran), none of them fits as being a "horn" -- except perhaps Turkey, which was a major colonial power in modern times (though I don't hold to this notion).
Religion, in its broadest context, can be described as the framework in which we sense reality. In revelatory religions, this framework is imparted from a supernatural source -- either individually, as in various forms of meditation, dreams and visions, or second-hand, through writings and oral traditions. In historically revelatory religions such as Christianity, Judaism and, to some extent, Islam, historical events are predicted before they happen; and as these events happen, the predictions become better understood.
The Bible probably contains more specific predictions concerning what, to this generation, are historical events, than any other source I am aware of. Besides this, Zoroastrian predictions of the apocalypse bear a close resemblance to the prophecies in Daniel -- with the main difference being that the protagonist in Daniel is the people of Israel, and the protagonist in the Zoroastrian prophecies is Iran. After the Zoroastrian authorities in Iran were replaced by Muslims, and the Iranians adopted Shi'a Islam, these prophetic motifs found their way into Shi'ite apocalyptic traditions. The Baha'i religion also has Messianic predictions similar to those in the Bible, as Baha'i is an intentionally synchretist religion with mainly Islamic and Christian influence. In light of the above, my concern with apocalyptic traditions focuses on those in the Bible; though the historical framework I lay out here can be adapted to the Iranian predictions as well, with modification.
The Book of Daniel contains two largely parallel prophecies of the end times, one in chapter 2 and one in chapter 7. Together, according to most interpreters, they describe a progression of world powers, each displacing the other in turn: first Babylon, then Persia, then Greece or Macedonia, then Rome. The Book of Revelation incorporates much imagery from Daniel, amalgamating the statue in Daniel 2 and the beasts in Daniel 7 into two isomorphic creatures: one, "the Beast", having seven heads that represent a succession of world empires, and the other "the Dragon", or "the Devil", which gives power to the Beast.
The historical outworking of "the Beast" has been interpreted many ways over the ages; and understandably so, because in no age were the interpreters sure whether or not they were themselves living in the apocalyptic generation. If we are to try to fit this prophecy into our own generation, we need to bear in mind one important fact: The heads of "the Beast" represent WORLD POWERS that have SUCCEEDED one another; and since the Roman Empire was the sixth of the seven heads in Revelation, there needs to be a clear, uninterrupted, logical connection between the current "head" and that empire.
The only reasonable connection I can see, between the current world order and Rome, is through the Holy Roman Empire. That empire truly succeeded and displaced the former; for up until the time that Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne as the "Holy Roman Emperor", based on a forged but nearly universally attested to document called the "Donation of Constantine", the Patrimony of St. Peter, containing Rome, was nominally subject to the remnant of the ancient empire, based in Constantinople. No other continuous, uninterrupted path back to the empire of John's day exists; and as the seventh head in John's revelation is replaced by ten horns, so was the Holy Roman Empire replaced as the dominant power in the West by a number of world powers, each ruled ultimately by a descendant of Charlemagne.
There is no want of people who disagree with the above view, though it is the one avowed by the preponderance of contemporary Biblical scholars and has its advocates across the Internet. My main concern in this present thread, is to describe the present world situation as accurately as possible, so proper conclusions can be drawn as to the identity of the countries alluded to in the prophecies. Besides the Daniel and Revelation predictions of an end-times conflict that will usher in the Messianic reign, there is a prophecy in Ezekiel concerning an event, involving an attack on Israel by a handful of countries, to occur BEFORE the end-time battle. I hope that the framework I'm presenting here puts that prediction in perspective as well.
Lest we get lost in endless details, let us begin by considering who, exactly, ARE the great powers of today. There are many ways to categorize them:
I. SUPERPOWERS
There is only one, the United States of America
II. THE "P5"
These are the permanent members of the UN Security Council, each having veto power over matters concerning collective security: The US, the UK, France, Russia and China.
III. THE G-20
This economic summit includes representatives of 20 of the largest world economic powers. It includes the P5, plus 15 others.
IV. THE GLOBAL FIREPOWER INDEX
This is a list, prepared by a think tank, of the world's greatest military powers. I will list here those countries, in order, which are also part of the G-20:
- the USA
- Russia
- China
- India
- the UK
- France
- Germany
- South Korea
- Italy
- Brazil
- Turkey
MAJOR COLONIAL POWERS,
from the mid-18th Century through World War II
These are all still relatively important countries today; because the former colonies of many are either G-20 countries or members of the European Union. I will list them here, and their former colonies ( in parentheses):
- the UK (India, the US, Pakistan, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Egypt, Burma, South Africa, Tanzania, Kenya, Sudan, Uganda, Canada, Iraq, Malaysia, Nepal, Malawi Afghanistan, Ghana, Australia, Sri Lanka, Zambia, Zimbabwe, South Sudan, United Arab Emirates, Israel, Hong Kong, Papua New Guinea, Jordan, Sierra Leone, Singapore, Ireland, New Zealand, et al)
- Spain (Mexico, Philippines, Colombia, Argentina, Peru, Venezuela, Chile, Ecuador, Guatemala, Cuba, Bolivia, Dominican Rep, Honduras, Paraguay, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, et al)
- France (Vietnam, Algeria, Morocco, Ivory Coast, Syria, Madagascar, Cameroon, Burkina Faso, Niger, Mali, Cambodia, Senegal, Chad, Tunisia, Guinea, Haiti, Benin, Laos, Togo, Lebanon, Central African Rep, Rep of Congo, et al)
- Turkey (Egypt, Algeria, Sudan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Romania, Tunisia, Greece, Israel, Bulgaria, Serbia, Jordan, Libya, Lebanon, et al)
- the Netherlands (Indonesia, South Africa, Sri Lanka, et al)
- Portugal (Brazil, Mozambique, Angola, et al)
- Russia (Ukraine, Poland, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Belarus, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Finland, Turkmenistan, Georgia, et al)
- Italy (Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, Libya, et al)
- the US (Philippines, Cuba, et al)
- Japan (South Korea, North Korea, Taiwan, et al)
- Germany (Tanzania, Cameroon, Rwanda, Burundi, Austria, Togo, et al)
- Belgium (DR Congo, Rwanda, Burundi)
- Austria (Czech Rep, Hungary, Slovakia, et al)
- China (Taiwan, et al)
- Thailand (Cambodia, Laos)
- Iran (Azerbaijan, Georgia, et al)
- Sweden (Finland, Norway, et al)
- Denmark (Norway, et al)
With the Gulf War of 1991 and the attack on the World Trade Center in 2001, some modern-day prophets have identified either the heads or the horns of Daniel and Revelation with Muslim countries. While some of them were certainly "heads", or PAST world powers (Egypt, Iraq and Iran), none of them fits as being a "horn" -- except perhaps Turkey, which was a major colonial power in modern times (though I don't hold to this notion).
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I say that in jest, of course: I do not consider either Assad or the mullahs of Iran to be qualified to say who is "Satan" (God's Adversary). God Himself knows those who are His, and those who speak and act and live against Him. What Assad's words mean to me, is that Syria and Saudi Arabia are mutual enemies; and that the mullahs, who shake our hands and pretend to be our friends, and to whom my President speaks as friends in private, hate us as much as Assad hates the Saudis, or more; but while we TALK of supporting Assad's enemies, we DO as though we are Assad's friend.
