Should God (OT) be feared?

[rusra02]

I don't see it that way. After God rescued the Israelites from Egypt he made a covenant or solemn agreement with them. Exodus 24:7 reports; "Then he [Moses] took the book of the covenant and read it aloud to the people. And they said: “All that Jehovah has spoken we are willing to do, and we will be obedient.”"
Jehovah informed them of the consequences for violating this covenant, and the blessings for keeping it. This is no different in principle than a modern contract, IMO, that has penalties for failing to fulfill the contract's terms. Of course, a covenant with the Creator of all things is far more serious and important than contracts with mere men, with far greater benefits and consequences than any man-made contract.

 

[David T]

All across the bible, God and his messengers use fear and threats to force Gods ways on unbelieving people.
It was even so that God threatened Moses himself that if people will follow God's words they will not be harmed as God harmed Egypt.

This clearly suggests that the people of that time, who invented God, were "forced" to use scare tactics in order to "win" peoples minds.

How is it that all modern religions today, fail and "neglect" this fact with the excuse that this was not what God intended or that it is all just a God's metaphor to make a point?

So you are agreeing Ken ham understAnds the bible at all and that's how you understAnd the bible as well?

 

[Segev Moran]

Really? I thought you where talking about the Abrahamic God in general so I think that supports my position.

I'm a bit confused.
Isn't the Abrahamic god the Bible's god?

 

[Segev Moran]

I just think it's sad and heartbreaking that the Old Testament may be invented and used to scare people and that so many people read it and follow such madness and use it to judge and condemn and put fear into others.

This might seem sad to you today, because we know better. I guess at the time, where violence and human life had no value, it was a great way of delivering a message...
I don't think anyone can argue against its efficiency, you know

I find it heartbreaking that God won't reveal himself to unbelievers, hides himself, remains silent, refuses to guide people, and that he has left us with such a book that deceives and divides people and contradicts itself. It disgusts me!

I Think that God actually is also hidden, silent, non-guiding towards people of faith also. hmmm, kind of raises some questions, no?

Regarding the God I experience, I usually experience his love through Mother Mary.

What do you mean?

I experience a gentle, tender, meek, forgiving, and humble God

How so?
Can you give examples?

, nothing like the God I read about in the OT.

So i guess you are not a Jew, Christian or Muslim ?

I'm not sure if every Religion based off of those books is made up by humans.

Only fools are absolutely 100% sure of anything.

I just don't know, but I've had too many experiences

Do tell, if you don't mind.
I Had my share of experiences also. Kind of weird I don't explain them as spiritual, while others might.

visions

Wow. I'm kind of curious

and strange coincidences involving a power greater than myself to ever be an Atheist.

What do you mean by "strange"?
I had a lot of coincident.
If you look at it with unbiased eyes, there are many strange coincidences everywhere.
It seems odd to me that somehow they are always treated as divine when they happen to be good.

 

[Segev Moran]

To begin, God proposed the Ten Commandants.

They are not called commandments for nothing. They are nothing proposed. They are demands upon which you are facing a violent and aggressive punishment.
[/QUOTE]
Then, he commanded his chosen people to do this and that as indicated by OT stories.
[/QUOTE]
Indeed. and killed those who didn't want to listen.

Assuming God doesn't demand obedience, how would it be?

He should earn his obedience by earning humans respect? for example...
I am pretty sure that if God was assisting people instead of rewarding them, it would have been a much successful in convincing people that it is worth while to believe in it.

Many separate gods, many independent creatures, or many opportunities to be like Satan?

What do you mean?
What does Satan got to do with it?

 

[Segev Moran]

At issue is not our conclusions but your arrogant presumptions.

How is asking such a question is being arrogant?
I Find it more arrogant claiming that only selected few "deserve" God.
I Can't quite understand your anger.

So would you say God tried all he could before coming to the conclusion that violence is needed to "guide" humans?

 

[Segev Moran]

At issue is not our conclusions but your arrogant presumptions.

Also, Btw... this entire thread started due my little son asking me why god needs to hurt people in order to deliver a message.
Would you assume my answer should be "That's an arrogant question, son" ?

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

I'm a bit confused.
Isn't the Abrahamic god the Bible's god?

