Should Cocaine and Heroin be legalized along with Marijuana?

[Mathematician]

Slip of the tongue?

I don't think current drugs can offer much. Even the euphoriants are generally cheap and nasty ways to get happy. Rewiring the brain through genetic engineeringt to get an eternal euphoric well-being sounds like the way forward.

If the whole world was experiencing an MDMA rush, there would be no war, haha.

 

[otokage007]

I think anything that can be dangerous for the consumer and for those who are around him, shouldn't have the help of the gobernment and therefore shouldn't be legalized.

 

[Yerda]

I think anything that can be dangerous for the consumer and for those who are around him, shouldn't have the help of the gobernment and therefore shouldn't be legalized.

Then we should start with the car. And of course, painkillers would have to go.

 

[Yerda]

No Certainly no,t but we deal with the danger by taking lessons passing driving tests, have road crossings that are designed to minimize the danger , have to have insurance ,etc,etc

Educating people about drugs could play a greater role in making drug use safe for persons and society. Decriminalising some substances could help us, as a society, to resolves some of the issues that avail drug use. As a costs to benefits analysis, it looks like a no brainer - better all round.

I'd like to ask those who oppose decriminalisation:

Are your reasons based on the benefits to individual health?
Reducing wasted resources?
Lowering violent and petty crime?
Personal freedom?

Do you have information on those aspects?

Maybe it would be more productive to highlight our reasons, and our reasons for our reasons.

 

[Yerda]

If the whole world was experiencing an MDMA rush, there would be no war, haha.

There wouldn't be a lot on the day after, either.

 

[Enoughie]

Then we should start with the car. And of course, painkillers would have to go.

and alcohol, and tobacco, and red meat.

 

[otokage007]

Then we should start with the car. And of course, painkillers would have to go.

Sure, but the car has a lot of benefits and there is a large list of security rules that, if followed, the risk of using it isn't substancial at all. The same with medicines.

However, cocaine, heroine or marihuana has no unique benefits, and put the consumer and those around him in a lot of risks. Also, there's no security rules we can follow to make those substances less toxic.

and alcohol, and tobacco, and red meat.

I agree with the tobacco and alcohol prohibition. But doesn't seem very intelligent to me to forbid food.

Personal freedom

As long as you live in society, you can't have 100% personal freedom. If you want that, you better go to some isolated place.

Consuming drugs isn't inteligent and have no benefits to our health. Also, drugs often put you in a state where you are a danger to yourself and to those around you. If you want to drug yourself, cool, go somewhere to buy them and consume then in private, but don't expect your country to happily put that venom on the shops for you.

 

[Mathematician]

Marijuana is completely harmless to 99% of the population if you eat it or vaporize it.

 

[bobhikes]

Marijuana is completely harmless to 99% of the population if you eat it or vaporize it.

Unfortunately your not when you use it.

 

[Yerda]

Sure, but the car has a lot of benefits and there is a large list of security rules that, if followed, the risk of using it isn't substancial at all.

How do you define substantial? Can you demonstrate that the dangers are not substantial?

However, cocaine, heroine or marihuana has no unique benefits, and put the consumer and those around him in a lot of risks.

Are you defining benefit as something you approve of?

I find it beneficial to feel euphoric sometimes. I mean, it feels good and feeling good is good. Sometimes I like a help to feel relaxed. Sometimes lievely. If taking some substances in safe dosages can achieve this is it not the same principal as taking substances that act on headaches, or tiredness, or pollen allergy?

Also, there's no security rules we can follow to make those substances less toxic.

Some of them have no toxicity below certain threshold levels, and all of them have safe dosages.

Consuming drugs isn't inteligent and have no benefits to our health. Also, drugs often put you in a state where you are a danger to yourself and to those around you. If you want to drug yourself, cool, go somewhere to buy them and consume then in private, but don't expect your country to happily put that venom on the shops for you.

It's pretty evident that your opposition to drugs is a personal prejudice. This is fine as long as you understand it.

For the record I don't expect anyone to put them in shops. A legal and regulated trade might be a positive move for society and common sense but I don't expect people to overcome these quasi-religious taboos. I do believe decriminalisation is achievable, and that the benefits would drastically outweigh the costs. Throughout this thread several people have argued from this prespective using references to economics, the drug war, the experiences of alcohol prohibtion, health and treatment, personal freedoms, and personal experience.

On that note though, with legalisation:

We could eliminate the criminal gangs who exist due to a criminal drugs trade.

We could improve care for addicts.

