Should George Will Be Fired?

[HonestJoe]

The idea that someone would let herself be raped just because she was '' too tired'' to do anything about it just doesn't make sense to me. Particularly when there is no mention of any actual attempt to prevent it.

It's a third hand partial quote filtered through two journalists with (albeit different) ulterior motives. I don't think you can come to any legitimate judgement without knowing what she actually said rather than what was reported.

 

[Koldo]

It's a third hand partial quote filtered through two journalists with (albeit different) ulterior motives. I don't think you can come to any legitimate judgement without knowing what she actually said rather than what was reported.

Indeed. Do you have access to a better source?

 

[kashmir]

Perhaps the only solution to address the risks of differing standards
of sexual consent is government regulation. This isn't a new idea.
Verbal or Written Permission Could be Required For College Sex | The Informer | Los Angeles | Los Angeles News and Events | LA Weekly
Perhaps a written contract establishing things like time, place,
safe words, prophylactics, liability, etc would be useful, eh?

That's a good idea but I am too tired to read the link.
Been up for over 30 hrs, insomnia.

Doesn't a contract have to be notarized?
So what if they dont sign one and find it silly?
Can either then claim rape later on?

I see all sorts of issues there, but it may cut down on unwanted preggies and STD's
Odd that is actually being talked about, its almost like my thread about having a licence to have sex.
Is this the actual future coming?

Not to be a know it all here, but man, I see things way outside the box and it comes back to haunt me in such odd ways.
Like I have some sixth sense thing.

again, Been up for over 30 hrs, insomnia.... :faint:

 

[kashmir]

Actually, out of fear someone could act like that.

Nothing in the quote suggests fear.
Someone that fears the other person, wouldn't put themselves in that position, she would have at least kept her clothes on if she fear him and wouldn't even got into bed with him anyway, he was sleeping, she would have went to the couch.

She had no prob breaking up with him, and saying she didn't want to have sex, that is not a sign of fear, that is a sign of controlling and doing what one wants.

About that paper to consent to sex, read most of the link, man that is way out there.
They are deeming this a rape standard.
She wouldnt even had to say no, she never said yes, is the idea behind rape.

So, if they are kissing and all that, if she doesn't say "I want to have sex" it is rape, no matter what. that is what they are saying.

It is the responsibility of the person who wants to engage in initiating the sexual activity to ensure that he or she has the consent of the other person to engage in the sexual activity. Lack of protest or resistance does not mean consent, nor does silence mean consent.

here we have it folks, seduction is now rape.
Seems to me that wish to give females complete control to deem sex as rape.
So guys that break up with girls now for someone else, or do something to make her mad, you are risking going to jail for rape.

Better make sure you have video recording of her giving full consent.
No matter what happens, if she does not verbally say yes, it is rape.
This is nuts.

I forsee many innocent guys going to prison in the future, some females are some very nasty people when they want to be, a guy breaks up with her.
You will be going to jail for rape, if she is that kind of person.

 

[Koldo]

Nothing in the quote suggests fear.

I agree.

Someone that fears the other person, wouldn't put themselves in that position, she would have at least kept her clothes on if she fear him and wouldn't even got into bed with him anyway, he was sleeping, she would have went to the couch.

She had no prob breaking up with him, and saying she didn't want to have sex, that is not a sign of fear, that is a sign of controlling and doing what one wants.

We could argue about certain hypotheticals, but I don't really see the point.

About that paper to consent to sex, read most of the link, man that is way out there.
They are deeming this a rape standard.
She wouldnt even had to say no, she never said yes, is the idea behind rape.

So, if they are kissing and all that, if she doesn't say "I want to have sex" it is rape, no matter what. that is what they are saying.

here we have it folks, seduction is now rape.
Seems to me that wish to give females complete control to deem sex as rape.
So guys that break up with girls now for someone else, or do something to make her mad, you are risking going to jail for rape.

Better make sure you have video recording of her giving full consent.
No matter what happens, if she does not verbally say yes, it is rape.
This is nuts.

It seems like people want to solve some problems by creating other problems...

 

[Revoltingest]

That's a good idea but I am too tired to read the link.
Been up for over 30 hrs, insomnia.

Bummer!

Doesn't a contract have to be notarized?

No. Legally, all that's required for a contract is an offer, consideration, binding (& legal)
intent, & acceptance. Witnesses & notarization are just for things more likely to be disputed
or to record with the government.

