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Should Muslims be concerned with what is written in Gospel and Torah?

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Veteran Member
Premium Member
I posted this another thread, but you can answer it here, since it seems this is the new place for this discussion:

Investigate truth, verses are sometimes abrogated verses like the fighting verses are all situational and depend on the situation. There is a hadith that a latter Imam contradicted previous Imam on a ruling and then another later Imam said, it's because Sunnah also abrogates Sunnah just like Quran. The thing with Quran, no verse is ever completely abrogated but depends on situation.

If anyone believes taxes is going to remain the same as the Prophet practiced with the technology, education, roads, infrastructure, healthcare, and other things, when Imam Mahdi comes, they are fools and don't understand Quran or Sunnah in this regard.....

The Quran is written in a way that it explains the reasons for the Sunnah while Sunnah sometimes is more specific. However Quran has been built over 23 years, and nothing exists like this writing at all, and there are many verses that talk about the role of the Messenger for all times and eventually his message is meant for all humans. Also the dominance of his guidance is alluded in Quran many places, and it's linked with the twelve luminaries that represent the founder to be Twelve...

Also in Suratal Araaf, it's linked with the twelve branches and successors of Moses tree of guidance after him, the issue of that God has authority over heavens and earth, and there is whole theme about the universality of Mohammad's Nubuwa.

As for the Torah, Moses prays for the one who God will send to relief the knot on his tongue, the reaction of God that he has Aaron and get's upset with Moses because Moses was looking too far down the future for this, while, he has Aaron and should strive that people be ready and have hope, that Aaron relieves the knot on his tongue instead.

The Quran although doesn't mention Moses prayer, that is the implicit nature of Quran, it paraphrase the prayer of Moses' with Aaron many ways, that is obviously proven by the fact that the knot to be relieved by the one who God will send in the future to the whole world, is not relieving a physical knot, and the Quran has a whole theme about the prayer of Moses in regards to Aaron.

This all flowing with regards to Ishmael and the Twelve Princes promised in his offspring which suggests Mohammad (s) authority as a King followed by twelve Successors (princes).

Also, in flow of that, the one that is like Moses' has to be a founder, because the successors of Moses' are many and Aaron is already a Prophet and Messenger like Moses' so this is not the meaning, that it's just another Messenger, but that there will be a founder followed by twelve Successors as well.

And the word tribe in Torah is like the word Asbat in Arabic, it can mean tribe or it can mean a split from a body of water like a river and the Quran alludes that this was one of the Tahreef occurred by constantly reminding of the miracle of splitting twelve springs by Moses staff which suggests that means verses like the doors and gates to heaven having the names of the Tribes of Israel, can mean the river splits and be referring to the twelve successors who are doors to heaven.....

In Arabic Asbat also means branches, but more on the theme of tree branches, but parable wise can mean a tribe because a tribe is like branch linking back to a root.

But in Quran for sure Asbat is used to denote the branches of the tree of guidance and Prophethood. This is also emphasized by the authentic Sunni hadith "God loves Hussain and loves who loves Hussain, indeed Hussain is one of the asbat (branches)" - Mohammad (s).

Also the Gospels talk about the position of Jesus true, but you suppose to keep in mind he is just a star of guidance from the family of David/Aaron/Moses and there is many morning stars of guidance who had this position and he is showing the central purpose of the previous of revelations were meant so we hold to the leader of guidance who is the spirit from God and holy spirit and word of light brought to life.

It's said in a way, that while Jesus' is leaving, it has to be that Elijah came back and the reason for it (who was also witnessed to be seen by many in beginning of Jesus' mission) and that implies that someone like them (Elijah) was there before Jesus who was John because there has to be a guide, and so when he talks about the comforter to come, it's obvious he is saying I go now but someone my position will come in the open again, prepare for it.

But the question arises what happens between then and now, and so he talks about the holy spirit being sent till then, another comforter who will not be sent by God but be there till the other comforter talked about is sent.

The one who God continues to channel his light and holy power through was Elijah and the one predicted to be sent is obviously Mohamad (s).

This is vividly clear for me. And may God bless all the Messengers and Prophets and chosen ladies and guides he has chosen from Adam till now.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I don't know. As I've already mentioned we're dealing with sparse oral tradition recorded in different forms at different times by anonymous authors narrative them.
Some people argue the Paraclete (mentioned in John 14), which I like the idea of but don't find sufficient enough. But the Qur'an does corroborate with such a theory - given verses like Surah 16:102 and Surah 26:192-195, etc which denote an identical concept to the Paraclete in reference to the revelation of the Qur'an itself via Angel Gabriel.

