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Should hate speech be counted as free speech?

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
A president shouldn't have concentrated, unilateral power whether we're talking about speech laws or anything else.

Has the government in Sweden or the Netherlands used their laws against hate speech to silence and quash opposition? When was the last time that happened?
We have a different government & society from
Sweden & those tulip twisting Dutch scalawags.
As you might observe, Trump & SCOTUS are
changing the game. Where you see no problem, I
see risk. Imagine Dems screwing the pooch in 2024,
& Trump won. He's vowed revenge on his foes.
A weakened 1st Amendment would have him
finger tenting, chortling, & plotting.

Note: We've already had states try to criminalize
insulting cops. There've been many other attempts
to quell political criticism. I've given examples over
the years.
I'll keep the 1st Amendment as it has been.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Hate speech in China? Challenging that Xi has the Mandate of Heaven. Hate speech in Russia? Challenging Putin or his war with Ukraine.

Restricting speech in the USA? Look at Florida and elsewhere for laws restricting speech.
Are we sharing a brain again?
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Do you think that hate speech should be protected in the US? Or do you believe there should be laws against hate speech?

I've always personally been a fan of criminalizing hate speech. It can incite to riot, lead to violence and murder, and creates a dangerous environment.

What do you all think?

Should we tolerate intolerance?
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The concept of hate speech is fallacious. The proper cure for problematic speech is more free speech, not less.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"The hate speech laws in India aim to prevent discord among its many ethnic and religious communities. The laws allow a citizen to seek the punishment of anyone who shows the citizen disrespect "on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, caste or any other ground whatsoever"."
Hate speech laws in India - Wikipedia

Courts decide if it is a hate speech, not the government.

Section 153(A)
Whoever (a) by words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise, promotes or attempts to promote, on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language, caste or community or any other ground whatsoever, disharmony or feelings of enmity, hatred or ill-will between different religious, racial, language or regional groups or castes or communities, or (b) commits any act which is prejudicial to the maintenance of harmony between different religious, racial, language or regional groups or castes or communities, and which disturbs or is likely to disturb the public tranquillity, .. shall be punished with imprisonment which may extend to three years, or with fine, or with both.
Section 295(A)
Whoever, with deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the religious feelings of any class of (citizens of India), (by words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise), insults or attempts to insult the religion or the religious beliefs of that class, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to (three years), or with fine, or with both.
Hate speech laws in India - Wikipedia
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Do you think that hate speech should be protected in the US? Or do you believe there should be laws against hate speech?

I've always personally been a fan of criminalizing hate speech. It can incite to riot, lead to violence and murder, and creates a dangerous environment.

What do you all think?
It should be protected at all costs. You attack one form of speech, you will put all speech in danger.

If a crime actually results , then you prosecute the offending individuals.

Speech alone is not a crime.
 

syo

Well-Known Member
Do you think that hate speech should be protected in the US? Or do you believe there should be laws against hate speech?

I've always personally been a fan of criminalizing hate speech. It can incite to riot, lead to violence and murder, and creates a dangerous environment.

What do you all think?
There are people looking for a fight. What can I say? :shrug:
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
@9-10ths_Penguin is quite right, a Canadian PM does have a lot of power. On the other hand, we don't need to resort to impeachment proceedings to get rid of one -- we can do that over tea with a non-confidence motion in the House.

@Stevicus, I am not aware of any party having tried to overturn the norms and standards of this nation. But we're so boring: our biggest precept for making Canada a nice place is POGG (Peace, Order and Good Government). I'm told our favourite colour is grey (don't want to offend). But do you know what the capital of Canada is? Mostly American! :p

I'm not sure if comparing the relative power of the Canadian PM and the US President is relevant to this particular topic. The President's power often rests on which party is in control of Congress, although when it comes to interpreting the Constitution and free speech issues, that's mainly the purview of the Supreme Court.

As for the possible overturning of the norms and standards of the nation, that can also be open to interpretation. What is commonly referred to as hate speech by today's standards were the norms and standards for the nation some 50-60 years ago and going all the way back to the very beginning. From the 17th century until about the mid 1960s, not only did the government allow and favor hate speech, it also allowed hateful ideologies and hateful policies to flourish.

