Should Kids Be Encouraged To Experiment With Sex and Drugs?

[Mike182]

Why not have the principal pass out sheets of acid to the students and take them rock wall climbing as well?

are you seriously suggesting we do this? because no one else in this thread has suggested anything like that. or was this an attempt at humoring those you disagree with?

i must say that Druidus has a much more thought-out idea of legalised drug usage than i do, i agree with what he is saying.

 

[Pariah]

The whole idea of experimenting individually takes away from the adrenaline rush of breaking the rules. If you condone it, it just loses part of its flavor.

Also, it depends on the drugs. Psychoactive drugs don't seem all that bad, in my opinion and should be allowed, but if disallowed (as they are, right now) should also ban alcohol, which kills far more people than LSD ever did. I might need to get my hands on some Salvia Divinorum.

 

[Haydaman]

The Netherlands, Germany, and some other European countries have less drug addicts than the U.S, and this is percentage wise. They've legalized and taxed drugs, and the U.S can do it if they choose. But have you seen all these anti drug commercials lately? The public would go bonkers. Anyway, if kids see that it's so easy to get drugs they might lose interest, or never even start. For a lot of kids, there's a rush in getting to do something they're not supposed to be doing, or even a rush when they get in trouble. I'd have to agree it would be the lesser of two evils.

 

[Pariah]

The Forbidden Apple effect
Like I said, there is a thrill in doing something you shouldn't, but when it becomes endorsed, it becomes the norm.

Do you have actual numbers, though, Haydaman, for those countries? It would be interesting to juxtapose them onto each other and see if there is indeed fewer problems

 

[Haydaman]

I can only go off of what I read a few days ago about the issue..however It might take some time to find the actual numbers..I'll get back to you on that .

 

[Blindinglight]

The Netherlands, Germany, and some other European countries have less drug addicts than the U.S, and this is percentage wise. They've legalized and taxed drugs, and the U.S can do it if they choose.

Yes, if America were to legalize drugs, and tax them, there would be money for a national health plan, social security, and better education.

But have you seen all these anti drug commercials lately?

Yes, not only are they dumb, they are also often based on myths.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How do you keep track of that?

Easy. Bills are paid, there is food in the fridge, enough money set back for gas, some set back for lunch money during work, and all other financial necessities are taken care of first. Similiar to going to the movie, eating out, buying a new game, or other things that require extra money.

If it's legal, why would you want to do that?

Sadly, many drugs are illegal in the States. But, legal or not, NO drug should be used while in public, and advertising legal or illecit drug use in public isn't the smartest thing to do either.

But...but...but I thought people are going to do what they are going to do? Why should they use it sparingly?

To maintane proper functioning, and to not become addicted. And some drugs will destroy your life if you should become addicted. The addiction rate of the drug does depend on the exact defintion of "sparingly" though. Marijuan can be used several times a week, and you will not become addicted, and you can still function normally, after and before the effects are in effect. Cocain though, is very easy to become addicted to. You have not seen a sad situation until you have seen someone on all fours scouring the carpet for some spilt coke.

We do that with alcohol and I don't see why it would be any different with any of these drugs.

There is a difference though, between alcohol, which many people use, and the effects are well known, and something like marijuana, were different stories of the effects and addiction are comming from both sides, and something that not many people know the effects of, such as Salvia Divinorum. Salvia itself is so powerful, that many stores that sell it will give you a sheet that tells you what it does, and what to expect, its chemical make up, addiction rates, and even the legal status. Knowledge is power, especially with something that will change your perception and behavor for awhile, or alter your mind alltogether.

That, is responsible drug use. Also, not encouraging others to start is considered a rule for responsible use. Some drugs are expected to be offered during certain social gatherings, such as offering someone a hit off a joint at a concert, but under normal situations, it's a no-no.

Have you ever seen a good, strong, decent man turn into an addict? Have you ever seen a family ripped apart by that addiction?

Yes, I have. But that does not mean everyone will become an addict.

If some adults aren't strong enough to fight off addiction why in the world would you reccomend that children experiment with it? Russian roulette anyone?