We could stop destroying other peoples countries.

We could guarantee safety standards.

We could stop persecuting the drug users who are causing harm to noone, or themselves only.

We could save a fortune.

We could bring into the mainsream economy a massive industry.

 

[Yerda]

Unfortunately your not when you use it.

Rubbish.

 

[bobhikes]

Rubbish.

I remember playing volly ball at a club with a group of stoned girls and guys. We couldn't think straight enough to keep score and we keep slaming into each other a loss of coordination. We all had a good laugh about it.

Now I'm a father with two son's. How dangerous would I be to them stoned. How dangerous would I be driving.

Another story, typically I just got a good high and felt great one time I took a panic attack. I start worrying about everything thinking bad things were going to happen I don't know I might have be dangerous to others fortunately none were around.

I guess its just my friends and me. Everybody else is just high no other negative effects.

 

[Acim]

Sure, but the car has a lot of benefits and there is a large list of security rules that, if followed, the risk of using it isn't substancial at all. The same with medicines.

However, cocaine, heroine or marihuana has no unique benefits, and put the consumer and those around him in a lot of risks. Also, there's no security rules we can follow to make those substances less toxic.

Consuming drugs isn't inteligent and have no benefits to our health. Also, drugs often put you in a state where you are a danger to yourself and to those around you. If you want to drug yourself, cool, go somewhere to buy them and consume then in private, but don't expect your country to happily put that venom on the shops for you.

There are benefits to using drugs. You say, "has no unique benefits" but that could be said in relation to whole bunch of type of foods. Even with automobile, or say types of automobiles. If you are familiar with cocaine and familiar with marijuana, you realize they are as different in effect, and I would say benefit, as say an egg is different from orange juice. Perhaps I am mixing up benefit with feature, but not with overall food types. We could all just eat certain types of foods and get rid of variety, so that we get same benefits, disallowing unique features / tastes, and likely making for 'better health.' Obviously, such a movement if enacted in society would be catastrophic, especially if it was pushed and certain foods were made more or less illegal.

To assume that all cocaine users are presenting significant harm to themselves and to society is preposterous. Pretty sure you wouldn't say that, even though implication is there. If we go down to 50%, that might find more agreement from proponents of cocaine use and those adamantly opposed. But the more those adamantly opposed are open to honestly understanding benefits, I think that percentage goes down. Likewise, the more that proponents are empowered to teach realities of use to all possible / potential users, I think societal problems go down. But when something is illegal and has heavy bias against it, such teaching is akin to, "why don't we teach 12 year olds about homosexual lifestyle in a conservative neighborhood."

As someone who doesn't ingest any drug, other than occasional aspirin, I feel I can speak critically and with sense of objectivity (not real objectivity, but ya know), about how these sort of drugs are producing (ultimately) false benefits. Thing is I think same thing about all, or vast majority, of pharmaceuticals. That is perhaps another debate for another thread, but relates to this one in sense of being very objective about actual benefits, rather than perceived benefits in consideration with 'known' cons.

Benefits of cocaine that I am aware of:
- increases energy output (temporarily)
- increases focus (temporarily)
- lowers inhibitions, releases stress

Benefits of marijuana that I am aware of:
- increases creativity (temporarily)
- may increase focus on certain types of activities (temporarily)
- lowers inhibitions, releases stress
- not to mention all the medical uses that we've now come to allow (legally)
- not to mention uses plant has apart from ingesting THC

Does this mean we ignore the cons and don't consider them? I would say no, that would be foolish. But to claim these drugs that have high demand, and are being used by persons who are not addicts / addicted, are 'of no unique benefit' is simply ignorant toward reaching long term solution with how these substances are handled by society.

The 'scared straight' tactics have clearly not worked, and IMO, IMX, I am thoroughly convinced the downplaying of these drugs as "only harmful" has had the exact opposite effect in getting handle on the pervasive use and abuse of these substances.

 

[Acim]

How dangerous would I be driving.

Shall we ban text messaging, since when one is driving and texting, it is harmful? I mean, clearly driving isn't a problem, people do that all the time. But text messaging AND driving is big problem, so by logic being invoked, the proper solution is to ban text messaging across the board.

Text messaging has no unique benefit (email can handle that, as can stopping to make a call).

 

[bobhikes]

Shall we ban text messaging, since when one is driving and texting, it is harmful? I mean, clearly driving isn't a problem, people do that all the time. But text messaging AND driving is big problem, so by logic being invoked, the proper solution is to ban text messaging across the board.

