Should Germany censor anti-migrant hate speech in light of Cologne provocative sexual assaults?

[icehorse]

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name. - Confucius

It seems to me that over the 1400 years of Islamic history, Muslims have frequently (not always, frequently), interpreted Islam to mean that infidel women can be abused and enslaved at will, and many Muslims have acted on this interpretation. As it turns out, this interpretation is easy to defend.

Of course, this is a very delicate topic. But it should be very clear that if we're not allowed to discuss such beliefs and behaviors, and expose them to sunlight, things will only get worse. We have to defend every last inch of the freedom of expression our forefathers fought to give us.

 

[Jumi]

How could they do this to the people who took them in? I guess war, fear and hunger have their effects of people after all

Many of them were criminals or bad guys already in their country of origin. Though traumas of war can change people for worse.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Also, these dirtbags are a small minority, & don't represent all refugees.

Am I unfair to bags of dirt?
If so, I apologize to them.

Yes, the ingrates I pointed at were the specific culprit scumbags, not all refugees of course. They are a small minority that can't represent any any group nor speak for them.

It seems to me that over the 1400 years of Islamic history, Muslims have frequently (not always, frequently), interpreted Islam to mean that infidel women can be abused and enslaved at will, and many Muslims have acted on this interpretation. As it turns out, this interpretation is easy to defend.

Of course, this is a very delicate topic. But it should be very clear that if we're not allowed to discuss such beliefs and behaviors, and expose them to sunlight, things will only get worse. We have to defend every last inch of the freedom of expression our forefathers fought to give us.

Syria, the source of the refugees, has Christians too (about 13% of the population) and they would probably think of migrating more because of I S I S's late specific abuse of Christians. It is a common mistake to only think of Muslims when it is about the refugees.

 

[icehorse]

Hey Smart_Guy,

Agreed. At the same time, we need to be able to discuss significant factors in such situations. My take is that there are many factors, and common interpretations of Islam is one of them.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, the ingrates I pointed at were the specific culprit scumbags, not all refugees of course. They are a small minority that can't represent any any group nor speak for them.

Of course, I always expect you to be fair towards people.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hey Smart_Guy,

Agreed. At the same time, we need to be able to discuss significant factors in such situations. My take is that there are many factors, and common interpretations of Islam is one of them.

True, but remember, these factors include the high rate of being uneducated, to make a solid rule and consider it a significant factor related to specific teachings like Islam. There is a high percentage of uneducated refugees. They probably just know what their normal daily living needs of Islam and that factor is not that highly expected to be a significant one since where they lived it was not an active one.

By the way, you can also use the tag feature instead of quoting. It does notify the tagged member even if they unwatched/unsubscribed the thread, which stops notifications of normal new posts. It's easy, just type the @ sigh, then follow it directly with the member's name. It will give a drop down list of the possible members' names if the first letter(s) is(are) correct. Leave the space it gives after the name is tagged for it to work. Examples: @icehorse .

Cheers

Of course, I always expect you to be fair towards people.

Yup, I gotta be fair, just like in my avatar.

 

[icehorse]

Hey Smart_Guy,

For the sake of discussion, let's say they are largely uneducated. Isn't it still the case that they grew up in Islamic cultures? Aren't the cultures and the religious teachings intertwined?

 

[Smart_Guy]

I didn't completely disagree with you, Icehorse, by the way. Your earlier assumption is in place, but I don't think it is a significant factor unless those attacks were planned for by organized factions with motives prior to the attacks (maybe I S I S implanted some of their own with the refugees?).

Even I, a very well educated (I'm not bragging here) Muslim Saudi national living all my life in the center of the Muslim world Makkah, never been taught about the subject topic the assumption is based on, not to mention that enslavement in Islam takes place under strict specific cases. Just taking a non Muslim woman claiming her a slave does not work.

As for the education and having culture and religion intertwine, that's a correct thought. However, when this specific relationship forms, it forms based on what the culture needs to live, based on the religion it wants to adopt. Religious teachings related to, for example, marriage and food consumption, I believe are used and taken as significant factors. If we take slavery, we know that it is now not allowed under civil international treaties by the officials (Islam considers that seriously and there are verses in the Quran for it) so it became a disconnected religious act to be even taught of. Like I said, even I did not get any of that in my culture which is considered one of the most strict Islamic.