The difference is the speaker, rather than just saying don't do it, is acknowledging that some will experiement, and he is saying "Listen, I know you will experiement. Just do it responsible." I was a highschooler just two years ago. I know people in that age group are much more likly to listen to someone that doesn't talk negativly about something. Or at least not ridicule them, and forget about them the next day.

 

[Haydaman]

Yes, if America were to legalize drugs, and tax them, there would be money for a national health plan, social security, and better education.

Brilliance.

 

[Druidus]

Marijuan can be used several times a week, and you will not become addicted, and you can still function normally, after and before the effects are in effect.

Marijuana can be used daily, if you wish it. It has about as much addictive potential as a food you really enjoy. It is not physically addictive like heroin, and is much less psychologically addictive than cocaine.

The only way you can get addicted to cannabis is by using it as a bandaid for your emotional problems, the same way some people use sweet/fatty foods like ice cream or deep fried potatoes.

Frankly, I'm sick of trying to prove a negative. The onus is not on me to prove that drugs do not cause harm, it is on the opposition to prove that drugs do cause harm. For instance, tell me, what would the harm of legalized cannabis be? Or legalized LSD? Or legalized heroin?

For cannabis, no harm would come. In fact, we could suggest that, similar to what happened in the Netherlands with their quasi-legalization, hard drug use and alcohol use would plummet. Sounds pretty damned good to me.

For LSD, no harm would come. People would simply experience new avenues of subjective reality and consciousness. LSD does not kill brain cells or harm the body, and is not physically addictive (it's the same with all psychedelics).

For heroin, there could be some harm, but less harm then we experience now. Heroin, and all opiates except for one semi-sythetic opioid I cannot recall, do not cause any body or brain harm. It will not kill brain cells, it won't screw up your liver, and it won't make you stupid. The danger would come only from the addiction potential, which, admittedly, is high (though less so than cigarrettes, which, interestingly enough, kill more people in 6-12 months than heroin ever has). Indeed, if the drug is cheap and potent, as under a legalization model, addiction is not a problem at all. People attach negative connotations to addiction, but that's only because of the effects of addiction under Modern Prohibition.

If you can get heroin cheaply and consistently, it wouldn't even matter if you were a daily user, the way many used opium before it was made illegal. You'd simply finish your stuff for the day and then enjoy your heroin before bed, or whenever. If you had children, that responsibility would be paramount, and you'd need to have a sober parent/trusted adult in case anything went wrong (not with the heroin, which would be pure and safer than driving your car to work, but what if, for instance, the house caught fire somehow. The sedation of the heroin would be such that you wouldn't be able to do much).

Of course, I would still recommend a maximum of 1-2 times per month.

Cocaine would definately have harm if addiction was not controlled, because it does cause neuron death.

There are obviously kinks to be worked out, as in any theoretical model. But I'm not suggesting we jump from one day with illegal drugs to the next with all drugs legal. I'm suggesting we start with somthing like cannabis and flesh out the psychedelics over time, carefully adjusting the system we would be building as we went along. Eventually we could try the dissociatives, then opiates/opioids, and amphetamines/cocaine.

It's ridiculous how people assume that legalizing drugs would cause nation-wide chaos. Life would continue as normal. You wouldn't even see drug-use, as it would be legal only in the privacy of ones own home or property, as it is with alcohol.

 

[mrsk]

Yes, I have. But that does not mean everyone will become an addict.


The difference is the speaker, rather than just saying don't do it, is acknowledging that some will experiement, and he is saying "Listen, I know you will experiement. Just do it responsible." I was a highschooler just two years ago. I know people in that age group are much more likly to listen to someone that doesn't talk negativly about something. Or at least not ridicule them, and forget about them the next day.

Agreed. Not everyone will become an addict, but why risk it? My husband had no clue he would become an addict, yet he did. He would tell you today that the ride wasn't worth the cost of the ticket!

Not sure what you mean by talking negatively? There are negative aspects to life and they need to be discussed! If a teenager can't even handle that they sure as heck can't handle drug use responsibly!! In every society there are rules that need to be followed. We don't always like them, but they are still there. Our house rules are simple. "I understand that you may want to experiment, but as long as you live under my roof I hope that you respect me enough to NOT do it. In our home, our lives, drug use is unnecessary, unwanted, and unacceptable.