Text messaging has no unique benefit (email can handle that, as can stopping to make a call).

We do ban texting and cell phone use while driving. It is illegal in my State.

I not against drugs I believe all people should be allowed to do what ever they want in the privacy of there home. As soon as they step outside they can be arrested.

 

[Yerda]

I remember playing volly ball at a club with a group of stoned girls and guys. We couldn't think straight enough to keep score and we keep slaming into each other a loss of coordination. We all had a good laugh about it.

Now I'm a father with two son's. How dangerous would I be to them stoned. How dangerous would I be driving.

Another story, typically I just got a good high and felt great one time I took a panic attack. I start worrying about everything thinking bad things were going to happen I don't know I might have be dangerous to others fortunately none were around.

I guess its just my friends and me. Everybody else is just high no other negative effects.

I certainly wouldn't advocate getting high while having children in your care. So I suppose that's a fair point.

 

[otokage007]

How do you define substantial? Can you demonstrate that the dangers are not substantial?

Maybe you will know when you get your driving license. (Please don’t tell me you already have one )

I find it beneficial to feel euphoric sometimes. I mean, it feels good and feeling good is good. Sometimes I like a help to feel relaxed. Sometimes lievely. If taking some substances in safe dosages can achieve this is it not the same principal as taking substances that act on headaches, or tiredness, or pollen allergy?

I said unique benefits. There’s a lot of medicines that can help you feel better. I hope we aren’t having this discussion because you went to the doctor begging for drugs and he didn’t prescribe them to you

Some of them have no toxicity below certain threshold levels, and all of them have safe dosages.

That’s for a doctor to decide, so sorry but you still have to study A LOT to say such a thing.

It's pretty evident that your opposition to drugs is a personal prejudice. This is fine as long as you understand it.

Prejudgement? I don’t think so, judgement maybe. On the other hand, I think you may be the one involved personally into this. Too many times the cops have caught you, haven’t they? You little naughty

For the record I don't expect anyone to put them in shops. A legal and regulated trade might be a positive move for society and common sense but I don't expect people to overcome these quasi-religious taboos.

Acim and Jaiket That can only happen if the health industry starts using those drugs in their medicines, something that didn’t happen because there’s safer substances that can help you with your animic state.

We could eliminate the criminal gangs who exist due to a criminal drugs trade.

What an amazing idea. Let’s legalize assassination, so we can eliminate the hitman industry once and for all!

We could improve care for addicts.

We could? No, we REALLY SHOULD improve it, because if drugs become legal expect a whole bunch of addicts.

We could stop destroying other peoples countries.

What? :sarcastic

We could guarantee safety standards.

Safer than being illegal? Don’t know how.

We could stop persecuting the drug users who are causing harm to none, or themselves only.

Yeah, let them kill themselves. And let them kill those around them when they drive with drugs, etc.

We could save a fortune.
We could bring into the mainsream economy a massive industry.

Saving money and selling venom. Such a great businessman you are!

Rubbish.

The drugs? Phew, at last you understand.

 

[Yerda]

Maybe you will know when you get your driving license. (Please don’t tell me you already have one )

Am I to assume that you cannot demonstrate it?

Of course, the huge numbers of casualties on the roads every year seem to suggest that driving tests and the rules of the road don't eliminate the dangers. It isn't an argument for banning cars, so it isn't an argument for banning drugs.

I said unique benefits. There’s a lot of medicines that can help you feel better. I hope we aren’t having this discussion because you went to the doctor begging for drugs and he didn’t prescribe them to you

The benefits of euphoriants, dissociatives and halllucinagens seem pretty unique to me.

I presume we're having this discussion because the thread is for that. Our particular exchange seems to be based on our contrary opinions on the matter, and my attempts to establish whether you know anything about drugs, prohibition, and the medical and economic issues involved. I provided a couple of links earlier in the thread and would be happy to provide more sources of info. Have you read anything interesting on the matter?

I ask because the overwhelming majority of the stuff I've encountered seems to suggest that by far the biggest problem with drugs is criminalisation.

Prejudgement? I don’t think so, judgement maybe. On the other hand, I think you may be the one involved personally into this. Too many times the cops have caught you, haven’t they? You little naughty

I happily admit that I like taking drugs. Yet I don't have a criminal record, have never crashed a car (well once, but I was sober and it was a prang), haven't mugged grannies or robbed people's homes, or ever been arrested while high (though I was arrested without charge in my teens while drunk).