I already know far enough of the history of NT manuscripts to make such a statement of "removed it", when in the case of the NT manuscripts there is more of the tendency of replacing or adding words and sections, rather than explicitly removing things of such a nature.
The biographies of Jesus in the NT are as I've said, passed down orally so on the basis of that and of the sectarian aspect rooted in the writing of these biographies (Matthew, Luke and John especially), we can ascertain that the writers included what they thought was necessary to their narrative and left out which didn't work for their intentions (keeping in mind that much of these biographies originally serve quite a liturgical basis in their practical use).
The God in Scriptures, when He says "Be", "it happens". Even if scriptures were written by unknown people, still, God could have planned it, to happen. Unless, one thinks, God did not want the prophecies about Muhammad be written in Gospels. If this is not still logical, God could prolong Jesus stay on earth, until He Writes His Book with His own hand, so, there were no excuses for anyone today!
Is not God the All Powerful? Is not God who gives life, and death, and has power over all things? At least, these are well establishes in Quran, and Bible.


If indeed Jesus was sent by God, the All-knowing creator, the Omnipotent, and If Muhammad was indeed sent by the same God, and God wanted Jesus to convey the message about coming of a future Messenger (Muhammad) to Christian's, does it make sense that somehow this prophecy was removed by Christian's or was not written the way God, the Omnipotent wanted?
No, it does not make sense, unless you say, God did not want to protect Bible, or He was no capable of protecting the Bible, which still does not make sense. Does it? Who protected Quran? Were it Muslims? Or was it God? How can it make sense, that same God, did not protect Gospel? He was unable? Or He did not want to? Why not?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
1. Does Quran claim that Muhammad was prophesied in Injil and Torah?

2. Why should the Muslims (Those who follow the Messenger), be concerned with finding the Messenger (Muhammad), in Gospel and Torah, as following verse says:

"Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet, the Ummi whom they find mentioned in the Torah and the Gospel which are with them. He enjoins on them good and forbids them evil and makes lawful for them the good things and forbids them the bad things and remove from them their burdens and shackles that were upon them. So those who shall believe in him and honour and support him and help him and follow the light that has been sent down with him -- these shall prosper.'" 7:157

3. As a Muslim and follower of Muhammad, do you find Muhammad mentioned in INJIL and Torah? If yes, quote a verse from Injil, and a verse from Torah that you see as Muhammad.

Tell me brother. What does Ummi Nabi mean?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said: How would you expect that to appear in the prophecies?
Do you think that Muhammad would be mentioned by name?

KenS said: something to give an indication. I haven't found anything
I think that all depends upon how you interpret the Bible. I do not thing that Muhammad would be mentioned by name because that is not how scriptures are written. Interpreting scriptures is a test given us by God so God leaves it up to us to figure out what they mean, what certain verses refer to.

But in order to know how Muhammad fulfilled Bible prophecies, we have to look at what is recorded in the Qur'an and what actually happened in history during the days of Muhammad; only after that can we see how all of this points back to the prophecies in the Bible. Otherwise we are shooting in the dark because there is nothing to connect these prophecies unless we see how they were fulfilled.

I believe that Muhammad was referenced in the New Testament, and these are some examples:

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three-score days, clothed in sackcloth.” (Rev. 11:3). These two witnesses are Muhammad the Messenger of God, and ‘Alí, son of Abú Tálib.

In the Qur’án it is said that God addressed Muhammad, the Messenger of God, saying: “We made You a Witness, a Herald of good news, and a Warner”—that is to say, We have established Thee as the witness, the giver of good tidings, and as One bringing the wrath of God. The meaning of “a witness” is one by whose testimony things may be verified. The commands of these two witnesses were to be performed for twelve hundred and sixty days, each day signifying a year. Now, Muhammad was the root, and ‘Alí the branch, like Moses and Joshua. It is said they “are clothed in sackcloth,” meaning that they, apparently, were to be clothed in old raiment, not in new raiment; in other words, in the beginning they would possess no splendor in the eyes of the people, nor would their Cause appear new; for Muhammad’s spiritual Law corresponds to that of Christ in the Gospel, and most of His laws relating to material things correspond to those of the Pentateuch. This is the meaning of the old raiment.

Then it is said: “These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.” (Rev. 11:4). These two souls are likened to olive trees because at that time all lamps were lighted by olive oil. The meaning is two persons from whom that spirit of the wisdom of God, which is the cause of the illumination of the world, appears. These lights of God were to radiate and shine; therefore, they are likened to two candlesticks: the candlestick is the abode of the light, and from it the light shines forth. In the same way the light of guidance would shine and radiate from these illumined souls.

