Should people be allowed to abuse mice, turn them into drug addicts etc?

[Debater Slayer]

I still say use death row inmates. The US has the largest prison population in the world.

According to my friend, that wouldn't supply enough of a sample size for medical trials, and it makes sense. Even if it somehow worked in the U.S. (ethical concerns aside), that would leave the rest of the world, including countries with fundamentally corrupt judicial systems that convict a lot of innocent people (e.g., Iran and Saudi Arabia), to figure out how to replace animals for medical testing. Imagine if Iran or Saudi Arabia tested on death-row prisoners who were on death row for "crimes" such as blasphemy or political activism.

Also, in my opinion, that would imply death-row prisoners were less human than the rest of the population, since you'd be violating their bodily autonomy just because they were prisoners. I'm strongly against that notion; dehumanizing prisoners or taking liberty with their rights just because they're prisoners has historically caused a lot of preventable death, torture, and suffering.

 

[Aštra’el]

One mouse outsmarted the snake for three days; at one point it built itself a fort of protection. I took the mouse and made a pet of it; it had earned it something better.

The snake did die from a mouse, but the mouse didn't kill it itself. The place he was getting the mice from started selling ill mice... she had already eaten it by the time he found out.

Of course the snake died. That’s what can happen when someone irresponsibly leaves a rodent inside a snake’s tank for three days. It did not “outsmart the snake”. The snake wasn’t hungry. They can go extended periods without eating.

So, I seriously doubt it was “ill mice”. It was simply an honest beginner’s mistake that many snake owners have made at some point early on. If the snake isn’t hungry, don’t leave the mouse or rat inside the tank with it. The snake can become seriously ill or even die. This happened to my first ball python, and many other naive people went through something similar as well. You live and you learn.

 

[JustGeorge]

Of course the snake died. That’s what can happen when someone irresponsibly leaves a rodent inside a snake’s tank for three days. It did not “outsmart the snake”. The snake wasn’t hungry. They can go extended periods without eating.

So, I seriously doubt it was “ill mice”. It was simply an honest beginner’s mistake that many snake owners have made at some point early on. If the snake isn’t hungry, don’t leave the mouse or rat inside the tank with it. The snake can become seriously ill or even die. This happened to my first ball python, and many other naive people went through something similar as well. You live and you learn.

The mouse that it did eat didn't sit in there with it. Normally, it got the mice pretty quickly. It was just that one that I 'saved'.

The mice from that source were ill, though. A pet store employee confirmed that. I stopped keeping them as pets at that point because of the illness. Whether or not that's what killed the snake, I don't know for sure. My husband's the snake keeper. I really don't know much about them myself. Beautiful animals, but I find reptiles on a whole difficult to keep.

The snakes he has now eat frozen pinkies or feeder fish. I have noted they can go awhile without anything, though. His king snake doesn't seem to eat much, but the garters have pretty avid appetites.

 

[Heyo]

Baking soda/vinegar/lemon juice/salt type stuff(for cleaning). I've talked to some that made their own soaps, but I'm not sure how to do that.

I would love to do that too.
Main problem is it doesn't store at all. You have to make it then use it. No shelf life.

(Acure is a bathing brand, not cleaning products, my mistake).

The basic receipt is: kill an animal, take the bones and burn them to ashes (pott ashes, that's were potassium got its name from), cook together with the fat (or some other oil), add fragrances, pour in moulds and let dry.
You can also buy basic soap and just add the fragrances.

 

[Heyo]

Mice live a tragic tale as it is , always living their lives in fear, tortured by cats, hated as pests, always running away. They are actually very intelligent creatures.

Then they are hooked on meth at labs, given cancer causing chemicals, endlessly experimented on and injected with all kinds of crazy stuff, separated from their mothers, starved to death, their hands and feet shocked so that they are delivered food or drugs to see how many shocks they will endure for drugs, and countless other tortures forced upon them.

I'm not bothered by a mouse getting killed instantly by a mouse trap if it's in a house. The cruel fate of mice does bother me.

View attachment 55486 The life of a mouse is one of chronic fear and panic, rejection, and hatred as a pest.

