Should Christians participate in wars ?

[KerimF]

However, I think everyone has right to defend himself and his country.

Yes, everyone has this right but this doesn't make him a disciple of Jesus. Jesus didn't resist his killers though he had all the means to do it. Jesus on the cross even forgave openly whoever was celebrating with joy the death of his body. Also Jesus didn't defend later his Apostles and First Disciples who were facing real hard days.

The reason is simple. Jesus is not of this world, and whoever agrees on what he says is also not of this world anymore. But those who have to be of this world have no choice but to follow their natural instincts of survival (as all other living things are supposed to do); starting from the right of self-defense and the duty of defending one's country.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This Roman centurion believed in Jesus as a healer only and got what he asked for.

On the other hand, Jesus, being all-knowledge, knows in advance that ordinary people don't listen seriously to another ordinary one (best example here in forums). Naturally, peoples are attracted by whatever a powerful rich group may say (via its official speakers) in public. So what Jesus did to the servant is just another miracle to attract the attention of another type of people at that time.

Now, miracles are of no use anymore since Jesus sayings could be accessed by almost any human anywhere on earth (though many of them cannot be heard from preachers because they contradict all known laws in the world).

Um, okay. None of that has anything to do with what I said. Oh, and Jesus marveled at the faith of the centurion, so it was obviously more than him just viewing Christ as a faith healer. Not sure why you're trying to minimize it.

 

[Valjean]

If they believe it is a just cause to fight for, and they are physically and mentally capable, certainly.

But how would they do that without violating the moral principles outlined in the New Testament, as well as the 6th commandment from the Old?

 

[74x12]

I'm sorry you feel that way about conscientious objectors.
But you should be aware that refusing to be forced to kill other does definitely not mean that others are expected to agree to that.
Ideally if no one could be coerced to go to war, there wouldn't be any.
Taking the stand of being peaceful is not as easy as some might think.

I do not feel that way about conscientious objectors. That's just how I reason it out to myself. But conscientious objectors really believe God doesn't allow them to go to war to fight and that if they do; they will displease God. So I think they're doing the right thing.

 

[Valjean]

Jesus' teaching was about attaining to a spiritual kingdom, Heaven, not about some impossible concept of a paradise on Earth.

But our period on Earth is a testing and refining process, is it not? God's separating the sheep from the goats, so to speak.
Those who adhere to moral principles and abjure sin are acceptable in God's kingdom. Those who are practical and accede to society's demands are defective and are discarded.

God fills Heaven with radical peaceniks, martyrs, moral dissidents, anti war and civil rights demonstrators, &c. God wants radicals, not normal people, and certainly not those who've achieved economic success by working the system. Heaven is for those condemned by their societies.

 

[74x12]

Only genuine Christians can do this. Nothing could make them take up arms to fight and kill their brother of another nation over politics. They will take a bullet for their brother, but they would never fire one.

Nothing at all? If your fellow genuine Christian is about to burn your house down you won't stop him?

Conscientious objectors will call the police or they will rely on the protection of the army but they won't do those things themselves. I know conscientious objectors mean well. But, I'm sorry to say ... I think that's a bit hypocritical to condemn others for what you know needs to be done. I don't think God agrees with it. In fact according to Romans 13 it can be argued that God gives them the authority and sword to ultimately kill evildoers.

We are counseled by Jesus to "love our enemies"....how can we do that with a weapon? (Matthew 5:43-44)
There is NO justification for war that rises above what Jesus taught in the scriptures. That is the test of our mettle.

But Jesus still calls them enemies. They are enemies and there is nothing you can do about it even though you are trying to love them. At some point you may have to fight them just like you may have to fight a dog with rabbis that is about to bite you or your family. Do you hate a dog for getting rabbis? No, but you still have to put him down before they hurt someone.

I guess you have to ask who told them that is was "right"? Why do we always see the clergy supporting the military, placating troubled consciences, and cozying up to the world, as if Christ had somehow spoken something other than what he taught in the scriptures....? (James 4:4)

Even though the Law of Moses said "thou shalt not kill" yet the Israelites had to fight and Solomon said in his wisdom that there is a time for a war.

How many return from those wars with messed up mental health because Christians know in their heart that it is unchristian to take up arms against our enemies and kill them. It completely goes against their conscience. We will have no part in even peripheral activities that support the war effort. We will contribute nothing to it....because it is not our war. This world is not our Kingdom, so we will not fight for it. (1 John 5:19) Having said that, we would not fight against it either. Like Jesus, we take a neutral position, not involving ourselves at all, whilst remaining law abiding in every other way.

