Should Muslim veils be banned in public universities?

[gsa]

France is debating whether or not to ban certain forms of dress at state financed public universities. The newest proposal is being promoted by the French UMP Party, in a rather transparent attempt to bolster its standing with voters inclined to support the National Front. Last summer, a European human rights court upheld a ban on covering one's face in public, which effectively outlawed the burqa in France. The proposals regarding the hijab are more controversial, particularly extending the ban from secondary schools to institutes of higher education that serve adults. Gender integration and secularism are cited in support of the proposal.

What do you think?

 

[gsa]

For the record, I voted no. I do not think that banning headscarves is necessary, particularly not at the university level.

 

[Awoon]

Ban them. They look like thieves wearing them.

 

[Quintessence]

When secularism becomes banishment of religion, it is no longer secularism, but an anti-religious agenda.

 

[gsa]

Ban them. They look like thieves wearing them.

Why would you say that?

 

[Awoon]

Wear a mask into a Bank and see the trouble it causes. Same as a University.

 

[gsa]

When secularism becomes banishment of religion, it is no longer secularism, but an anti-religious agenda.

Well there are limits placed on religion, and religious expression. For example, teachers cannot lead students in prayer in the US public school system, Christian employers cannot discriminate against non-Christians in employment and public accommodation, etcetera.

I think that the question is rather, what are the limits of secularism and religious expression? Limits on prayer at the public university level are subject to different constitutional tests in the United States, for example, than similar prayers in a secondary school setting.

 

[gsa]

Wear a mask into a Bank and see the trouble it causes. Same as a University.

True, but the proposal would prohibit hair coverings that do not fully cover the face. France already bans the burqa and niqab, I believe.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

So France's secularism is compelling others to distance themselves from their religious symbols/dress?

 

[gsa]

So France's secularism is compelling others to distance themselves from their religious symbols/dress?

Laicite is conceptually different from a simple separation of church and state, although it includes it. In France, certain particularities (ethnic, religious, linguistic, etcetera) are minimized or abandoned in the public sphere to promote the equality and fraternity of French citizens. This presents particular problems for very devout Muslims, Christians and Jews, of course, but it benefits everyone for the most part.

 

[Tarheeler]

No, I don't think that religious garb should be outlawed in public. I also don't think that non-religious garb should be outlawed in public.

I can understand security concerns, but most places already have adequate policies in place to deal with issue while also allowing a person the freedom to follow their customs.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

No.

 

[Revoltingest]

No vote here.

 

[Koldo]

No. However, the staff should be able to require the veil to be taken off temporarily to check the identity if the need arises.

 

[Quintessence]

Well there are limits placed on religion, and religious expression. For example, teachers cannot lead students in prayer in the US public school system, Christian employers cannot discriminate against non-Christians in employment and public accommodation, etcetera.

Sure. But this is rather apples and yarn skeins, don't you think? Wearing something that is an expression of one's religion is not particularly comparable to these scenarios. Demanding everyone else wear them (or not wear them) on the other hand, is.

I think that the question is rather, what are the limits of secularism and religious expression? Limits on prayer at the public university level are subject to different constitutional tests in the United States, for example, than similar prayers in a secondary school setting.

I think that restricting what someone wears on the basis of religion is a very clear and obvious violation of freedom of expression. And, in this case, a very clear and obvious anti-Islamic policy. It would be one thing if they were proposing a universal dress code that was blind to someone's culture or religion. That is not what is happening here.

 

[gsa]

Sure. But this is rather apples and yarn skeins, don't you think? Wearing something that is an expression of one's religion is not particularly comparable to these scenarios. Demanding everyone else wear them (or not wear them) on the other hand, is.



I think that restricting what someone wears on the basis of religion is a very clear and obvious violation of freedom of expression. And, in this case, a very clear and obvious anti-Islamic policy. It would be one thing if they were proposing a universal dress code that was blind to someone's culture or religion. That is not what is happening here.

These are universal dress codes, in a sense: Non-Muslim women would also be prohibited from wearing headscarves in class. There just wouldn't be a religious exemption.

Similarly, the ban on the face coverings also prohibits people from wearing masks into banks, as one poster pointed out above thread. Of course, we know that the motivation is Islamic dress, but there are other considerations that were deemed acceptable, for example, by the European Court of Human Rights.

 

[Quintessence]

Gotta love how sneaky and underhanded humans are when they can't get overt bigotry into law. They find some other excuse that will be deemed acceptable instead. I gotta say that excuses like "since an infinitesimally small number of people rob banks with masks, we're going to ban masks" are pathetically transparent, however. What's next, trench coats? Because an infinitesimally small number of people hide guns in trech coats during mass shootings. We should ban those too. Actually, let's just ban all clothing. You can hide weapons in any clothing.

 

[Vinayaka]

Just ban people from universities. The murders, rapes, vandalism, petty theft, etc. is all done by people.

 

[Faybull]

If a woman wants to wear it, so be it. The only ban should be on forcing women to wear them.

 

[Sunstone]

I can get behind the French banning blouses and bras on the grounds that they interfere with French culture, but headscarves? No.