Consideration: Exchanging something of value.
Acceptance: Assent to a written agreement may be spoken or written, but written is best.
The parties: Must be legally competent.
The contract: It may be entirely spoken, but that's the main problem here, ie, a lack of the
meeting of the minds regarding consent.)

So what if they dont sign one and find it silly?
Can either then claim rape later on?

Aye.

I see all sorts of issues there, but it may cut down on unwanted preggies and STD's
Odd that is actually being talked about, its almost like my thread about having a licence to have sex.
Is this the actual future coming?

I expect that this or some equivalent will become more common.

Not to be a know it all here, but man, I see things way outside the box and it comes back to haunt me in such odd ways.
Like I have some sixth sense thing.
again, Been up for over 30 hrs, insomnia.... :faint:

May blissful sleep descend upon thee.

 

[freethinker44]

While on pretty much all situations I would agree with you, there are some odd cases out there such as:

“They’d now decided — mutually, she thought — just to be friends. When he ended up falling asleep on her bed, she changed into pajamas and climbed in next to him. Soon, he was putting his arm around her and taking off her clothes. ‘I basically said, “No, I don’t want to have sex with you.” And then he said, “OK, that’s fine” and stopped. . . . And then he started again a few minutes later, taking off my panties, taking off his boxers. I just kind of laid there and didn’t do anything — I had already said no. I was just tired and wanted to go to bed. I let him finish. I pulled my panties back on and went to sleep.’”

This is a specific case that George Will mentioned.

I don't know what to make of that.
The idea that someone would let herself be raped just because she was '' too tired'' to do anything about it just doesn't make sense to me. Particularly when there is no mention of any actual attempt to prevent it.

If that's rape then I get raped all the time.

 

[HonestJoe]

Indeed. Do you have access to a better source?

No, I doubt a better source exists (at least not publicly available). That's why we can't come to any legitimate judgement.

 

[Koldo]

No, I doubt a better source exists (at least not publicly available). That's why we can't come to any legitimate judgement.

And what judgment did I make?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Anyone who spends time arguing in front of a judge will see complexities arise.
Can a "no" ever change to a "yes"? Was there ambiguity? Was anyone's volition
compromised due to intoxication or sleepiness? But if a simple slogan like
"No means no" is the law, then was the poster's wife guilty of rape, even though
he acquiesced? Should she consequently spend a couple decades in the slammer?

I'm not suggesting anything in particular here, but I was clear in that if we were to simplify the boundaries, then "no" actually means "no."

Of course a "no" can change to a "yes", but it must be without coercion or intimidation.

I am quite across the board when it comes to informed consent, as I think that along with a sense of humor, wit, intelligence, and compassion, are together much sexier than six-pack abs on a guy or nice hips on a lady.

What we are seeing is a change of perspective on what seduction is supposed to look like, as it is recognizing now the importance of bodily autonomy in sexual ethics. And judging by some of the comments in this thread, I think that informed consent in sex education is still very much needed.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not suggesting anything in particular here, but I was clear in that if we were to simplify the boundaries, then "no" actually means "no."
Of course a "no" can change to a "yes", but it must be without coercion or intimidation.
I am quite across the board when it comes to informed consent, as I think that along with a sense of humor, wit, intelligence, and compassion, are together much sexier than six-pack abs on a guy or nice hips on a lady.
What we are seeing is a change of perspective on what seduction is supposed to look like, as it is recognizing now the importance of bodily autonomy in sexual ethics. And judging by some of the comments in this thread, I think that informed consent in sex education is still very much needed.

When I had 6-pack abs, I had no wit.
Now that I have wit, I have 0-pack abs.
I am a perfect storm of inadequacy.

A problem is that rape is too often a he-said she-said matter, lacking evidence strong enuf to overcome reasonable doubt by a jury. And between inept or incompetent prosecutors, & juries comprising over-emotional irrational ignorant dunderheads, evidence takes a back seat to politics & public whim. This can result in victimizing either the accused, the accuser or even both. (We have the Duke lacrosse player debacle to show that relying solely on belief in the accusation is inadequate for prosecution or conviction.) Use of written sexual relations contracts ("sextracts"?) might not be such an outrageous idea, since it would boost awareness of the issues, cut down on false accusations, & help avoid rapes.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

When I had 6-pack abs, I had no wit.
Now that I have wit, I have 0-pack abs.
I am a perfect storm of inadequacy.

