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Should Christians Be Keeping the Sabbath?
- Thread starter Rainbow Mage
- Start date
james2ko
Well-Known Member
Jesus did not break the 4th commandment of God. He broke the commandments of men (Mar 7:7-9). No catch 22.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
This partly, if at all, true. Jesus baptized in the Spirit. The 'water baptism' is just a church ceremony, it has no meaning aside from saying' I'm a christian' publicly. It can't, because we are told explicitly that Jesus baptizes us differently from John or whoever baptizes us. To even compare the two is wildly unscriptural, and entering the 'magic ceremony' realm of the heathens.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
Jesus fulfilled the Law. You contradict yourself. Do you know what fulfilling is and doing away with is?
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
No you seem to have everything backwards. Jesus was fulfilling a bunch of 'extra' laws, not the Ten. The ten always stand; Christians are under them, but some laws are modified, and certainly, we are not under priestly rabbinical authority concerning the Shabbat.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
Ro 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
Who are the “WE” in Rom 3:9? Paul and the Jews and from here to
Ro 3:29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
You see how Paul and the Jews together in contrast with the Gentiles and in Chapter 4:1 Paul continued his arguments as a Jew or speaking as Jew.
Ro 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
“as pertaining to the flesh” Paul and the Semitic Jews, the 12 tribes, came genetically “as pertaining to the flesh” from Abraham.
Ro 4:16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
How did the Gentiles fit into this promise, the promise of God to Abraham? Not through human genealogy of course, as in verse 1 or “pertaining to the flesh”, but through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Gentiles cannot in any way be a part of Abraham’s offspring genetically. The only way a Gentile can be a part of Abraham is by faith –Rom 4:16.
Gentile Christians are the spiritual offspring of Abraham through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
Sir, you cannot explain it any better than this.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
The Jews in Paul's day are not the 12 tribes. They only consist of the two tribes of Judah that returned to Jerusalem from captivity. Some from the tribe of Judah and most of the other 10 tribes were scattered amongst the nations [gentiles] and had lost their identity and considered themselves as 'gentiles'. Just like I was prior to my DNA results.
Nowhere in Rom 4:16 does it say "only" faith is required. Rom 4:1 combined with vs 16 as well as the new covenant promise, which Paul said only pertains to Israelites (Rom 9:4; Heb 8:8-10), reveal both faith and ancestry are required. It's not either or, both are required!
james2ko
Well-Known Member
HUh?? That's my whole point. Nowhere did I say Christ did away with the 10???
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Afaik, member Yes didn't either. In order to 'prove' him wrong, you have to prove he isn't keeping the Shabbat day holy.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
I have nothing to prove. I'm just sharing my beliefs. Like everyone else on the forum. Havent posted in a while. Thought I'd pop in and do some catching up. Prepping for a "Lost Tribes of Israel" class. Probably won't be posting much for the next few months. Anyway gotta go hit the "book". Until next time. Thanks for the discussion. God Bless you all!
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Actually that's not what I meant. I meant, scripturally, the 'proof' is in demonstrating that the traditional methods of how xians keep Shabbat /usually/, aren't in terms with Jesus' teachings, and the ten commandments, ie. 'keep the Sabbath day holy'. It's a general statement, not like 'competing sabbaths'.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
You should read the whole chapter 11 of Romans to understand that Gentiles were not Jews or descendants of Jacob.
Jews blindness was prophesied in the Book of Acts chapter 13.
Ac 13:6 And when they had gone through the whole island unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew/Elymas, whose name was Bar-jesus;
Sergius Paulus a Gentile wanted to hear the word of God [Acts 13:7] from Paul and Barnabas but Elymas, a Jew, “withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. –Acts 13:8”
Ac 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
Ac 13:10 And said, O full of all subtlety and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
Ac 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
This is a "type" of the "Jews" rejecting Christ again for the second time:
1st was during Christ earthly ministry, 2nd was after the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
So, what happened here was, the Jews/TYPE/ELYMAS, because of UNBELIEF, was, “and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season.” Compare this to Romans 11:7
Now, see what happened to Sergius Paulus/TYPE/Gentiles.
Ac 13:12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.
This was the beginning of the salvation of the Gentiles by Paul and we can read this in details in Romans 11.
IN THE BOOK OF ROMANS CHAPTER 11
Ro 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded Jews/TYPE/ELYMAS –Acts 13.
Ro 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day.Ro 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Ro 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.