Druidus.... You do have some well thought out ideas about leagalizing drugs, but IMO that would apply to RESPONSIBLE adults. The OP was about encouraging, or at the very least condoning experimentation for children. While there are certainly some parents out there that would agree w/that, I think you would be hard pressed to find them in great numbers! There are simply to many variables, to many things that could go wrong to condone the behaviour.
You seem very intelligent, mature for your age. I don't believe you could honestly tell me that you feel the MAJORITY of your peers are the same? How about two years ago? Three?
You can educate them all you want, they still tend to have the "it won't happen to me" attitude. Most kids do. Do you think a 15 year old experimenting with drugs would recognize the signs of addiction?

 

[Druidus]

Agreed. Not everyone will become an addict, but why risk it? My husband had no clue he would become an addict, yet he did. He would tell you today that the ride wasn't worth the cost of the ticket!

What drug did your husband become addicted to? The reason I take the risk with the few drugs I use that are addictive is because I have found my use of these drugs to be beneficial to my well-being and happiness. Because I research each drug exhaustively before I use it, I minimize the risk of harm and addiction. I fully believe that if your husband is an intelligent and responsible person, and if he had been able to research or be educated about the drug/s he got addicted to before he got addicted to them, he would never have become addicted.

However, I do recognize that everyone has a choice. Just like I would never wish someone or some group of people to tell me not to use drugs (something I do that harms no one, not even myself), I would never tell someone or some group of people that they should use drugs (not using drugs also harms no one). I would never attempt to coerce someone into experimenting with drugs, it is a personal choice. I just wish that my personal choice (one that harms no one) was respected under law, rather than being an illegalized choice, causing me to be villified, criminalized.

Not sure what you mean by talking negatively? There are negative aspects to life and they need to be discussed!

Yes, there are negative aspects of life, and they definately need to get discussed. But what he meant was that telling kids that they should never do drugs or they'll go insane, die, kill people, become evil, ruin their lives, or mentally damage themselves doesn't help at all. Just look at the failure of the D.A.R.E. program. Rather, treat teenagers as intelligent and sentient (if less experienced) beings. Teach them the truth about drugs, the real scientific potential harms, and let them decide on their own. Of course, the parents have precedence, I recognize that, and they should have the right to "protect" their offspring from drugs if they are so inclined.

However, while some children listen, not all will. In fact, nearly half won't. At the very least, if they come to you to talk about their experimentation without fearing your punishment, you can step in if it becomes serious and set strict guidelines (like 1-2 times a month, and not if grades are down, etc.). I do not suggest this for heroin or cocaine, these drugs are certainly not appropriate for young people. But cannabis, and perhaps mushrooms in older and mature teenagers, I see as being a safe avenue of exploration, with no risk (no one has ever died from cannabis, and only one mushroom overdose has ever been verified). Again, it should be up to the parent, but there is always the risk that your child will start experimenting without telling you for fear of punishment, and, without guidance, will harm him/herself.

You do have some well thought out ideas about leagalizing drugs, but IMO that would apply to RESPONSIBLE adults. The OP was about encouraging, or at the very least condoning experimentation for children.

I think that drug use should be for adults primarily in any case. I certainly do not think that cocaine or heroin are appropriate for children or teenagers. I do believe that if the child wishes to explore cannabis (and is at least ~14 and a mature individual) and the parent has no qualms, then the child should be allowed the exploration. I feel the same with mushrooms, but the age should be increased by 2-3 years.

I do not think that the speaker at the school meant to encourage or condone experimentation. He condoned harm reduction. He knew that no matter what, some of the students would experiment with drugs. He wanted them to at least be knowledgeable and well-read about what they are doing. Yes, perhaps they shouldn't be doing drugs at all, but if a certain percentage will regardless, should they not be well-armed with knowledge?

You seem very intelligent, mature for your age. I don't believe you could honestly tell me that you feel the MAJORITY of your peers are the same? How about two years ago? Three?