Then it is said: “They are standing before God,” meaning that they are standing in the service of God, and educating the creatures of God, such as the barbarous nomad Arab tribes of the Arabian peninsula, whom they educated in such a way that in those days they reached the highest degree of civilization, and their fame and renown became worldwide.

“And if any man would hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies.” (Rev. 11:5). That is to say, that no one would be able to withstand them, that if a person wished to belittle their teachings and their law, he would be surrounded and exterminated by this same law which proceedeth out of their mouth; and everyone who attempted to injure, to antagonize and to hate them would be destroyed by a command which would come out of their mouth. And thus it happened: all their enemies were vanquished, put to flight and annihilated. In this most evident way God assisted them.

Afterward it is said: “These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy,” (Rev. 11:6) meaning that in that cycle they would be like kings. The law and teachings of Muhammad, and the explanations and commentaries of ‘Alí, are a heavenly bounty; if they wish to give this bounty, they have power to do so. If they do not wish it, the rain will not fall: in this connection rain stands for bounty.

Then it is said: “They have power over water to turn it to blood,” (Rev. 11:6) meaning that the prophethood of Muhammad was the same as that of Moses, and that the power of ‘Alí was the same as that of Joshua: if they wished, they could turn the water of the Nile into blood, so far as the Egyptians and those who denied them were concerned—that is to say, that that which was the cause of their life, through their ignorance and pride, became the cause of their death. So the kingdom, wealth and power of Pharaoh and his people, which were the causes of the life of the nation, became, through their opposition, denial and pride, the cause of death, destruction, dispersion, degradation and poverty. Hence these two witnesses have power to destroy the nations.

Then it is said: “And smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will,” (Rev. 11:6) meaning that they also would have the power and the material force necessary to educate the wicked and those who are oppressors and tyrants, for to these two witnesses God granted both outward and inward power, that they might educate and correct the ferocious, bloodthirsty, tyrannical nomad Arabs, who were like beasts of prey.

“And when they shall have finished their testimony” (Rev. 11:7) means when they should have performed that which they are commanded, and should have delivered the divine message, promoting the Law of God and propagating the heavenly teachings, to the intent that the signs of spiritual life might be manifest in souls, and the light of the virtues of the world of humanity might shine forth, until complete development should be brought about among the nomad tribes.

“The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them”: (Rev. 11:7). This beast means the Umayyads who attacked them from the pit of error, and who rose against the religion of Muhammad and against the reality of ‘Alí—in other words, the love of God.”


Some Answered Questions, pp. 48-51
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Tell me brother. What does Ummi Nabi mean?
Good question, most people understand it as someone who was not trained in reading and writing. My take is, Muhammad did not have training in Scriptures of other religions. He was not a learned clergy or priest. He did not belong to the class of learned and scholars men. It is believed, this is a sign that Muhammad got His knowledge through revelations.
Feel free to answer questions in OP.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Muslims would not be desperately trying to find Muhammad in the Scriptures were it not for the Qur'an saying he's mentioned there.

I see the Message of Muhammad is clearly seen in the Bible.

More clear than Jesus, as we now have the ability to look back at what did unfold.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
You had to add "desperately"!

I see the Message of Muhammad is clearly seen in the Bible.

More clear than Jesus, as we now have the ability to look back at what did unfold.

Regards Tony

For a Baha'i it is much joy that it is seen to be so, that Muhammad was clearly foretold.

The issue is that that acceptance also would open the door to the Bab, as the year 1260 or 1844 is a key to seeing all this in the Bible.

Regards Tony
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I see the Message of Muhammad is clearly seen in the Bible.

More clear than Jesus, as we now have the ability to look back at what did unfold.

Regards Tony
So, you mean, the Allah's Prophecies in Gospel and Torah regarding Muhammad are not corrupted? Nothing was added, or removed from the prophecies of Bible, and they are still exactly as how Allah had revealed them?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
So, you mean, the Allah's Prophecies in Gospel and Torah regarding Muhammad are not corrupted? Nothing was added, or removed from the prophecies of Bible, and they are still exactly as how Allah had revealed them?

I can say that what remains is given by Allah and is still a sure confirmation that Muhammad is a Messenger from God and That Jesus foretold humanity about the Message of Muhammad.

I also consider there is no doubt some people may have tried and in some cases succeeded to remove references they do not want to see, but I also see they can not remove what they can not see.

A good exampleof that is removing the Name of Baha'u'llah from Arabic Bibles, but in the end the Glory of God cannot be removed, as you also can not remove Jesus or Muhammad from God's Word.