War is traumatizing but that doesn't mean it's the soldier's fault.

A car wreck can be traumatizing and cause PTSD. A divorce etc. A lot of things. And those things aren't necessarily your own fault. They could be the other person's fault or they could be an accident. And that's my point. War is traumatizing but that doesn't mean it's the fault of the person who is traumatized.

Morally justified? Is there such a thing these days? The only person who can justify a war is God....and he has not done so since the days of ancient Israel when he supported their defense of their God-given land from those who wanted to take it away from them.
Whose land are those in conflict defending today? Usually land that was stolen off someone else.

When people fight to defend themselves.

I am sorry for those who fall for the patriotic position, as if it were somehow on a par with their Christian faith....love of one's country can never come before our moral duty to love God and remain obedient to the teachings of his son. That is the position I take.

Well I disagree. I think that Jesus did not leave Christians in the world to just be living off the protection heathens and unbelievers provide. It doesn't seem right that we enjoy their protection and yet condemn them for doing what needed to be done because any where there is civilization there are always some barbarians howling at the gate. If you can stop those barbarians with preaching at them; then that's good. But if not then you should be ready to defend your friends and family.

 

[74x12]

But Jesus is not of this world as I am not of this world anymore while I live the unconditional love towards all others, even towards who are created to play my enemies.

I don't mean fight for the kingdom of God with physical violence if that's what you're talking about.

 

[Valjean]

Yes, everyone has this right but this doesn't make him a disciple of Jesus. Jesus didn't resist his killers though he had all the means to do it. Jesus on the cross even forgave openly whoever was celebrating with joy the death of his body. Also Jesus didn't defend later his Apostles and First Disciples who were facing real hard days.

The reason is simple. Jesus is not of this world, and whoever agrees on what he says is also not of this world anymore. But those who have to be of this world have no choice but to follow their natural instincts of survival (as all other living things are supposed to do); starting from the right of self-defense and the duty of defending one's country.

We are not of this world. We're here to see who chooses worldly success and who accepts the short-term consequences of abstract morality.

Jesus hates patriotism and tribalism. He does not believe in allegiance to country. He does not see Jews or gentiles, slave or free, males or females. All are brothers

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians, 3:28.

 

[metis]

Even though I flirted with Gandhi's complete non-violent approach, I eventually settled on the Just-War Theory that sharply limits when war is morally acceptable and how much force can be used.

Just war theory - Wikipedia

 

[KerimF]

We are not of this world. We're here to see who chooses worldly success and who accepts the short-term consequences of abstract morality.

Jesus hates patriotism and tribalism. He does not believe in allegiance to country. He does not see Jews or gentiles, slave or free, males or females. All are brothers

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians, 3:28.

Jesus knows already that humans are not created all of the same nature. Many of them (actually their great majority) are not created for themselves but to just serve the material world while being driven by their natural instincts to build it and/or destroy it; much like all other living things are created for. So patriotism, tribalism, and allegiance to country will exist on the planet Earth as long there are humans living on it.

Actually, Jesus message addresses individuals, not any group of people. The reason is simple. Jesus message focuses on how to feed one's soul (if one perceives it) by living the unconditional love towards all others; friends and enemies (good and evil, just and unjust). This contradicts clearly the law of any ruling system on earth and the proper membership to any formal group; social, sportive, religious or political.
Living such Love is strictly based on the 'sole free will' that a human may have (that is to follow or not his instincts of survival). All other actions/reactions and decisions of a human follow the pre-programmed instructions embedded in his living flesh (though the rather complex conditional jumps among these instructions give him the impression that he is free).

 

[Ben Dhyan]

But our period on Earth is a testing and refining process, is it not? God's separating the sheep from the goats, so to speak.
Those who adhere to moral principles and abjure sin are acceptable in God's kingdom. Those who are practical and accede to society's demands are defective and are discarded.

God fills Heaven with radical peaceniks, martyrs, moral dissidents, anti war and civil rights demonstrators, &c. God wants radicals, not normal people, and certainly not those who've achieved economic success by working the system. Heaven is for those condemned by their societies.

Heaven is realized by the spiritual purified, not by the impure according to the teaching. The kingdom of God is within you, but not yet realized by the impure.

