Should it be illegal to offer to pray for someone or is it free exercise of religion?

[columbus]

What is relevant to me is to ask "is this person calling this a prayer, and is what they are doing generally accepted as a prayer by others in their community?" If the answer to that is "yes," then what they are doing is prayer, regardless of what some outsider wants to call it.

I disagree.
If what he is doing only affects him and his community, that's one thing. If it involves other people then it may not be prayer at all.
Calling harassment prayer doesn't change the fact that it is harassment, regardless of what someone else thinks. It may be subtle harassment or stalking or whatever, but it still is.
Tom

 

[Kilgore Trout]

In my church, we pray by rubbing up against strange women. I'm constantly being persecuted for praying on the subway.

 

[Skwim]

Okay, I need to do this, because I think the OP and thread title are misleading. The specific example the OP is talking about is this:

"Father James Linton was arrested last month outside the San Bernardino Planned Parenthood for offering to pray with women entering the abortion facility. Police held him for six hours and later charged him with criminal trespass. If convicted, Father Linton could be sentenced to up to 90 days in jail and a $400 fine.

When he was arrested, Father Linton, an Anglican pastor, was standing on a public easement offering incoming mothers and fathers alternatives to abortion and praying for them to change their minds."​

Asking whether or not it is okay to basically harass women who want to get an abortion is a very different question than asking if it is okay to pray for someone in some other context.

I was just about to post the very same.

The question, perhaps, becomes thus: "when does prayer become harassment?"

Agreed. In this case I believe it does amount to harassment.

Father James Linton was arrested last month outside the San Bernardino Planned Parenthood for offering to pray with women entering the abortion facility.
“Father Linton simply offered assistance and alternatives to its patrons that could save the lives of their precious babies.”​

The prayer was unasked for and it tries to persuade the mother and father to change their minds by appealing to their emotions. One has to wonder just how much of the "prayer" was actually directed toward god, but instead designed to directly impact the mother and father. I suspect the later was the actual target. My impression is that in most cases the decision to abort is not an easy one, many decisions coming after anguished bouts of debating the pros and cons. To finally resolve the debate within oneself and then be confronted by someone telling you that you're wrong and that you're killing your "precious baby" is highly unfair and harassing. If deciding to have an abortion and the abortion itself wasn't so personal and emotionally charged I probably wouldn't consider the offer to "pray" to be harassment; however, under these circumstances I do.



.

 

[Quintessence]

I disagree.
If what he is doing only affects him and his community, that's one thing. If it involves other people then it may not be prayer at all.
Calling harassment prayer doesn't change the fact that it is harassment, regardless of what someone else thinks. It may be subtle harassment or stalking or whatever, but it still is.
Tom

I think perhaps there's been a miscommunication. I'm not saying that an outsider to a tradition or culture is prohibited from putting their own labels on a different culture's practices or passing judgement. What I'm saying is that if a particular tradition or culture calls something they do by a particular name, then that should be respected and not overwritten by a cultural outsider. Or at least it should, if one wishes to avoid ethnocentrism and adhere to scholarly standards of objectivity and impartiality. Folks need to be clear on the line between describing your subject and then passing judgement on it (especially when you're an outsider). Doing otherwise is a no-no in academic circles, and I guess since that's where I roll, I'm more mindful of it?

 

[Callisto]

How do you trespass on public property (what is this public property he was on)?

Public property is still owned by some entity with authority to determine what is allowed in that space. E.g., the White House is also public property but there are definite limitations, one can't just stroll in and/or do as he please.

 

[whirlingmerc]

"When he was arrested, Father Linton, an Anglican pastor, was standing on a public easement offering incoming mothers and fathers alternatives to abortion and praying for them to change their minds."

He may have been arrested for so called trespassing but reality was he was standing on public property'

 

[McBell]

"When he was arrested, Father Linton, an Anglican pastor, was standing on a public easement offering incoming mothers and fathers alternatives to abortion and praying for them to change their minds."

He may have been arrested for so called trespassing but reality was he was standing on public property'

there is not a single piece of property in the USA where one is completely free of trespassing charges.
Yes, it is completely possible, in the USA, to get trespassing charges against you for being on your own property.

 

[Kemosloby]

The pastor was wrong stepping in where he should know he'd be unwanted. Like Jesus said to his disciples to move on if people don't accept you.

Mark 6:11 And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them."

 

[Thanda]

Public property is still owned by some entity with authority to determine what is allowed in that space. E.g., the White House is also public property but there are definite limitations, one can't just stroll in and/or do as he please.

What public property was the priest standing on?

 

[GoodbyeDave]

I can't find any report on this story other than on Christian sites, and some of them rather weird ones. It does report that he has been one of a number of Christians who have been standing outside the clinic on a regular basis, trying to persuade people not to go in. Whether that comes under the US First Amendment I can't say, but in the UK we'd call it harassment or obstructing a public footpath.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

An Anglican priest on public property was arrested and faces fine and imprisonment for offering to pray with two women as example.

http://www.lifenews.com/2016/12/02/...g-outside-planned-parenthood-abortion-clinic/

It sounds like something that happened over here. We have a Catholic Church close by and a pornography and langerie shop way on the other side of town on the same street. The Church congregation felt it had the obligation to protest against the business products because it was "supposed to be" near their property and immoral according to their views. The manager told me she had to remodel the store and move further down to prevent her from loosing her business again. Her prices for regular movies that you'd get at Blockbuster for, what not even 15 dollars are over 25 now and that's just for a movie with no plot.