Regards Tony
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
No proof. Abrahamics go to the grave, Zoroastrians to the tower, others to flames.These are very silly statements, InvestigateTruth. Do you think Allah-Ta'ala is obliged to write His messages in the way you want? Where is His omnipotence? He wrote what came to His mind. You have no respect for Allah. If he wants a change, he can always send any number of His prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations / mahdis to change it. Did he not send Mirza Ghulam Ahmad after he had sent Bahaollah?
Another silly posting. Then why do you claim that your uneducated Iranian preacher is mentioned in Torah, Injil, Qur'an and in the books of other religions? He walked the earth just about 170 years ago.
Another silly post. If even the name is not given, then how does one identify the person. To make a claim on basis of such doubtful and unclear prophecy will be fakery, fraud.
I do not believe all this crap being an atheist, but at least Bhavishya Purana clearly states when exactly the Kalki avatara will be born and where, also the name of his father and mother, and that his spouse will be from Sri Lanka. Trailblazer and others, kindly make sensible post.That definitely proves that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was the Mahdi sent by Allah.
Each one of these points you make deserves its own thread. Feel free to make those as new threads.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Good question, most people understand it as someone who was not trained in reading and writing. My take is, Muhammad did not have training in Scriptures of other religions. He was not a learned clergy or priest. He did not belong to the class of learned and scholars men. It is believed, this is a sign that Muhammad got His knowledge through revelations.
Feel free to answer questions in OP.

Its great that you have your own perspective, which means you don't completely rely on others.

Think of verses 3:20 and 2:78 does it still mean "training in scripture of other religions, not learned Clery or priest etc,"?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Well, I am sorry. Mohammed was a warlord.
Later his armies spread right up into Europe itself.

Hmm. Okay, I think relevance to posts is an absurd concept. I am trying to keep that "relevance" theory out of thoughts.

So tell me. How do you know Muhammed was a warlord? Can you show me historical sources "THAT YOU TRUST" and tell me why you trust with a good explanation "why"?

Cheers. I shall expect your answer.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The God in Scriptures, when He says "Be", "it happens". Even if scriptures were written by unknown people, still, God could have planned it, to happen. Unless, one thinks, God did not want the prophecies about Muhammad be written in Gospels. If this is not still logical, God could prolong Jesus stay on earth, until He Writes His Book with His own hand, so, there were no excuses for anyone today!
Is not God the All Powerful? Is not God who gives life, and death, and has power over all things? At least, these are well establishes in Quran, and Bible.


If indeed Jesus was sent by God, the All-knowing creator, the Omnipotent, and If Muhammad was indeed sent by the same God, and God wanted Jesus to convey the message about coming of a future Messenger (Muhammad) to Christian's, does it make sense that somehow this prophecy was removed by Christian's or was not written the way God, the Omnipotent wanted?
No, it does not make sense, unless you say, God did not want to protect Bible, or He was no capable of protecting the Bible, which still does not make sense. Does it? Who protected Quran? Were it Muslims? Or was it God? How can it make sense, that same God, did not protect Gospel? He was unable? Or He did not want to? Why not?

Why would God want to protect the Bible? Who actually told you that the Bible is to be protected by God and that he must protect it or whatever you have in mind?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why would God want to protect the Bible? Who actually told you that the Bible is to be protected by God and that he must protect it or whatever you have in mind?
If I may interject, I think God would want to protect the Bible because it is God's Testimony. This is what Baha'u'llah wrote to the Muslims:

“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King? Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!”The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 89-90

But after the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation dawned, it was a grave mistake for the Christians to continue clinging to the Gospel, which is exactly what they did and what they still do. :(
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Hmm. Okay, I think relevance to posts is an absurd concept. I am trying to keep that "relevance" theory out of thoughts.

So tell me. How do you know Muhammed was a warlord? Can you show me historical sources "THAT YOU TRUST" and tell me why you trust with a good explanation "why"?

Cheers. I shall expect your answer.

Okay, this is from Wikipedia.

The military career of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, lasted for the final ten years of his life,
from 622 to 632. After he and his small fellowship were pushed out of the holy trading town of
Mecca, controlled by the powerful Quraish tribe, he started intercepting Meccan caravans. After
his first victory in a pitched battle at Badr in 623, his power grew increasingly and he began to
subjugate other tribes through either diplomacy or conquest. In 630 he finally accomplished his
long-term goal of conquering Mecca and the Kaaba. By his death in 632, Muhammad had managed
to unite most of the Arabian Peninsula, laying the foundation for the subsequent Islamic expansion.

Note the words in t his brief paragraph:
military
intercepting
victory
pitched battle
power grew
subjugate
conquest
conquering
expansion

Mohammed was a man of the world, and a violent man at that. I love what Jesus said, "My kingdom is
not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight..."
 
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