I believe that a small majority of my peers at my present age would be capable of experimenting with drugs (mature and responsible enough) so long as they had been well-taught about the subject, or had educated themselves. However, I must admit, 2-4 years ago I would have no faith in the ability of my peers at the time to use drugs responsibly and intelligently. But, then, this is why I do not condone use by children and young teenagers.

You can educate them all you want, they still tend to have the "it won't happen to me" attitude. Most kids do.

The superman effect. Yeah, most do go through an "invincible" stage, unfortunately.

Do you think a 15 year old experimenting with drugs would recognize the signs of addiction?

If they had been taught, or had researched themselves, yes, I do. However, the drugs that are addictive I would not wish any 15 year old to experiment with. I would prefer that their use be restricted to cannabis, and occasional mushrooms at most (it takes 10-14 days for mushroom tolerance to return to baseline, so perhaps once or twice a month, or as a special treat on the holidays).

I get the feeling that you have little personal experience in drugs. This is fine, but because you do not you do not understand how they have helped me.

I understand my parents far more because of my use of mushrooms and MDMA. I was able to leave my own self-interested junk behind, clear out my mind, and see things from their perspective. I fear that without my 4-5 experiences with MDMA I would be at odds with my mother all the time, not understanding that she merely wants to protect me because of the love she feels for me.

Some drugs, especially the psychedelics, can help you re-evaluate your choices, make better ones in the future, change things about yourself that you don't like or that hurt others, and, at the same time, understand yourself better. Psychedelics and MDMA really are like journeying into the self.

BTW, I must say, it is enjoyable conversing with you.

 

[mrsk]

What drug did your husband become addicted to? I fully believe that if your husband is an intelligent and responsible person, and if he had been able to research or be educated about the drug/s he got addicted to before he got addicted to them, he would never have become addicted.

Cocaine, then meth.I disagree. He was of the "It won't happen to me age" (Some people take longer to grow out of that! ) Also, it is his personality and he is(was) the macho "I can handle anything" kind of guy. Different people have different personalities. Some do have addictive personalities, unfortunately most of them don't know it! Two of my children I wouldn't really worry about with addiction issues, but the other two would really worry me.

I just wish that my personal choice (one that harms no one) was respected under law, rather than being an illegalized choice, causing me to be villified, criminalized.

As it should be. You do understand the difficulties with that though?

However, while some children listen, not all will.

That's a given!

Again, it should be up to the parent, but there is always the risk that your child will start experimenting without telling you for fear of punishment, and, without guidance, will harm him/herself.

Which is why I ask my children not to....out of respect for me. I do have to say though that I probably have it easier than some parents. My children have first hand knowledge of what can happen so there really isn't much problem in this area. We didn't even know where thier father was for 9 years and now they are free to ask any questions they need to. He talks very openly with them about his addiction. What drugs did what, how they made him feel, etc.

I do not think that the speaker at the school meant to encourage or condone experimentation.

Probably not, but you have to be very careful, and very clear when you speak to impressionable teenagers. They are very good at twisting words to mean what THEY want them to! (I know some adults like that too!)

Yes, perhaps they shouldn't be doing drugs at all, but if a certain percentage will regardless, should they not be well-armed with knowledge?

Of course they should. I just believe you can impart the knowledge w/o condoning the action.

I get the feeling that you have little personal experience in drugs. This is fine, but because you do not you do not understand how they have helped me.

Probably more than you would think. Spent a good part of my junior yr in high school on one thing or another. Later, alcohol was my drug of choice. Honestly though, I can't think of a single good decision I ever made while I was using or drinking. Which is why I am so against my kids using. Experience has taught me that there is so much more out there for them. No high ever compared to the joy of holding my child, or being on the bike w/my husband. The sun on my face, the wind in my hair. My sons stupid jokes. I could go on forever on the joy I find in every day!

Some drugs, especially the psychedelics, can help you re-evaluate your choices, make better ones in the future, change things about yourself that you don't like or that hurt others, and, at the same time, understand yourself better. Psychedelics and MDMA really are like journeying into the self.