Ro 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles/TYPE/SERGIUS PAULUS –Acts 13, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Paul’s warning to the Gentiles about being arrogant:
Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Ro 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded/ARROGANT, but fear:
NOW, we will see the word “MYSTERY/MUSTERION” IN THE FF VERSE, AND THIS IS VERY INTERESTING.
In the NT it denotes, not the mysterious as with the English word, but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by Divine revelation, and is made known in an manner and at a time/season [Acts 13] appointed by God, and to those only who are illumined by His Spirit. –W.E. Vine.
IOW, this mystery/musterion about the temporary blindness of Israel that was prophesied in Acts 13 was revealed to the Gentiles, but Paul warned the Gentiles not to be arrogant about this revelation or “mystery/musterion” about the blindness of Israel because it’s only “for a season –Acts 13:11” “until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. –Rom. 11:25”
Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be IGNORANT [or lack of knowledge] of this mystery/MUSTERION, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits [ARROGANT like Elymas]; that blindness/Jews/TYPE/ELYMAS in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
“Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in” Remember in Acts 13:11”not seeing the sun for a season.” Meaning Israel’s blindness is not permanent “until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in” then “all Israel shall be saved: Romans 11:26”
Like Elymas [Jews/TYPE/ELYMAS], you were blinded also. You were prophesied to believe whatever you want to believe. You can inject all your theology, all these would not matter because you were prophesied not to see and not to hear the truth, "until the fullness of the Gentiles/TYPE/SERGIUS PAULUS be come in", I.E., if you are a Jew of course. Paul was talking about the literal Gentiles and not the “[Israelite] gentiles” you are talking about. There is no such thing as “[Israelite] gentiles”
Now, the question is who are the true Semitic Jews today?
Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
You read this 144,000 came from the 12 tribes of Israel. These are the true Semitic Jews and the rest of mankind are Gentiles.
Rev 14:4 These, the 144,000 Semitic Jews, are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure [Semitically pure]. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.
Compare these verses from your statement here
The Babylonian exile diluted the racial purity of the 12 tribes of Israel. IOW, during the Diaspora, the Jews were marrying or interbreeding with the Gentiles and therefore un-preserving the racial purity of the Semitic people or they are being hybridized.
The black, Chinese, and Spanish were proselytes to Judaism. You can tell the Black/Jews, Chinese/Jews, and Spanish/Jews have some physical similarities with their Gentiles host-countries.
Want to know about God? Then ask God? A Christian is given God’s Holy Spirit to tell him or her about God.
Accepting man’s answers about God is just believing in someone’s assumptions as to God.
(1 John 2: 27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you; the anointing he gave teaches you everything: you are anointed with truth, not with a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”
james2ko
Well-Known Member
You should read the whole chapter 11 of Romans to understand that Gentiles were not Jews or descendants of Jacob.
Jews blindness was prophesied in the Book of Acts chapter 13.
Ac 13:6 And when they had gone through the whole island unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew/Elymas, whose name was Bar-jesus;
Sergius Paulus a Gentile wanted to hear the word of God [Acts 13:7] from Paul and Barnabas but Elymas, a Jew, “withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. –Acts 13:8”
Ac 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
Ac 13:10 And said, O full of all subtlety and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
Ac 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
This is a "type" of the "Jews" rejecting Christ again for the second time:
1st was during Christ earthly ministry, 2nd was after the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
So, what happened here was, the Jews/TYPE/ELYMAS, because of UNBELIEF, was, “and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season.” Compare this to Romans 11:7
Now, see what happened to Sergius Paulus/TYPE/Gentiles.
Ac 13:12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.
This was the beginning of the salvation of the Gentiles by Paul and we can read this in details in Romans 11.
IN THE BOOK OF ROMANS CHAPTER 11
Ro 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded Jews/TYPE/ELYMAS –Acts 13.
Ro 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
Ro 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Ro 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.
Ro 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles/TYPE/SERGIUS PAULUS –Acts 13, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Paul’s warning to the Gentiles about being arrogant:
Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Ro 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded/ARROGANT, but fear:
NOW, we will see the word “MYSTERY/MUSTERION” IN THE FF VERSE, AND THIS IS VERY INTERESTING.
In the NT it denotes, not the mysterious as with the English word, but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by Divine revelation, and is made known in an manner and at a time/season [Acts 13] appointed by God, and to those only who are illumined by His Spirit. –W.E. Vine.
