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Should 'freedom of speech' be a right?

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
do you think that a country which accepts to be at war deserves that its secrets are preserved? I think it doesn't.
I think that journalism has been the triumph of freedom of speech and I thank God each day for the invention of the press.

there is a right which is more important than the freedom of speech: the right to be informed. and we all have this right.
Fair enough.....
One 'thing' I do love about living in this digital era is how formerly respected institutions, banks, councils, government ministers, senior cops, etc have been caught out and exposed as ruthless, greedy, criminal piggies! :)

Even so, we all have secret info that we want to protect. I have a mass shredding duty every week, mashing up our petty little secrets, which I guess that you would support as our attempt at personal privacy. If you magnify this up to government levels then I guess that there still needs to be some state privacies. Those who do not agree should vote for ministers who will undo all and cause 'open-book' for all the world to see and use.......... ouch! :eek:
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I could, but I feel that it is clear enough.
It doesn't seem to be that clear. The part with the Nazis and WTC (I'm assuming World Trade Center) is what confuses me.

Yes, we really do need to be so wasted, cause I don't trust you to make that judgement, hell I don't even trust me.
So should the rights of WBC be enforced as they impose their hatred upon a group that technically has no right to peace at a funeral (many countries do not allow them protest in such a manner)? Should we allow the TV news to scare the hell out of us over things like SARS, H1N1, Ebola, and space x for the disease they're gonna scare us with? Remember, there is a difference between informing and terrorizing. This also applies to calling for witch hunts on TV. Informing us of another group of people, of another culture is good. It's society taking many steps backwards when we start having people trying to scare others with lies, which we do technically have laws against, though they seem to be rarely enforced.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
For everyone who's suggesting that there be limits, I have a question:

Who have you ever met that is so smart you trust them to decide what you can hear?

I have to say, I've never met anyone that I'd trust to filter the world for me.

I don't think this is a realistic question, or the question we should be asking.

When we talk about establishing limits on speech, we're talking about the construction of a social norm. Social norms are based on generalized cultural consensus, and while they can be encouraged with the formulation of laws to hold people accountable, in the end they are only so much words on paper. To put it simply, they are not binding. Someone else can decide this or that is proper, and others are absolutely free to ignore it. So I think it is somewhat misleading to suggest there is anybody deciding what others can say, much less that we need to identify some "smart" person to trust with this non-existent decision. Further, it is not the nature of social norms to be fixed. They are fluid, malleable, and context-dependent. Again, there's nobody doing the deciding. Social norms get determined by a giant mass of people who self-limit their behaviors in a particular way, and those self-imposed limits can and do change over time and based on context.

Ultimately, the only thing that limits one's speech is oneself, which is why I phrase the relevant question as thus: a
re you or are you not willing to accept the consequences of your speech?
To me, it's not even about other people, or at least not directly. The limits set are your own, not someone else's, though they are informed by the cultural and social norms of your context. It isn't about some nebulous group of others deciding these things.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hi Quintessence,

I think your argument applies only in situations where free speech is protected. Below is a link to an open letter written by a female Pakistani to Ben Affleck. I think she would take exception to your post. The consequences to you for offending someone with your speech are minor compared to the consequences to her if she offended the wrong person.

In her situation, there really are people deciding these things and they have the authority to inflict harsh punishments.

An open letter to Ben Affleck | Pakistan Today
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
It doesn't seem to be that clear. The part with the Nazis and WTC (I'm assuming World Trade Center) is what confuses me.
Sorry, Freudian slip ... I meant WBC.
So should the rights of WBC be enforced as they impose their hatred upon a group that technically has no right to peace at a funeral (many countries do not allow them protest in such a manner)?
Yes, because neither of us can be trusted to limit our policing of groups like the WBC to just them, in time we will find ways to rationalize the restriction of groups whose only crime is disagreeing with us ... guaranteed.
Should we allow the TV news to scare the hell out of us over things like SARS, H1N1, Ebola, and space x for the disease they're gonna scare us with? Remember, there is a difference between informing and terrorizing.
The difference is in your own head and is the result of your own education. I have no fear of SARS, H1N1, or Ebola, or should I say I know what reasonable precautions for avoiding them are. If you are terrorized rather than informed, that because you are either stupid or ignorant and at least ignorant can, as they say, be fixed.
This also applies to calling for witch hunts on TV. Informing us of another group of people, of another culture is good. It's society taking many steps backwards when we start having people trying to scare others with lies, which we do technically have laws against, though they seem to be rarely enforced.
That problem is easily solved ... turn off your TV. I got rid of mine decades ago and I have much more time for other things now, I recommend this approach highly. A little personal discipline and responsibility is a far better thing that issuing police powers.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
do you think that a country which accepts to be at war deserves that its secrets are preserved? I think it doesn't.
I think that journalism has been the triumph of freedom of speech and I thank God each day for the invention of the press.

there is a right which is more important than the freedom of speech: the right to be informed. and we all have this right.