Nothing a good hard look in the mirror won't accomplish! Guess I'm the "I can do it myself!" type. I'd rather do all that w/o the help of drugs. Feel more accomplished that way. I should probably also admit to my control issues. My husband uses the term "control freak" but I think thats a little harsh!

BTW, I must say, it is enjoyable conversing with you.

Why Thank you! You too!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Not sure what you mean by talking negatively? There are negative aspects to life and they need to be discussed!

By using terms like don't, never, equating negative characteristics to something, when some in the audience will know its a lie. If a speaker would have came to my high school, and gave Refer Madness examples of what marijuana does, about 75% (approximate number, but a realistic guestimation were I went) of the student body would have immediatly tuned out, knowing the speach is based on lies.
If someone said to go ahead and try them, since you will and probably have, just do it responsible, we would have been more likly to listen.

Marijuana can be used daily, if you wish it. It has about as much addictive potential as a food you really enjoy. It is not physically addictive like heroin, and is much less psychologically addictive than cocaine.

True. Allthough, it is possible to smoke enough marijuana to get to the point you have to smoke it to feel normal. But, that requires ALOT of marijuana, and constant smoking of it. And the feeling normal only while stoned does leave in about day, two at the most.

 

[Tiberius]

His advice is lame. Saying that kids are gonna do x anyway, so we might as well facilitate it, is a copout to the highest degree. It takes away the responsibility of the parents/guardians to attempt to teach the child how to make good decisions, by convincing themselves that no matter what they teach them, the child will disobey and do it anyway.

He maybe could have tried to make a case with the sex, but the drugs? Every kid wants to smoke something right? Whatever.

Agreed, it is stupid. it's no different than saying that a pedophile is going to abuse children, so he might as well abuse the child under the supervision of the child's parents.

 

[Druidus]

it's no different than saying that a pedophile is going to abuse children, so he might as well abuse the child under the supervision of the child's parents.

Drugs are nothing like child molesters. Drugs don't rape children, friend. I find it absolutely insulting that my recreational and spiritual use of certain substances would be equated with the rape of children.

 

[Mike182]

Agreed, it is stupid. it's no different than saying that a pedophile is going to abuse children, so he might as well abuse the child under the supervision of the child's parents.

gosh you're right... i didn't realise that children choose to get molested, just like drug users choose to take drugs. the element of choice that is involved in these two acts that you are comparing is well thought out. :sarcastic


choosing to take drugs is a choice, i know that excessive drug use and addiction can victimise others in society so i won't say that excessive drug usage is a victimless act, but planned and reasonable drug usage is victimless, where as your comparison of this to molesting children which is never victimless just does doesn't add up.

 

[Blindinglight]

Agreed, it is stupid. it's no different than saying that a pedophile is going to abuse children, so he might as well abuse the child under the supervision of the child's parents.

Drug use is by choice. Being raped is not. I use a few drugs for spiritual reasons.
Are you familiar with the "Peyote Church?" They are legally allowed to use peyote buttons for there rituals.

 

[Tiberius]

gosh you're right... i didn't realise that children choose to get molested, just like drug users choose to take drugs. the element of choice that is involved in these two acts that you are comparing is well thought out. :sarcastic


choosing to take drugs is a choice, i know that excessive drug use and addiction can victimise others in society so i won't say that excessive drug usage is a victimless act, but planned and reasonable drug usage is victimless, where as your comparison of this to molesting children which is never victimless just does doesn't add up.

The drugs don't choose to be taken, and the children don't choose to be abused.

But the person who takes the drugs is choosing to do it just as the person who abuses the children is choosing to do that.

 

[Mike182]

The drugs don't choose to be taken, and the children don't choose to be abused.

But the person who takes the drugs is choosing to do it just as the person who abuses the children is choosing to do that.

but the two subjects are different in nature, your comparison or drugs to molesting children is flawed.

 

[Reverend Rick]

If you need drugs to be happy, there is something wrong with your life.

Ask most teenagers who get pregnant if drugs or alcohol is involved? By the way, alcohol is a drug and is ten times worse than cannabis.