It's a tragic tale indeed! They can be quite brilliant and affectionate when loved at a young age and provided for. I used to keep them as pets!

View attachment 55487 View attachment 55488 View attachment 55489 View attachment 55490

I see testing of drugs on animals as a necessary evil. We do have high quality drugs (and that includes drugs for animals) because of animal testing.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The snake did die from a mouse, but the mouse didn't kill it itself. The place he was getting the mice from started selling ill mice... she had already eaten it by the time he found out.

Some animals can't really help it. But some of us can... Occasionally, my cats catch a mouse. Sometimes I can gather it before its too late and take it outside. Other times I get there and its already gone. But, they're just doing what cats do...

A friend's brother tried to work in our slaughterhouse. He was pretty rough around the edges, and definitely did not give off an aura that such things would bother him... but he quit a week in saying "I can't listen to them(the animals) scream. I just can't do it."

I hope the vegetarians of the world can make a dent in things. Two of my three kids are, too, and so is my husband. It isn't as uncommon as it once was.

I think it more people kept mice as pets, they'd see how awesome they are. I'd love to keep them again, but there's just too many cats here for that to be a good idea.

“Our slaughterhouse”?
Y’all had a slaughterhouse?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Mice live a tragic tale as it is , always living their lives in fear, tortured by cats, hated as pests, always running away. They are actually very intelligent creatures.

Ok, but consider, too, that they are also malicious creatures. They defecate everywhere for one purpose: to drive you out of their territory. That's right. They'd kick you out if they were big enough. They'd eat you if you were small enough. I know they're soft and timid, but they are equally as ruthless and cruel. Only hamsters are more evil. Actually hamsters are a lot more evil. A mouse is relatively good compared to a hamster, but mice aren't sweet.

Then they are hooked on meth at labs, given cancer causing chemicals, endlessly experimented on and injected with all kinds of crazy stuff, separated from their mothers, starved to death, their hands and feet shocked so that they are delivered food or drugs to see how many shocks they will endure for drugs, and countless other tortures forced upon them.

I'm not bothered by a mouse getting killed instantly by a mouse trap if it's in a house. The cruel fate of mice does bother me.

The life of a mouse is one of chronic fear and panic, rejection, and hatred as a pest.

I am against sticky traps for catching mice though I am in favor of using sticky traps to catch invertebrates. I view invertebrates as little machines without souls. Mice I view as almost soulless, somewhat similar to lizards. They are slightly more soulful than lizards.

I must beg excuses for the medical stuff. We are not yet able to simulate physiology well enough, and we are running into medical problems which can only be resolved by studying living specimens. Mice are the natural choice. Yes it is an ethical compromise. Do mice deserve it? Yes. They do deserve it, however I do not wish pain upon them. I should not inflict pain, and so I am compromising my values. Its not like they don't deserve it though; and at least we aren't experimenting on a nicer and/or smarter species. Also we probably will one day just use simulations instead of using mice, but right now its not usually possible. We are saving humans from a lot of suffering. Its a compromise.

It's a tragic tale indeed! They can be quite brilliant and affectionate when loved at a young age and provided for. I used to keep them as pets!

Well your pets should not be used for medical experiments. That would be cruel to you, and I don't want to be cruel to you since you are human. I mean in a general sense. Obviously I occasionally desire to do evil, but overall I stop my evil desire and choose not to be cruel to humans. I'm not saying that I have zero evil or never desire to do evil.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

When I listen to scientists of different types get into the mice stuff, that never has sat well with me. Do we really need to torture these animals just to make progress? Then I suppose somewhere in there, comes the whole 'he loves the animal more than the person' accuser crowd.

Well I just don't know anymore. What kind of stuff do we generally need to keep doing with mice, anyway. How many more drugs can they really make. You want a cure for cancer and other stuff? Well, maybe stop polluting? Don't they keep saying that our way of life is feeding that? Well? Are we allowed to change that, or is that permanent?

 

[Secret Chief]

I don't approve of 'experimentation' on mice at all. They suffer... I don't really understand why its okay. If someone did that to a dog or cat, people would likely freak out.