The Abrahamic god refers to the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim god as well as debatebly the Baha'i, Sikh, and Gnostic god.

 

[Repox]

They are not called commandments for nothing. They are nothing proposed. They are demands upon which you are facing a violent and aggressive punishment.

Then, he commanded his chosen people to do this and that as indicated by OT stories.
[/QUOTE]
Indeed. and killed those who didn't want to listen.

He should earn his obedience by earning humans respect? for example...
I am pretty sure that if God was assisting people instead of rewarding them, it would have been a much successful in convincing people that it is worth while to believe in it.

What do you mean?
What does Satan got to do with it?[/QUOTE]
You can believe that if you want. I don't believe humans can change God, or convince him to obey their wills. Let's forget it, there is to much of a lack of understanding. If you think Satan has nothing to do with religion, or anything to do with the fate of humankind, we have nothing to discuss.

 

[Segev Moran]

Really? I thought you where talking about the Abrahamic God in general so I think that supports my position.

I would like to apologize if I miss=used the word bible.
When i say bible, I mean (apparently wrongfully ) the OT bible.

 

[Segev Moran]

Then, he commanded his chosen people to do this and that as indicated by OT stories.

Indeed. and killed those who didn't want to listen.

He should earn his obedience by earning humans respect? for example...
I am pretty sure that if God was assisting people instead of rewarding them, it would have been a much successful in convincing people that it is worth while to believe in it.

What do you mean?
What does Satan got to do with it?[/QUOTE]
You can believe that if you want. I don't believe humans can change God, or convince him to obey their wills. Let's forget it, there is to much of a lack of understanding. If you think Satan has nothing to do with religion, or anything to do with the fate of humankind, we have nothing to discuss.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say Satan has got nothing to do with religion. I said Satan has got nothing to do with the question if one should fear God or not.

 

[Thief]

All across the bible, God and his messengers use fear and threats to force Gods ways on unbelieving people.
It was even so that God threatened Moses himself that if people will follow God's words they will not be harmed as God harmed Egypt.

This clearly suggests that the people of that time, who invented God, were "forced" to use scare tactics in order to "win" peoples minds.

How is it that all modern religions today, fail and "neglect" this fact with the excuse that this was not what God intended or that it is all just a God's metaphor to make a point?

so when the moment arrives....and you get to face God.....to His Face.....
you will stand fearless?

face to Face with Someone who might squash you like a bug

(we do such things to insects)

 

[arthra]

All across the bible, God and his messengers use fear and threats to force Gods ways on unbelieving people. It was even so that God threatened Moses himself that if people will follow God's words they will not be harmed as God harmed Egypt. This clearly suggests that the people of that time, who invented God, were "forced" to use scare tactics in order to "win" peoples minds.
How is it that all modern religions today, fail and "neglect" this fact with the excuse that this was not what God intended or that it is all just a God's metaphor to make a point?

You recall that when the children of Israel were in Egypt they were enslaved and the midwives were instructed by Pharoah to end the lives of the male infants... so maybe the plaques of Egypt were not undeserved.

It also maybe that "modern religions" today have scholars that explain "fear" of God means being in awe of God and His majesty.

The Hebrew words יִרְאַ֣ת (yir’aṯ) and יִרְאַ֣ת (p̄aḥaḏ) are most commonly used to describe fear of God/El/Yahweh.

Bahya ibn Paquda characterized two types of fear as a lower "fear of punishment" and a higher "fear of [divine awe] glory."


also:

Proverbs 9:10 says that "fear of the Lord" is "the beginning of wisdom".

Fear of God - Wikipedia

 

[Repox]

Indeed. and killed those who didn't want to listen.

He should earn his obedience by earning humans respect? for example...
I am pretty sure that if God was assisting people instead of rewarding them, it would have been a much successful in convincing people that it is worth while to believe in it.

What do you mean?
What does Satan got to do with it?

You can believe that if you want. I don't believe humans can change God, or convince him to obey their wills. Let's forget it, there is to much of a lack of understanding. If you think Satan has nothing to do with religion, or anything to do with the fate of humankind, we have nothing to discuss.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say Satan has got nothing to do with religion. I said Satan has got nothing to do with the question if one should fear God or not.[/QUOTE]
I think you should take it up with God. I have no influence over him. I don't believe anyone has ever or will ever tell God how to be God. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Repox]

Indeed. and killed those who didn't want to listen.