If this priest is like many congregants here, he probably was very "motivated" to tell women what they shouldn't do even though they may not share his morals and/or his faith. That and it sounds like the priest was probably trespassing and depending on the state, that by itself can cause jail time with or without religious causes being the cause.

If San Bernardino is in another country, other countries have more strict rules than we do. I mean, my aunt went to a Muslim country as a tourist and if she didn't wear a burka, she would have gotten arrested. America doesn't have that, thank gosh. Though, a lot of Catholics I know would like to have America be a christian nation again not realizing that America was a protestant nation not Catholic.

So...

 

[Unveiled Artist]

"When he was arrested, Father Linton, an Anglican pastor, was standing on a public easement offering incoming mothers and fathers alternatives to abortion and praying for them to change their minds."

He may have been arrested for so called trespassing but reality was he was standing on public property'

But the context is that he was proselytizing his morals and faith on other people in a place his religion doesn't approve of. What other reason why he would be on that property if not to convince women not to abort their babies and use the facility? That would mean that clinic would loose people who wish to perform abortions.

If I went to the U.S. Capitol Visitor's Center (where I used to volunteer) and it is public property government or not, and I gave out flyers that says US is not a good nation and promoted visitors to stay in their country, I would have (not hypothetical) get arrested because they consider that a "threat" especially during election season and things of that nature.

Where I live is public property but because of the type of apartment complex I live in and it's own by the Church, JW, Mormons, and any one not Catholic cannot go knock "door to door" to tell people about their faiths. Yet, once or twice a year, the Catholic Church visits people all the time.

It's an invasion of a person's freedom to do as they will with their own bodies and so forth. I'm surprised they considered jail, but definitely I see why he would get fined. I'm surprised that the clinic didn't bring a law suite over the issue well depending if he has been there before too and if the clinic asked him to go off their property and he chose not to.

It shouldn't be illegal to pray for someone if it doesn't physically and literally impose on someone else's freedom to do and say whatever they want (legally).

 

[Deidre]

It shouldn't be illegal to merely pray for/with others in public but it's disingenuous for even a priest/pastor to suggest he is merely ''praying'' when in essence he is harassing them. I don't think that is what Jesus had in mind.

 

[Callisto]

Public property is still owned by some entity with authority to determine what is allowed in that space. E.g., the White House is also public property but there are definite limitations, one can't just stroll in and/or do as he please.

According to the OP:

An Anglican priest on public property was arrested and faces fine and imprisonment for offering to pray with two women as example.

http://www.lifenews.com/2016/12/02/...g-outside-planned-parenthood-abortion-clinic/

 

[pandagurl71]

IMO, this was harassment. This had nothing to do with prayer. Religious freedom and practice is protected under our constitution. This was misleading. I find it also very cruel to do when these women are already going through something horrible.

 

[Underhill]

Okay, I need to do this, because I think the OP and thread title are misleading. The specific example the OP is talking about is this:

"Father James Linton was arrested last month outside the San Bernardino Planned Parenthood for offering to pray with women entering the abortion facility. Police held him for six hours and later charged him with criminal trespass. If convicted, Father Linton could be sentenced to up to 90 days in jail and a $400 fine.

When he was arrested, Father Linton, an Anglican pastor, was standing on a public easement offering incoming mothers and fathers alternatives to abortion and praying for them to change their minds."​

Asking whether or not it is okay to basically harass women who want to get an abortion is a very different question than asking if it is okay to pray for someone in some other context.

That is a substantial difference to the original post. Almost like someone was trying to pull the wool on us....

 

[Akivah]

According to the OP:

The facility in question erected a wall to shelter their parking lot from private citizens loudly expressing their dissenting opinions. My question is how the priest could have only been on public property if the clients were in a parking lot behind a wall on private property?

 

[VioletVortex]

People who pray for others without their permission, especially those who verbally ask to do so, **** me off. I don't think there should be a law against it, unless it becomes harassment, in which case, it should be dealt with accordingly. I think it should become harassment pretty easily, the act it self borderline on it anyways.

 

[arthra]

I was at an internment at the local cemetery a few days ago for my step-mother... I had a prayer book with me and asked if they wanted a prayer but was told by her daughter that her mother wanted no prayers and would "haunt" anyone who offered a prayer at her internment so I agreed not to offer the prayer. I do feel that only those requesting a prayer should receive it...rather than publicly offering an unwanted prayer.

 

[SomeRandom]

If someone was praying to me on my way to a medical facility, I'd probably either reject it politely or have the person arrested for harassment depending on the circumstance. Because some of those pushy prayer type people do harass you under the so called guise of freedom of religion. Free exercise of religion? Yeah, how about the right to freedom FROM religion?