The right to be informed is baked in to the right to free speech! They are inseparable, because the informer must have the right to inform.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
That problem is easily solved ... turn off your TV. I got rid of mine decades ago and I have much more time for other things now, I recommend this approach highly. A little personal discipline and responsibility is a far better thing that issuing police powers.
The problem isn't me, it's the fact that if you control the media you control the masses. Even when the news is spun to be funny, it's troubling that people take it seriously, even what I watch. The rampant partisanship on TV is tearing apart the nation. And the ones who take them seriously are the ones voting.

The difference is in your own head and is the result of your own education. I have no fear of SARS, H1N1, or Ebola, or should I say I know what reasonable precautions for avoiding them are. If you are terrorized rather than informed, that because you are either stupid or ignorant and at least ignorant can, as they say, be fixed.
True, but what of the rampant misinformation that has been spread as "news" by the "news" that people watch?

Yes, because neither of us can be trusted to limit our policing of groups like the WBC to just them, in time we will find ways to rationalize the restriction of groups whose only crime is disagreeing with us ... guaranteed.
But what of those attending the funeral? Why shouldn't they be considered? Many people would consider what the WBC does to be criminal. There protests have been banned in several countries. Why shouldn't those at a funerals and memorial services have a right to peace. Or at least some right to not have to bear such filth during such a difficult time?
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
The problem isn't me, it's the fact that if you control the media you control the masses. Even when the news is spun to be funny, it's troubling that people take it seriously, even what I watch. The rampant partisanship on TV is tearing apart the nation. And the ones who take them seriously are the ones voting.
I take it that you've never read the broadsides that were circulated in the early American republic? They make today's media look positively self controlled.
True, but what of the rampant misinformation that has been spread as "news" by the "news" that people watch?
Like I said, who ya gonna call? Who would you trust? I'd run Bill O'reilly naked out of town mounted backwards on an *** and crown Rachael Maddow Queen of America ... so you can't trust me. Can I trust you? Or Darrell Issa?
But what of those attending the funeral? Why shouldn't they be considered? Many people would consider what the WBC does to be criminal. There protests have been banned in several countries. Why shouldn't those at a funerals and memorial services have a right to peace. Or at least some right to not have to bear such filth during such a difficult time?
It is a problem that does not have a perfect solution, life is full of such things. After you ban the WBC's gatherings, well ... who is next?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I take it that you've never read the broadsides that were circulated in the early American republic? They make today's media look positively self controlled.
They didn't reach as many people though. And, not only did the publications have to reach you, you had to be able to read them. Today you can see Madmen on TV at hospitals, banks, all over the place really, and you don't even have to read to watch them glorify a Congress that won't get along, blame and demonize the other side, insist they are the only correct ones, wallow in their hypocrisy, and do it all for a buck.

Like I said, who ya gonna call? Who would you trust? I'd run Bill O'reilly naked out of town mounted backwards on an *** and crown Rachael Maddow Queen of America ... so you can't trust me. Can I trust you? Or Darrell Issa?
I'd send Bill and Rachael both naked out of town, with them being drug by an *** close enough to it's *** to get crapped on. They are both a part of the problem, and are both a reason why American politics have become so heavily polarized.
It is a problem that does not have a perfect solution, life is full of such things. After you ban the WBC's gatherings, well ... who is next?
The next group to protest funerals, or reaches a new low of depravity. And again, do the people mourning have any sort of rights or privileges to not be harassed?
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Basically- should people be able to say 'whatever' they want to say? What if saying it pushes a person over the edge? What if saying it violates private business policy?

That's the debate: Should free speech be a right?

What do you mean by "private business policy"?

Of course people's private life must be respected; but when it deals with grave actions, people lose the right of privacy.

I live in a country where journalism is highly protected and journalists are allowed to say whatever they want; the right to be informed is so sacred, that journalists are allowed to use rumors to slag off politicians and famous people.
 
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Midnight Rain

Well-Known Member
Basically- should people be able to say 'whatever' they want to say? What if saying it pushes a person over the edge? What if saying it violates private business policy?

That's the debate: Should free speech be a right?
The idea of free speech isn't meant to mean literal speech and inhibited verbal power. It is meant to cover our right to hold opinions as well as questions without any fear that the government could prosecute us. The idea that we have freedom of thought is a better way to say it. I can question and even criticize our government, politicians, policies. I can question religion, organizations and laws. None of those should be illegal. However there are several things that are not protected by our freedom of speech. We cannot threaten someone. That is against the law. We cannot tell lies about individuals to harm their reputation (slander is verbal and libel for the written) and lastly we cannot say things that will waste resources or endanger lives such as yelling "fire" in a crowded public area or calling 911 to report false emergencies.

We don't have the right to "say whatever we want" but we do have the right to our opinions and that is what cannot be prosecuted. This should remain a right because we cannot trust our government with who we are as people. What if the government could prosecute you for being Christian? Or prosecute you for criticizing the president (most of congress would be in prison if that were true). What if racial equality was outlawed and even holding the opinion that people should be equal would be illegal (as it was for a time in Missippi).
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
Basically- should people be able to say 'whatever' they want to say? What if saying it pushes a person over the edge? What if saying it violates private business policy?

That's the debate: Should free speech be a right?