IOW, this mystery/musterion about the temporary blindness of Israel that was prophesied in Acts 13 was revealed to the Gentiles, but Paul warned the Gentiles not to be arrogant about this revelation or “mystery/musterion” about the blindness of Israel because it’s only “for a season –Acts 13:11” “until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. –Rom. 11:25”
Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be IGNORANT [or lack of knowledge] of this mystery/MUSTERION, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits [ARROGANT like Elymas]; that blindness/Jews/TYPE/ELYMAS in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
“Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in” Remember in Acts 13:11”not seeing the sun for a season.” Meaning Israel’s blindness is not permanent “until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in” then “all Israel shall be saved: Romans 11:26”
Like Elymas [Jews/TYPE/ELYMAS], you were blinded also. You were prophesied to believe whatever you want to believe. You can inject all your theology, all these would not matter because you were prophesied not to see and not to hear the truth, "until the fullness of the Gentiles/TYPE/SERGIUS PAULUS be come in", I.E., if you are a Jew of course. Paul was talking about the literal Gentiles and not the “[Israelite] gentiles” you are talking about. There is no such thing as “[Israelite] gentiles”
Now, the question is who are the true Semitic Jews today?
Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
You read this 144,000 came from the 12 tribes of Israel. These are the true Semitic Jews and the rest of mankind are Gentiles.
Rev 14:4 These, the 144,000 Semitic Jews, are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure [Semitically pure]. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.
Compare these verses from your statement here The Babylonian exile diluted the racial purity of the 12 tribes of Israel. IOW, during the Diaspora, the Jews were marrying or interbreeding with the Gentiles and therefore un-preserving the racial purity of the Semitic people or they are being hybridized.
The black, Chinese, and Spanish were proselytes to Judaism. You can tell the Black/Jews, Chinese/Jews, and Spanish/Jews have some physical similarities with their Gentiles host-countries.
I could post a whole lot of material concerning these passages. But it would be futile as you see the Jews of the 1st century as the 12 tribes which in fact they are not. The Jews in the 1st century were descendants of the house of Judah which consisted of only two tribes and the Levites. They lived in Judah, sometimes referred to as Israel, and scattered throughout the Greek and Roman gentiles [nations] , yet were still considered Jews.
The house of Israel were never called Jews. They were referred to as Israel--the lost ten tribes who were also scattered and through their divorce from God, lived as Greek, Roman, etc gentiles. These are the people whom God was reconciling back to Himself primarily through Paul.
In other words, all Jews can be Israel/Israelites, but all Israel/Israelites cannot be Jews. Similarly, all New Yorkers can be Americans, but all Americans cannot be New Yorkers. I do have a request:
Can you find me an OT reference where all twelve tribes were definitively referred to as Jews?
james2ko
Well-Known Member
Let's see:
Thayers definition G4137-fulfill
1. to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
a. to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
1. I abound, I am liberally supplied
2. to render full, i.e. to complete
a. to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
b. to consummate: a number
1. to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
2. to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
c. to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
1. of matters of duty: to perform, execute
2. of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
3. to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
He completely carried out and perfectly executed the ultimate sacrifice to the end, and paid the penalty for sin once and for all. Paul tells us this act suspended the sacrifices. He also magnified the law by completing or perfecting our understanding . Our understanding of adultery, murder, revenge, borrowing, enemies, and other laws outlined in the chapter was made more complete. No contraction here.a. to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
1. I abound, I am liberally supplied
2. to render full, i.e. to complete
a. to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
b. to consummate: a number
1. to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
2. to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
c. to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
1. of matters of duty: to perform, execute
2. of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
3. to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
You do not have to tell me what Thayer says.
Jesus fulfilled the law. That means we do not have to adhere to the ceremonial law anymore.
You keep speaking about our having to obey all of the Ten Commandments. We do have to obey them, except not the one about observing special days; and, I am not saying that we just have to go by nine of the ten commandments, for all scripture is God breathed and useful for rebuking in training---but AGAIN, we do not have to observe special days anymore because Jesus fulfilled them.
The WHOLE Bible is a teaching on how to love.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
Sounds a bit contradicting. So what you are saying is that we do have to obey the 10 except one, but you are not saying that we should keep nine???? James implied the 10 stand and fall together (Jas 2:10). We know he's talking about the 10 because in the very next verse he summarizes two of them.
Jas 2:10-11 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
Unless you are ready to admit the other 8 commandments do not have to be obeyed, the fourth commandment has to be kept or you break them all.
BummerBeavis
Member
the christians most of them have a trinity for a god instead of the monotheistic God of Torah. it is a rather un biblical religion mixed with Babylonian religion.