Those were the norms and standards of the nation previously, although I'm not sure if Canada followed the same path or not. That's why I asked if Canada had any issues prior to adding hate crime provisions to their criminal code. If there was never any problem in Canada to begin with, then there likely wouldn't be any problems since the provisions were enacted.

In any case, the old order in America was challenged, with precedents such as Separate But Equal being overturned, as well as passage of the Civil Rights Acts, Voting Rights Act, and other such measures to set a new set of norms and standards for the nation. However, in order to challenge the old order and the behemoth of institutional racism, free speech protections were absolutely essential.

I don't recall that many people truly cared all that much about "hate speech," per se, as long as the hateful, fascistic policies were done away with and outlawed. People could still speak all they wanted. It wasn't really until some 20-30 years after that when people (at least in the US) started looking at the effects of speech itself.

The norms and standards of America transformed immensely primarily due to enhancing and expanding freedom of speech, not by restricting it. It wasn't really until decades later, mostly as an afterthought, that people started thinking about restricting hate speech - or any kind of speech deemed offensive or insensitive. Although it was never actually banned outright in America as it was in other countries. But it's still strongly condemned throughout society, and as I mentioned upthread, there are still legal ways of quashing malicious and menacing behavior without necessarily restricting free speech.

There's also the question of whether it even works to achieve a specific goal.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Do you think that hate speech should be protected in the US? Or do you believe there should be laws against hate speech?

I've always personally been a fan of criminalizing hate speech. It can incite to riot, lead to violence and murder, and creates a dangerous environment.

What do you all think?
I can't think of any good reason to tolerate it. We can speak our minds about pretty much anything without expressing hatred. And the addition of expressed hatred doesn't increase the validity of the message we're trying to deliver. In fact, for most people, it would decrease it's validity as it shows the messenger to be unable to control his/her emotions, using reason. And therefor lessons the reasonableness of the message, itself.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do you think that hate speech should be protected in the US?

No.

I should add that my position on free speech has been evolving these last few years, and I haven't reached a new stable position yet. I'm much less interested in people's right to express themselves than previously given how they do that these days and the resulting harm. This appears to be an epiphenomenon of the Internet.

In the past, one needed to write a book or be vetted in some other way before having a substantial audience. Editors would generally decline publishing inaccurate and inflammatory material, for example, limiting the spread of destructive disinformation. The rules and values that worked then are the ones most are bringing into the present, where they are allowing a type of cultural rot and decay to occur. New values are needed. I'm just not sure what I would recommend those to be yet.

Rights are an issue, such as voting rights and the right to bodily autonomy, but most people shouting about rights and claiming tyranny are clamoring about their right to do whatever they like in the name of their religions, regarding guns, where they can be unmasked or unvaccinated, and the like. People like Alex Jones are claiming persecution and inappropriate censoring. People like Trump banned from multiple social media platforms, too. I'm simply uninterested in what rights such people claim for themselves, and I cringe when I hear them use the word.

No government restrictions on speech. Case closed.

So then you don't object to perjury? How would you feel about Donald freely giving state secrets to Putin? Or how about your social security number, address, contact information, and bank accounts appearing on the Internet? Case reopened a bit yet?
 
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wellwisher

Well-Known Member
The problem is how do you define hate speech so it is not lopsided in favor of the Left or the Right? Now only Conservatives get censored, due to the lopsided definitions of hate speech designed by the left to favor the Left. We cannot continue to use a dual standard.

If you threaten birth centers this is not hate speech, even if the authors are full of anger and hate. Biden and the AG encourage this hate. Big tech then take the hint and ignores. This hate speech has led to destruction.

Defund the police was based on hate that led to riots and lawlessness such as looting. This hate speech incited real riots and not just imaginary hypothetical riots. Was it censored? No because the rules were biased in favor of these thugs serving the higher good of their dual justice system masters.

What I would do is allow both sides to come to the table. We will ask each side to present their top 10 hate speech items. We will end up with a list of 20, that all the censors need to abide by, or else be fined or sued.

In terms of censorship of misinformation, I think that we need to include a clause that allows us to long term evaluate censored information, to make sure the censorship is not the real misinformation. Censors are humans who can be bought and sold. Many have their own biases.

