I mean they are afterall written 200 years after muhammad's death. And arguments have been made that quran alone was the reason for golden age era. Since there are no silly traditions and restrictions in the quran. And believe that hadiths are more man made speculations. Atleast quran is somewhat older with the oldest being 715 AD i think. Although there are disagreements if it was preserved well. Atleast it has a more dominant theological being than the hadiths have.
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Should hadiths be rejected?
- Thread starter Faih
- Start date
leibowde84
Veteran Member
I've often wondered about this. From what I've learned, the Hadiths have cause a great deal of violence, death, destruction and divisiveness in the Muslim world. Considering the fact that Muhammad's stated purpose was to unite the world under one faith, I find it hard to believe that he would have supported such divisive documents.
Hadith, in spite of what the vast majority of Muslim Theologians might say about transmission and chain of narration cannot always be trusted. The numerous contradictory hadith (Shia-Sunni for example) is testimony to this. Clearly the hadith very often exist to satisfy a specific narrative and general serves a particular point of view. Let us consider the event of the "Prophets final Sermon", we are told that this was one of the most widely witnessed events of the time. Strangely though there appears to be three different versions of this event, the sunni version, the ****e version and the ahle Quran version. Ever tried sitting in a circle and whispering a message to the person sitting next to you and asking them to pass the message on until it comes back to you. Try this experiment and don't be surprised that the message that you transmitted and the one that you sent would be different. I've heard people refer to it as "Chinese Whispers".
The problem is with the Sunni Hadith...
Shiites did not ban the writing of the Hadith...
and despite this...We treat each hadith independently..i.e. we don't claim that there are Sahih (authentic) Hadith books that should be treated like the Quran.
Shiites did not ban the writing of the Hadith...
and despite this...We treat each hadith independently..i.e. we don't claim that there are Sahih (authentic) Hadith books that should be treated like the Quran.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
Do you deny that the Hadith's cause division in Islam? Isn't that exactly the opposite of what Muhammad wanted? If so, why not just get rid of them?
Some times treating others with the same generosity you extend to yourself can go a long way to reconstructing broken bridges. I thought I just mention that as an aside. However, without discussing the merits and demerits of Sunni and Shia Islam, the fundamental common denominator is that they are both deeply political in nature. And you know what they say about politicians, need I say more. The truth, I have learnt, especially when it comes to matters of religion and politics is a very relative concept. For me the reality is that at some point after the death of the prophet there was a power struggle that ensued and the various supporters of the different power blocks began spreading propaganda and information that promoted there cause. This seems perfectly natural and we can even witness this dynamic in action in the modern world. There is no reason to believe that people 1400 years ago were any different. I have been told that before the advent of Islam Arab tribes would go to war with each other over the most trivial issues and they would often remain hostile for many years. This practice was said to have been eliminated by the message of Islam. The evidence I must point is suggestive of the opposite. I give you the Sunni-****e conflict which has been going on for centuries. I think some responsible leadership and intellectual maturity from all parties is desperately needed in the Arab world. Muslims in the middle east need to promote a pluralistic environment where all ideas can coexist and people can simply agree to disagree.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
The downside of this argument is that there is a huge chunk of the Muslim world that sees absolutely no problem with using hadiths to compliment understanding of the Qur'an.
You might also keep in mind that any person can reject the thinking of any given scholar, though to be fair, rejecting a highly regarded scholar isn't a terribly wise thing to do in a Muslim society governed by such social and theological mores.. In non-Muslim majority counties one can pretty well do whatever one pleases as far as Islam is concerned.
Yeah after all humans are so good on there own without religion. I remember the good ole days of Stalin, Pol Pot, and Ma Ze Dong... Ah, those were the days
not to mention abortions and euthenasia liberal atheists love to throw out there too Civilization at its finest, yes sir
Well to be fair. Heaven is ruled by communists. Considering whether you are a muslim or christian. You are judged on your beliefs (First priority) and not sin (thats the second priority). Just as if you where to not choose Kim Jong Un as your leader, then you would be killed : 3Yeah after all humans are so good on there own without religion. I remember the good ole days of Stalin, Pol Pot, and Ma Ze Dong... Ah, those were the days
Civilization at its finest, yes sir
Heaven is more like a monarchy where God is King. And this King unlike all dictators in communism cares about the people as individuals instead of a huge mass. I highly doubt Kim Jong Un would willfully die for his people unlike Jesus the "King of Kings." Where humans who are sinful can be ruthless dictators, the Heavenly Father who is Holy and righteous and good, is far from the same
leibowde84
Veteran Member
I think he's trying to get at exactly what you pointed out ... why are Muslims OK with the apparent invalidity of the Hadiths? Why do so many Muslims take the word of the authors of the Hadiths? And, I'm not sure that many Muslims believing in Hadiths hurts his argument at all. They could easily all have a lack of sufficient substantiation.
Mycroft
Ministry of Serendipity
Yeah after all humans are so good on there own without religion. I remember the good ole days of Stalin, Pol Pot, and Ma Ze Dong... Ah, those were the days
Civilization at its finest, yes sir
Religion's hands are far from clean. Recall, if you will, the Inquisition.
Servant_of_the_One1
Well-Known Member
No, we should keep hadiths. But thanks for your suggestion!
leibowde84
Veteran Member
Why should you keep them?
First, let's be real. Jesus taught to love your neighbor and treat them like yourself. He also LIVED by what He preached by forgiving those who tortured and murdered Him. So since He is the Founder of the religion, the follower (Christian) who does the opposite of that by murdering people is not following Him at all. Can't really blame the religion can you?
Now about the Inquisition. The inquisition where approximately 1,500 to 4,000 people were killed in a span of 350 years. Which is a max of about 11 people a year. And while that's 11 people too many, and very unchristian but it's hardly a genocide like atheist regimes. You'll find more people gunned down in Chicago in a month more then each year of the Inquisition.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
Isn't that merely an argument for not blaming Jesus?
If the religion forbid murder even to the point of Jesus commanding if you even hate someone in your heart, that it's tantamount to murder then you really can't blame the religion. People can call themselves Christian but if they don't follow what Christianity commands how are they Christian? I mean I can call myself an atheist, but I think my actions of praying to God, reading the bible, and going to church would disagree with my words somewhat wouldn't they.