Acim and Jaiket That can only happen if the health industry starts using those drugs in their medicines, something that didn’t happen because there’s safer substances that can help you with your animic state.

One of the articles I linked to earlier was a compelling account that heroin is an all-round better treatment for addicts than methadone. Many illegal drugs have derivatives that are infact used medically.

What an amazing idea. Let’s legalize assassination, so we can eliminate the hitman industry once and for all!

We could? No, we REALLY SHOULD improve it, because if drugs become legal expect a whole bunch of addicts.

What? :sarcastic

Safer than being illegal? Don’t know how.

Yeah, let them kill themselves. And let them kill those around them when they drive with drugs, etc.

Saving money and selling venom. Such a great businessman you are!

Do you happen to know anything at all about the war on drugs, the prohibition of alcohol, and the problems caused by criminalisation?

Also please, the personal attacks and patronising are really not neccesary.

 

[Mathematician]

I remember playing volly ball at a club with a group of stoned girls and guys. We couldn't think straight enough to keep score and we keep slaming into each other a loss of coordination. We all had a good laugh about it.

Now I'm a father with two son's. How dangerous would I be to them stoned. How dangerous would I be driving.

Another story, typically I just got a good high and felt great one time I took a panic attack. I start worrying about everything thinking bad things were going to happen I don't know I might have be dangerous to others fortunately none were around.

I guess its just my friends and me. Everybody else is just high no other negative effects.

People drive to work tired or buzzed out of their heads on caffeine. Sleep-deprived individuals are just as dangerous as drunks. None of the illicit substances provide unique dangers.

Your argument is also a poor one because it instinctively equates getting high with driving. Perfectly safe activities like texting are dangerous while driving. Should we ban texting? Of course not. We fault people who are a hazard on the road but maintain a free society.

I suffer from clinical depression and I can say that certain illicit substances are better for my mental well-being than any prescriptions.

 

[otokage007]

Am I to assume that you cannot demonstrate it?

Of course, the huge numbers of casualties on the roads every year seem to suggest that driving tests and the rules of the road don't eliminate the dangers. It isn't an argument for banning cars, so it isn't an argument for banning drugs.

If being followed, rules eliminate danger. Police is there to make you follow them. If you like to break rules isn't something the country can control.

The benefits of euphoriants, dissociatives and halllucinagens seem pretty unique to me.

Not for the profesionals in psychiatry, it seems.

I presume we're having this discussion because the thread is for that. Our particular exchange seems to be based on our contrary opinions on the matter, and my attempts to establish whether you know anything about drugs, prohibition, and the medical and economic issues involved. I provided a couple of links earlier in the thread and would be happy to provide more sources of info. Have you read anything interesting on the matter?

I have read some, and studied the drugs in school for a year, mostly from a biological point of view.

I ask because the overwhelming majority of the stuff I've encountered seems to suggest that by far the biggest problem with drugs is criminalisation.

It could be the biggest problem, yes. However, to legalize them is not the biggest solution.

I happily admit that I like taking drugs. Yet I don't have a criminal record, have never crashed a car (well once, but I was sober and it was a prang), haven't mugged grannies or robbed people's homes, or ever been arrested while high (though I was arrested without charge in my teens while drunk).

Most drugs cause long-term damage, usualy due to their lack of chemical preparation, which is used to palliate the negative effects of the substance and making it more biodegradable. This means that they can affect you in some ways even if you haven't consumed them that day.

One of the articles I linked to earlier was a compelling account that heroin is an all-round better treatment for addicts than methadone. Many illegal drugs have derivatives that are infact used medically.

Then demonstrate that you need them and hope the doctor to prescribe them to you. But drugs aren't a game, so don't expect to buy them like if they were candy.

Also please, the personal attacks and patronising are really not neccesary.

You said I was personaly involved in the topic. I only suggested that maybe it was you the personaly involved. But ok, you started it and now you ask to stop it. That's fine with me.

People drive to work tired or buzzed out of their heads on caffeine. Sleep-deprived individuals are just as dangerous as drunks. None of the illicit substances provide unique dangers.

As I said before. Rules to prevent danger are there, the problem is some people don't like to follow them.

Perfectly safe activities like texting are dangerous while driving. Should we ban texting? Of course not. We fault people who are a hazard on the road but maintain a free society.

Well, texting while driving is a crime in Spain.

I suffer from clinical depression and I can say that certain illicit substances are better for my mental well-being than any prescriptions.

I strongly suggest you to ask your psychiatrist if that statement is true. If it is, I really hope you can obtain those drugs and get better.