He should earn his obedience by earning humans respect? for example...
I am pretty sure that if God was assisting people instead of rewarding them, it would have been a much successful in convincing people that it is worth while to believe in it.

What do you mean?
What does Satan got to do with it?

You can believe that if you want. I don't believe humans can change God, or convince him to obey their wills. Let's forget it, there is to much of a lack of understanding. If you think Satan has nothing to do with religion, or anything to do with the fate of humankind, we have nothing to discuss.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say Satan has got nothing to do with religion. I said Satan has got nothing to do with the question if one should fear God or not.[/QUOTE]
I guess it is for others. I have never feared God.

 

[Segev Moran]

so when the moment arrives....and you get to face God.....to His Face.....
you will stand fearless?

face to Face with Someone who might squash you like a bug

(we do such things to insects)

So God treats us as we treat bugs?
If that will be the case, I will probably be as scared as a cockroach trying to fear the upcoming of a shoe.

 

[Segev Moran]

You recall that when the children of Israel were in Egypt they were enslaved and the midwives were instructed by Pharoah to end the lives of the male infants... so maybe the plaques of Egypt were not undeserved.

If God could prevent it all from happening then, yes.. I think the right treatment was not to kill all the infants in return (or all Egyptians of that time for that matter)
Would you say that according to God's logic, Germany (to its full citizens) should have suffered the same judgement? I REALLY REALLY hope not.

It also maybe that "modern religions" today have scholars that explain "fear" of God means being in awe of God and His majesty.

Yes, of course... today.
I Don't believe it was so for the past 2800 years or so.

The Hebrew words יִרְאַ֣ת (yir’aṯ) and יִרְאַ֣ת (p̄aḥaḏ) are most commonly used to describe fear of God/El/Yahweh.

Yet in the OT it shows many many times in direct context to actual fear, or worry regarding an action or event.
For example from Genesis:

הצילני נא מיד אחי מיד עשו, כי ירא אנכי אִתּוֹ פן יבוא והכני אם על בנים

Literal translation:

Please save me from my brother Esav, because i fear he will beat me

Bahya ibn Paquda characterized two types of fear as a lower "fear of punishment" and a higher "fear of [divine awe] glory."

What is a fear of glory?
Why would one fear glory? unless he doesn't understand it as glory, rather as something very dangerous that might, well... kill him.

also:
Proverbs 9:10 says that "fear of the Lord" is "the beginning of wisdom".

Which is reasonable to say, if that God might be a tool used to control people with fear.

Fear, is the easiest way of getting someone to follow you. (Not the most "effective" though)

I believe Christianity was a way of "toning down" the "fear factor" of the OT God.
That is the thing that is "un-effective" in fear. people try and find a way out. when they do, other frightened people will quickly follow.

 

[Thief]

So God treats us as we treat bugs?
If that will be the case, I will probably be as scared as a cockroach trying to fear the upcoming of a shoe.

yep....

it might seem a bit of a stretch.....thinking judgment could be that swift

but I believe the peace of heaven is guarded
not all are allowed to enter

if we judge by sight...we are judged on sight
if we judge by rumor... we are judged by hearsay

if we judge at all....we should make certain our own mind and heart ...first

 

[arthra]

If God could prevent it all from happening then, yes.. I think the right treatment was not to kill all the infants in return (or all Egyptians of that time for that matter)
Would you say that according to God's logic, Germany (to its full citizens) should have suffered the same judgement? I REALLY REALLY hope not.

You would like it if God "could prevent it". Why can't we be empowered to serve the Divine teachings by preventing it ourselves. God didn't create us to be automatons but to serve Him with our heart and soul.

 

[Segev Moran]

yep....

it might seem a bit of a stretch.....thinking judgment could be that swift

but I believe the peace of heaven is guarded
not all are allowed to enter

if we judge by sight...we are judged on sight
if we judge by rumor... we are judged by hearsay

if we judge at all....we should make certain our own mind and heart ...first

So your literally fear god?