For example, the Hunter Biden Laptop story was censored and labeled as misinformation, before the 2020 election, even though it was the truth. In this case, the censors should receive some form of fine or punishment. The censorship was the real misinformation. These people may need to be censored; fired or pay a fine. We can use these people this as learning tool; set an example of them.

The idea is to avoid lazy or corruptible censors who have an agenda and will use the short term censorship of the truth to gain an advantage for their team. We need no statute of limitation, with suspected abuse active for years, since at times the truth is buried by corruption in government.

Back when the Russian Collusion Coup was running, there was constant misinformation sold as truth; fake news. It was such a large team effort that it was hard to tell the truth from fiction. One person writes a story and all the news agencies pick it up as spread it like it is was true. That much organized censorship and misinformation was finally deflated, but nothing happened to the con artists and liars. Unless censors are punish for such behavior, don't expect the con artists to leave those censorship jobs.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Do you think that hate speech should be protected in the US? Or do you believe there should be laws against hate speech?

I've always personally been a fan of criminalizing hate speech. It can incite to riot, lead to violence and murder, and creates a dangerous environment.

What do you all think?

The labeling of unliked speech as hate and then banning it is unethical, illegal and frankly a terrible idea.
Band on fraud and threats make sense, but to ban hate speech could be the full end to all discussion. That’s straight out of a distopian nightmare.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
That doesn't always stop or prevent the harm done, especially when one party has more social or political reach than the other.



France is one of the world's most robust secular democracies, if not the most robust. It didn't cave or change its laws even when terrorists killed people over "blasphemous" cartoons.

I think a lot of Americans seem to place undue importance on perceived uniqueness of the US. France is overall doing better than the US on multiple indices of freedom and quality of life. French voters also seem to me to value freedom quite highly considering that, unlike the US in 2016, they snubbed the authoritarian, far-right candidate in their last election.
The US is the world's oldest Republic and our Constitution and government has endured since the 18th century. The French Constitution has only existed since 1958 and they're on their fifth Republic. We have shown that we are able to withstand huge amounts of division and adversity, and even a hugely bloody and destructive civil war. France is dealing with massive social upheaval and tension, and many predict a civil war soon.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I'm sure that virtually all governments have laws against attempting to incite a riot. Sounds pretty common sense to me and not at all Orwellian.
It depends on what you mean by "inciting a riot". Were Rosa Parks and MLK "inciting riots" by civil disobedience? Were the George Floyd protesters "inciting a riot" by refusal the cop's orders to disburse?
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
It depends on what you mean by "inciting a riot". Were Rosa Parks and MLK "inciting riots" by civil disobedience? Were the George Floyd protesters "inciting a riot" by refusal the cop's orders to disburse?

No, those are examples of civil disobedience.

However, anyone who might have encouraged people to break store windows and commit violence during those demonstrations of civil disobedience could be rightfully charged with attempting to incite a riot.

During the MLK and Floyd demonstrations the vast majority of violence appeared to be perpetuated by the police.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Hate speech is not just a matter of slander and libel though. It can cause real suffering to those it is aimed at and can incite criminal behaviour.

And, by the way, recourse to the civil courts to obtain redress is a privilege of the rich. Civil actions are prohibitively costly for people of modest means. Furthermore the size of the damages awarded depends on the extent of the public reputation that is seen to have been damaged. So a non-entity, with little or no public reputation to lose, can expect little compensation. So actions for libel and slander are no answer at all.

Details of how the various defined categories of hate speech are treated in the UK are given here: Hate speech laws in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia
Libel and slander only mean anything if you're a public figure with a "brand" (consisting of yourself) to sell, or a business owner and it causes your business to suffer.

People have said mean things to me, stalked me, hacked my accounts, threatened to kill me, released my personal info online, etc. Censorship would not have helped in any of those cases.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Is being an ******* really worth fighting over as a right in light of the abuse, destruction and death it can cause (as has been pointed out)?
Yes, everyone has the right to be an ******* and express that if they desire. The ability to speak ones mind is a basic human dignity. Do you want to be told what you can or cannot think, say, read, write, watch, wear, etc.?
 
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