&

@Spiderman

Sorry to enlighten:

"Cats are frequently used for neurological or viral studies. Dogs are usually suited for cardiovascular, dental, and musculoskeletal studies."

- Detailed Discussion of Medical Research and Animals | Animal Legal & Historical Center

 

[Revoltingest]

Mice have fallen out of favor in such grisly research
anyway. The workers get too attached to the cute
little critters. Now they're beginning to perform their
cruel experiments on lawyers. No one gets attached
to those.

 

[Secret Chief]

A friend's brother tried to work in our slaughterhouse. He was pretty rough around the edges, and definitely did not give off an aura that such things would bother him... but he quit a week in saying "I can't listen to them(the animals) scream. I just can't do it."

Mental health problems (specifically PITS: Perpetration-Induced Traumatic Stress) caused by working in a slaughterhouse is a well-documented phenomenon.

- A Call to Action: Psychological Harm in Slaughterhouse Workers

 

[Secret Chief]

I'd like to get to a point where I'm using natural for both of these things.

Easy to do now.
Website listings to check.
There's loads of apps, including ones where you can scan the product in the shop to get the desired info.
Plus labelling - do you have the leaping bunny logo in the US? (Cruelty Free International).

 

[Secret Chief]

The US has the largest prison population in the world.

It has gone up dramaticlly too. Not because of increased criminality but because it is an increasing part of the economy so more workers are required. It's not just China using a slave economy.

 

[Secret Chief]

Wouldn't that give an incentive to put more folk on death row? Not defending animal testing just asking...

It's an incentive to put more people in prison. And that's what's happening.

- US prisoners are exploited slave labor

 

[Secret Chief]

Also the question of even if folks do terrible stuff like murder should they still be experimented on?

Why not, the Nazis did.

 

[Secret Chief]

When I listen to scientists of different types get into the mice stuff, that never has sat well with me. Do we really need to torture these animals just to make progress? Then I suppose somewhere in there, comes the whole 'he loves the animal more than the person' accuser crowd.

Well I just don't know anymore. What kind of stuff do we generally need to keep doing with mice, anyway. How many more drugs can they really make. You want a cure for cancer and other stuff? Well, maybe stop polluting? Don't they keep saying that our way of life is feeding that? Well? Are we allowed to change that, or is that permanent?

Suppose I eat bacon over a long time span and then get colon cancer as a result. If a drug has been developed to cure my cancer that was tested on pigs then that's just karma coming back to bite its oinky ***.

 

[Brickjectivity]

When I listen to scientists of different types get into the mice stuff, that never has sat well with me. Do we really need to torture these animals just to make progress? Then I suppose somewhere in there, comes the whole 'he loves the animal more than the person' accuser crowd.

Well I just don't know anymore. What kind of stuff do we generally need to keep doing with mice, anyway. How many more drugs can they really make. You want a cure for cancer and other stuff? Well, maybe stop polluting? Don't they keep saying that our way of life is feeding that? Well? Are we allowed to change that, or is that permanent?

Have you ever had to live with a mouse infestation? It changes your perspective. Mice are exceedingly dangerous because of their powerful immune systems, carrying many diseases deadly to us. Also, living without mice is killing mice. Many mice are killed to protect you and I. They die all the time, so that we don't die. Otherwise they would surround us, and we would be sickly. Even if you yourself aren't doing the killing, if you live where there are no mice its because they are being killed for you. Your empty home or workplace or automobile or clothes closet is usable and liveable space for you because mice are being killed.

Humans are the natural enemies of mice.

 

[VoidCat]

Why not, the Nazis did.

I hate the idea cuz they are still people. They don't need to be experimented on. I was trying to get at what @Debater Slayer said in post 21 but I didn't know how to word my thoughts so I wrote what I did.

 

[Secret Chief]

I hate the idea cuz they are still people. They don't need to be experimented on. I was trying to get at what @Debater Slayer said in post 24 but I didn't know how to word my thoughts so I wrote what I did.

Post #24 is @Heyo ....?

 

[VoidCat]

Post #24 is @Heyo ....?

Post 21 my bad