For the most part, human beings are "able" to say whatever they want to say regardless of what others think about it. What I mean is this: Whether or not some particular speech is legally or morally acceptable to others does not necessarily deprive anyone of their ability to say what they want. That is not to say that it is not possible to deprive someone of their ability to speak, because we most certainly can. While it is nearly impossible to prevent a person's first utterance of unacceptable speech, we are certainly capable of preventing further breeches of unacceptable speech by those whose words we find intolerable. But most human beings are physically capable of saying anything they want to say. Most of us seemingly possess the necessary anatomical structure and physical components necessary for uninhibited speech. While this is apparently true, I must acknowledge that there is the possibility that this might not be entirely true, because while most people possess the necessary anatomical components for speech, there are certain things that some people can say that others just can't say, or will not say. It is quite possible, usual, and presumably the case that the reason that some people cannot or will not just say anything is not the result of some physical or chemical process which prevents them from saying it. It is more likely that most people refrain from certain types of speech as a matter or choice, which is usually a reflection of their own personalized set of values, ethics and morals.

But of course, the question was, "should freedom of speech be a right?" Or in other words, should all speech be considered to be morally and socially correct or acceptable? According to the merriam-webster online dictionary, a right is something that a person is or should be morally or legally allowed to have, get, or do. According to this definition, the word "right" not only applies to speech that is moral and legal, but apparently also applies to speech that should be moral and legal. By this definition, if a person, any person believes that all speech should be legal and moral, then it is true that all speech is indeed a right. However, it would also be true that if any person were to believe that all speech should not be considered to be moral and/or legal, than no such right exists. Thus the concept of rights is just that; it is a concept, and in a sense, nothing more than a subjective one at that.

After all, who is it who gets to decide if something "should" be morally acceptable? In a closed system of human beings, whether rational or not, such an idea can only be subjective. There is no one person on this planet who has the moral high ground over all other individuals on the planet to determine what is right for all. Every individual's moral beliefs are subjective and therefore of equal value to the next person.

I should also point out, objectively speaking, that simply because some possibly authoritative body such as an individual, a society, a government, or some other authoritative body endows itself with the ability to grant members of it's society with a right to free speech, it does not, and cannot give anyone a right to free speech that cannot be taken away and denied by someone else. Because rights are subjective by nature, any member of a society could have a different view with regard to an individual's right to free speech. While the government can establish laws which permit free speech, another person might not recognize such laws as just, and easily deny people their perceived right to free speech. Of what value is a right that is capable of being denied? Whether or not an individual truly has a right to free speech is dependent upon whether or not other members of the society agree that that person, and/or every other person has a right to free speech. And in order for all members of a society to fully enjoy such a perceived right, without the possibility of that right being denied by someone else, every member of the society must agree that everyone has the right to free speech. And that is not the case. Thus, there is no objectively existent right to free speech, and there likely never will be in any system of government devised by men. Having rights is not actually about having rights, but rather, having rights is about whether or not individuals or governing bodies have the power and authority to punish those who fail to recognize the rights that have been established by that governing body.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
Freedom of speech does not need to be a right when it is ones demand.


If one is determined to speak their mind and does not care what consequences come from doing so then one has true Freedom of speech. If we rely on governments and courts to grant us the freedom to speak then can we claim we have TRUE freedom of speech??? I don't think so...

right - something that a person is or should be morally or legally allowed to have, get, or do.
Rights - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Indeed, I can claim for myself the right to say what ever I want. That is to say, according to the definition I provided, that I can claim that what ever I say should be morally or legally permitted, that I should be allowed to say what ever I want. However, assuming they have the strength and power to stop me from saying whatever I want, anyone who disagrees with me is capable of stopping me from saying what I want, thereby depriving me of my right. And so, as you say, the question remains. What is the benefit of having rights if we are incapable of enjoying those rights? Of what value is a right that can be so easily denied us by others? Honestly, the definition of rights is quite nonsensical. For according to the definition, whether or not our rights are denied by others, they still remain our rights. According to the definition, a right is not necessarily something that we are permitted to do, but something that we "should" be permitted to do. Thus, we ought not say that we have been denied our rights when we perceive that others have indeed denied us our rights, because in light of the definition I provided, a person cannot deprive us of that which "should" be true. It all seems rather pointless to me. The fact is, before we say and do what we want, we should carefully consider all of the possible consequences for saying and doing what we want. If we should perceive consequences for our saying and doing what we want that we would rather not endure, then we truly ought not say and do what we want.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Basically- should people be able to say 'whatever' they want to say? What if saying it pushes a person over the edge? What if saying it violates private business policy?

That's the debate: Should free speech be a right?
You can't isolate it like that.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redres s of grievances."

Why does the First Amendment lump religion, speech, journalism, and political protest together? Seems a rather haphazard category, no?

Except it's not, not at all. They're all crucial and thus explicitly protected manifestations of freedom of conscience. In the end, that's the only freedom worth a damn, nothing else matters without it.

So, since you didn't leave room for nuance like acceptable restrictions for specific reasons....

Hell YES, it should be a right. It IS a right.
 
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