 

[icehorse]

Hey Smart_Guy,

So this is interesting to me... on the one hand you mention that we need to keep in mind that education is weak in this group. But now you're saying that "enslavement in Islam takes place under strict specific cases". The second claim implies deep knowledge. So which is it for these guys - ignorance or knowledge?

(And to be clear, "ignorance" is not a slam. We are all ignorant on some topics, "ignorance" just means "never educated on a topic". So, for example, I'm ignorant about particle physics.)

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hmm... I'm trying to find out how it implies deep knowledge in it. If it does, anyways, it would mean to me in that context, not to them. But it does not to me in the first place really. I did some reading of that point to make that post and I got the implication that it is strict so I said it.

 

[icehorse]

So you said that the idea of slavery is complex. I'm happy to grant you that in Islam, dealing with slavery is a complex issue. So on the one hand the immigrants are uneducated, but on the other, they understand the complexities of how Islam treats the question of slavery.

In other words, you seem to be describing uneducated Islamic scholars

 

[Smart_Guy]

I'm confused. I don't remember saying immigrants know anything about slavery. I compared myself to them to show how they are far from it for me being far from it already.

Wait, don't tell me you're just teasing me

 

[icehorse]

I didn't completely disagree with you, Icehorse, by the way. Your earlier assumption is in place, but I don't think it is a significant factor unless those attacks were planned for by organized factions with motives prior to the attacks (maybe I S I S implanted some of their own with the refugees?).

Even I, a very well educated (I'm not bragging here) Muslim Saudi national living all my life in the center of the Muslim world Makkah, never been taught about the subject topic the assumption is based on, not to mention that enslavement in Islam takes place under strict specific cases. Just taking a non Muslim woman claiming her a slave does not work.

As for the education and having culture and religion intertwine, that's a correct thought. However, when this specific relationship forms, it forms based on what the culture needs to live, based on the religion it wants to adopt. Religious teachings related to, for example, marriage and food consumption, I believe are used and taken as significant factors. If we take slavery, we know that it is now not allowed under civil international treaties by the officials (Islam considers that seriously and there are verses in the Quran for it) so it became a disconnected religious act to be even taught of. Like I said, even I did not get any of that in my culture which is considered one of the most strict Islamic.

Hey Smart_Guy,

I might be teasing a bit, but I appreciate our discussion.

In this - slightly earlier - post, you introduced the complexities of understanding how to apply Islamic teachings to various contexts. And I'm happy to grant you that such complexities exist. But how can we expect the uneducated to be able to deal with these complexities?

In other words, if one needs to be a scholar to be a good Muslim, then that's a real problem wouldn't you say?

 

[Smart_Guy]

Yup, it is

Tho no need to be a scholar to be a good Muslim. Scholar means having vast knowledge about the details of something while good simply means not doing bad.

 

[tjgillies]

I'm all for censorship of any content as long as there is a sane process in which it is done.

 

[icehorse]

I've never met or heard of anyone I'd trust to tell me what I can't hear.

 

[gsa]

Scholar means having vast knowledge about the details of something while good simply means not doing bad.

Not doing bad, according, presumably, to the instructions set by the scholars yes?

You can see why the rest of us would consider that a problem.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Not doing bad, according, presumably, to the instructions set by the scholars yes?

You can see why the rest of us would consider that a problem.

Nope, Islam instructs to refer to the scholars when we seek guidance, not that scholars instructions are what decide good and bad. Scholars tell to not shave beards, for example, yet many Muslims do and they are considered good Muslims. Besides, just in case you don't know, most scholars give advice and usually end it with "and God knows better" which means they admit they only did their best and they could be wrong or inaccurate.

Not knowing Islam well is what could make people consider many things in it a problem really.

But I see your point. It does happen that way sometimes tho it is based on the the choice of who hears from the scholars. Like some specific Islamic movement you probably know of.

How did a censorship thread in a political debate section turn into a religious debate about Islam? Gee @icehorse , thanks

 

[icehorse]

just doing my part

 

[Sunstone]

How are the German voters to make wise choices if the Government is unnecessarily restricting their access to information?