 

[Aštra’el]

There is no “should”.

Will you? Or will you not? If your people are being attacked, will you sit by and say “No, I will not participate”, or will you stand and fight? If your country must fight to retain its way of life, will you go to war to defend that way of life? Or will you not? If your country is waging war to expand its territory, spread its culture, and strengthen its position in the world, will you join with those who conquer? Or will you not?

War is fought for many reasons. A Christian- or some other person of some other religion- who fights a war may or may not be doing so in a way that goes against their God(s). Whether or not their God(s) would approve, I would say depends on the deity as well as the soldier’s intent throughout their campaign. And whether or not it makes the individual “a bad Christian” or Muslim/ Jew/ pagan/ whatever, all depends on how they choose to embrace their religion and what they feel inside when they wage their war. For some, the connection between God(s) and man feels strongest when fighting- actually fighting- for what they believe in, and when faced with the dangerous life or death situations experienced in war.

 

[KerimF]

Jesus marveled at the faith of the centurion, so it was obviously more than him just viewing Christ as a faith healer. Not sure why you're trying to minimize it.

Yes, Jesus did marvel at the faith of the centurion to show me that anyone (even an atheist) can get what he needs really if he has such strong true faith to get it. This is one of the natural truths which are revealed by Jesus, directly or indirectly. So I won't be surprised hearing that a Jew, a Muslim, a Hindu, a Buddhist... etc. (or even an atheist) lived a sort of miracle in his life because of his deep strong faith.

In other words, this centurion got what he needs because he believed to no limit that Jesus has indeed the power to heal his servant... not because he decided to be a disciple of Jesus and follow his teachings of the unconditional love.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This probably isn't the week to be praising the history of Christian "charity."

‘Not an apology’: Pope’s statement on residential school deaths angers those seeking accountability from church

Actual teachers' students have free will, too. We're still able to judge the quality of a teacher by how successful they are at educating students.

If half of a high school physics teacher's class don't understand physics by the end of the year, we don't shrug it off with a "meh - free will! What are you gonna do?"

For myself I believe firmly in Christ and His teachings. He set the perfect example for all humanity to follow. And many Christians have represented His Cause with pure and goodly deeds. But there are insincere people not only in religion but throughout all sectors of society who commit atrocities. To confine wrongdoing to only one sector or group I believe is an unfair judgement.

Generalising like this, I believe is unjust as there are many wonderful Christians and attempting to paint all of them with the same brush is just plain wrong. There are good and bad people everywhere and not one group are entirely bad. There is good in every religion and I believe it is prejudice to negatively label and judge an entire group or religion.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I am afraid that, in reality, those who 'head' such formal humanitarian organizations, as the ones you mentioned above for example, are actually serving certain powerful rich groups to cover up their crimes, besides other non-humanitarian purposes. But please note that it doesn't matter if this sounds weird, if not nonsense, to you and many others, because this sad truth is not supposed to be known by the world's multitudes; mainly by those who devoted themselves really to serve others in such organisations (though some of them will discover it sooner or later).

Perhaps so but there are so many wonderful souls dedicated to serve the well-being of others and I don’t wish to detract from that fact. We should I believe celebrate those who serve humanity.

 

[KerimF]

Perhaps so but there are so many wonderful souls dedicated to serve the well-being of others and I don’t wish to detract from that fact. We should I believe celebrate those who serve humanity.

There is nothing wrong in what you say.
But, based on my rather long personal observations on the ground, I am always ready to trust free independent persons (individuals), but not any formal privileged group. Such a group, said humanitarian or else, cannot exist without being supported, protected and guided by some powerful rich persons who have their own agenda (usually political) in every investment they make. The irony is that I wish you not believe what I say because in this case ignorance is bliss

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In a few words here are four examples of Christians involvement in wars:






In November 1095, at the Council of Clermont in southern France, the Pope called on Western Christians to take up arms to aid the Byzantines and recapture the Holy Land from Muslim control. This marked the beginning of the Crusades.

Pope Urban’s call for war was met with a tremendous response, both among the military elite as well as ordinary citizens. Those who joined the armed pilgrimage wore a cross as a symbol of the Church.

In the first world war: while some British Christians did become conscientious objectors, the vast majority supported the war and well over a million practicing Christians enlisted. For many it was a matter of Christian duty and conscience.