A problem is that rape is too often a he-said she-said matter, lacking evidence strong enuf to overcome reasonable doubt by a jury. And between inept or incompetent prosecutors, & juries comprising over-emotional irrational ignorant dunderheads, evidence takes a back seat to politics & public whim. This can result in victimizing either the accused, the accuser or even both. (We have the Duke lacrosse player debacle to show that relying solely on belief in the accusation is inadequate for prosecution or conviction.) Use of written sexual relations contracts ("sextracts"?) might not be such an outrageous idea, since it would boost awareness of the issues, cut down on false accusations, & help avoid rapes.

I agree with all this except one minor quibble:

False rape accusations by and large occur no more than false accusations for other felonies such as grand theft and assault/battery (typically between 2-8%). Not saying to ignore it, but it isn't as important as creating an environment where male and female victims of rape and sexual assault can come forward to tell their stories, and to take measures to ensure it doesn't happen again.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree with all this except one minor quibble:

False rape accusations by and large occur no more than false accusations for other felonies such as grand theft and assault/battery (typically between 2-8%). Not saying to ignore it, but it isn't as important as creating an environment where male and female victims of rape and sexual assault can come forward to tell their stories, and to take measures to ensure it doesn't happen again.

That isn't a quibble, since what you say comports entirely with my post.

 

[HonestJoe]

And what judgment did I make?

I never suggested you did but your assessment of the details could easily lead to one.

I certainly think it was the thinly veiled intention of Will in the original article to encourage his readers to the judgement that the woman in question was not raped and that her reported lack of physical resistance implied consent. I'm sure was one of the reasons some people so strongly objected to it.

 

[Revoltingest]

I never suggested you did but your assessment of the details could easily lead to one.

I certainly think it was the thinly veiled intention of Will in the original article to encourage his readers to the judgement that the woman in question was not raped and that her reported lack of physical resistance implied consent. I'm sure was one of the reasons some people so strongly objected to it.

Certainly, there is reasonable doubt about whether this constituted rape or not. The issue is whether schools & government are seeing/causing the pendulum swing from dismissal of the victims (male & female) to quick & automated gender-based (male only) judgement against the accused. Neither extreme serves justice.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

How many cases have come to judgement against the accused? Not social opinion, mind you, but legal action where men are finding themselves going to prison this much? I haven't seen the numbers supporting that argument.

 

[Koldo]

I never suggested you did but your assessment of the details could easily lead to one.

*yawn*

I certainly think it was the thinly veiled intention of Will in the original article to encourage his readers to the judgement that the woman in question was not raped and that her reported lack of physical resistance implied consent.

If he didn't falsely portray the case, did he do anything wrong?
Using examples is a common tactic...everywhere.

I'm sure was one of the reasons some people so strongly objected to it.

People are going to object to whatever for whatever reason. That's nothing new.

 

[Revoltingest]

How many cases have come to judgement against the accused? Not social opinion, mind you, but legal action where men are finding themselves going to prison this much? I haven't seen the numbers supporting that argument.

I don't know. But I regularly see cases in the news where accusations are made, both parties appear to suffer greatly, & the only evidence for/against rape is testimony of the 2 parties. A trial can easily let a victim's attacker go free, or imprison an innocent guy. This points to a problem which won't be solved in the courts. Written contracts, absurd as they sound, might actually be a good idea. Of course, educating kids about how to best handle such situations is an even better idea.
(By "kids", I'm thinking 12-25 year olds would be targeted.)

 

[Koldo]

How many cases have come to judgement against the accused? Not social opinion, mind you, but legal action where men are finding themselves going to prison this much? I haven't seen the numbers supporting that argument.

I am not sure I comprehend your question. Could you rephrase it?

Like as in how many of the reported cases lead to a prison sentence?

 

[HonestJoe]

*yawn*

I'll take that; as close to concession as we'll get.

If he didn't falsely portray the case, did he do anything wrong?

He doesn't know if he falsely portrayed the case. He selected a set of information he got from a third party and presented it in a manner to support his point regardless of whether the reality of that case actually did so. For that set of information to support his case though, it implies the woman in question must either be lying or stupid.

The irony is that there are likely to be much clearer examples of the problem he was referring to but he didn't bother using them. I suspect that was because he wanted the reaction, that being the point of the article (and, it's been suggested, his others). Frankly it's the insult to journalism that bothers me as much as anything else.