In the second world war ordinary Catholics fought on both sides of the conflict, each side claiming God's support, whilst fighting each other.

the Catholic Church signed a concordat with the Nazi government in 1933 and “the collusion between the Protestant churches and the Nazi regime was even closer, helped by anti-Semitic tradition in German Protestantism” (84). The fact that pastors like Dietrich Bonhoeffer were radicals in the church for opposing this collusion is an indication that such opposition was not the norm among Protestant churches. Therefore, the historical fact of such pastors is not reason enough, argues Baggini, for Christians to celebrate.

The question is:

Considering the principles that Christ laid down, how can a christian defend his involvement in a war ?

Can a Christian join military service (conscription), if so what would he/she do if ordered to participate in armed warfare ?

Is there a conflict between "loving my neighbor" and shooting at him. Does following order of a military leader, politician or church head relieve me of accountability ?

It seems to be an easy question.
Do you agree or do you think differently ?

No, Not Christian involvement in wars but ' Christendom '(so-called Christians ) because Jesus and his followers were politically neutral.
They did Not even get involved in the issues of the day between the Jews verses the Romans but remained neutral.
Christians put on ' spiritual armor ' Ephesians chapter 6

 

[loverofhumanity]

There is nothing wrong in what you say.
But, based on my rather long personal observations on the ground, I am always ready to trust free independent persons (individuals), but not any formal privileged group. Such a group, said humanitarian or else, cannot exist without being supported, protected and guided by some powerful rich persons who have their own agenda (usually political) in every investment they make. The irony is that I wish you not believe what I say because in this case ignorance is bliss

I agree fully we live in a corrupt world and I also acknowledge things like manipulation by some of organisations with a philanthropic nature as an umbrella to commit wrongdoing and evil.

But I think we need to be careful lest we foster prejudice against those who are innocent. I think we can best avoid this by not generalising about any group, race, culture or religion.

Ignorance is bliss applies equally to prejudice where we taint entire groups and tarnish their good name because of a few who are corrupt or manipulative.

So by all means call out the corrupt but there are innocent good people who have done no wrong and who’s only aim is to serve humanity.

 

[Neuropteron]

Depends on the war. Jesus didn't tell the Roman centurion whose servant He healed to give up his career as a solider. Yahweh wasn't a pacifist in the OT and if Joan of Arc is to be believed, He still isn't. War is something that will always exist until the world ends. What is more important is protecting and defending the vulnerable, and upholding justice. Sometimes force is required in those areas. If I saw someone being attacked in the street, it would be my duty as a fellow citizen to be prepared to use force - deadly, even - to help them, if practical. Otherwise you're just another coward who walks by and ignores it.

Hi,
You make a valid argument.
The O.P. however was about wars promoted by National and religious leaders, not about self defense or helping others.

 

[Valjean]

There is no “should”.

Will you? Or will you not? If your people are being attacked, will you sit by and say “No, I will not participate”, or will you stand and fight?

But according to Christ, my attackers are just as much "my people" as, well.... my next door neighbors.
Christians are enjoined to love their enemies; to pray for them, not to shoot them.
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

If your country must fight to retain its way of life, will you go to war to defend that way of life? Or will you not? If your country is waging war to expand its territory, spread its culture, and strengthen its position in the world, will you join with those who conquer? Or will you not?

Good point. One's country is an accident of birth. One owes it nothing, nor does it have any claim on your loyalty.
A Christian has no country, he sees all men as brothers -- 'neither Jew or Gentile'. He loves his enemies,
He may be on the Earth, but he's not of it. It's just temporary. He seeks no benefit here, but lays up his treasures in his permanent home..

War is fought for many reasons.

But they're always worldly reasons, and always zero sum. One group of rich men benefits, another loses, and those with no stake in the affair do the fighting.

A Christian- or some other person of some other religion- who fights a war may or may not be doing so in a way that goes against their God(s). Whether or not their God(s) would approve, I would say depends on the deity as well as the soldier’s intent throughout their campaign. And whether or not it makes the individual “a bad Christian” or Muslim/ Jew/ pagan/ whatever, all depends on how they choose to embrace their religion and what they feel inside when they wage their war. For some, the connection between God(s) and man feels strongest when fighting- actually fighting- for what they believe in, and when faced with the dangerous life or death situations experienced in war.

Christians, Muslims, Jews, Pagans -- all are bad Christians, Jews, Muslims and Pagans if they violate the Golden Rule.