Should religion be a learned 'organized' or a self-led spirtual experience?

[Feldurmac]

From my own personal beliefs I find that the problem with most religions come from being too organized. Its somewhat sad to me that many 'believers' in Christianity, for example, will say "Yes, I believe in God and Jesus." You ask: "Why?", They say: "My parents had me go to church as a kid, so that's what I learned."

For many years I rejected both God and Christ, during this time I considered myself agnostic, not really certain as to what I believed. I have sense come up with a much clearer understanding of my own spirtuality and so I define myself as well.. me. I belief in God, I believe in Jesus to an extent, I believe in the era of the nephilim, I belive in many teachings of Zoroaster, I believe in many things from Islamic teachings... I believe in what I believe has been revealed to me through my own life experiences. Therefore I have much in common with Christianity but much that differs.. so I don't assign myself a particular religious faith, I just know I have faith in what I believe.

I'm curious as to how everyone around here feels about organized religion. I know it can lead to a lot of good, but theocracies for example can lead to ultimate tyranny. Should religion be a large-grouped shared experience or a very personal intimate affair? Should it be something that is actively converted or should each person be excepted to find themselves by soul searching for example?

 

[J Bryson]

I don't mean to dodge the question, but it's hard to come up with a one-size-fits-all answer to this one. Certainly, we've all seen the horrors that can be perpetrated by organized religions, and how it can be (to paraphrase Jefferson) a form of tyranny over the minds of people. However, there can be much to be gained from a community of fellow believers, a system of support and mutual aid that can be a strong backup in one's own spiritual quest.

So, like much else in life, it's a mixture of personal taste and exactly how well it fits.

 

[Feldurmac]

I can see your point, certainly. I guess I personally have less a problem with meeting and congregating together to share beliefs, and more a problem with when they get together they all feel they have to think the same, you know? For example, talking with everyone here is in a sense meeting and congregating with others to further my religious experience... but if one member tells me he/she believes in something I can learn from it sure.. but I don't have to believe it.

Whereas alot of churches/temples/etc every member feels they have to believe everything that organization tells them.

Just my two cents about that. Again its all sort of a personal preference.

 

[Heneni]

In the bible, there was no indication that there were special buildings build for the gathering of the christians. They would gather in homes.

Therefore the whole five-fold ministry thing is a blip.

During the time of paul the apostel he established the church at corinth for example. The church was named by its geographical location, not by its doctrine or by its pastor.

While meeting at these houses there was no chief in charge with a lease on the microphone. People would come together in groups and as jesus said...wherever two or three of you are gathered in my name there i am in the midst of them. Thats all you needed...jesus and three people, and you had a church.

Funny he didnt say you need five people together. If church was held in the homes of people there could hardly have been enough indians if for every home church there had to be five chiefs.

Titles are for the feeble minded i say. All these kamakazi apostels, prophets evagelists and self-appointed shephards have taken the way of baal. They profit from the word of god! There are some, in the minority who dont. God bless them, they are an endangered specie.

No, i think its quite ok to not have to have a pastor 'boss' who lords it over the congregation members. Nobody can use their gift of the HS, unless the pastor parts with the all holy microphone. I dont think that jesus intended church to be like that at all.

What it should be like, is people gather around christ, and then as the HS leads they would continue. I think in today's religious catastrophy one is far better off locked safe and sound behind a steel door, and not exposed to the church of the wolverines, in sheepclothing get a kick out of knuckling every dime out of you.

Heneni

 

[whereismynotecard]

I think people should definately be informed about all religions and the possibility of there not being a god rather than having their parents shove one religion down their throat, so they can choose for themselves. I've spoken to people who, when I said I didn't believe in god, acted like I was being completely absurd. I don't know if that one guy even considered that any religion other than his own even existed. Not saying any of you guys are like this, as it seems most of you are very aware of lots of different possibilities, but I do not like it when children are meant to blindly follow some religion without any knowlege of any other possibility until they are so sucked into it that they can no longer think for themselves.

So I think religion should be more self-led than organized. But once you have heard all of the choices and decided, maybe you can get together with others of the same belief if you want to... Just don't do so in a manner that makes fun of other groups.

 

[Feldurmac]

Heneni, though I agree that the intention was not a multi-doniminational religion as Christianity has become today the fact is that is all there now. That being said there are some good churches.. in the small town in which I live there is a humble little church who has a pastor that isn't even a full-time minister (his second job is something in computers... don't know exactly what).. it is my mother's church and where I was married... but I don't attend as organized churches aren't my thing, but I respect the minister himself as a good man.

Though even in small gatherings of only three or so.... the same problem can arise that I have an issue with.. that is that tiny group will feed the same thoughts and actions.. they might end up thinking as whole not as an individual and that is the major issue I have with a learned structured belief system.

Whereismynotecard,

Nothing saddens me more when someone says whether talking about politics or religion the reason why they think the way they do, "That's what my parents were"...

All in all though I think meeting together in an organized fashion can be VERY benificial... just as long as the members of said group remember that they are in fact individual spirits with an individual spiritual path and individual thoughts/feelings. Although I plan to teach my future child (this summer I will be a father) about religion and most likely allow some church functions into my child's life I at the same time plan on being very open with them and allowing them to explore the other realities beyond what Christian faith teaches.

 

[no_spoon]

I think the following:
1- religion should be built on a foundation of spirituality
2- spirituality takes time and guidance to develop (e.g., speaking with other spiritual people, reading books, comparing spiritual schools of thought, going through difficult times, etc.)
3- we have to grow over time in our spirituality and it must incorporate our family, friends and society in general (respect and responsibility for same)
4- for theists God is, of course, a large part of the equation, and so some aspects of the spiritual equation can be mystical
5- organized religion can be a support to some or all of 2 through 4
6- there is a danger that must be avoided with each new human entering into the spiritual journey to think that their experience or thoughts are somehow so new and special, their feelings so deep and true, that their certainty proves they have arrived at truth; in actuality there are many examples where people (including myself) spend years or decades with a simple minded perspective on spirituality or religion, later to realize that a more varied reading list, or talking to someone wiser would have saved them from much silliness (this is true in other areas of human life as well, of course).

 

[Heneni]

Heneni, though I agree that the intention was not a multi-doniminational religion as Christianity has become today the fact is that is all there now. That being said there are some good churches.. in the small town in which I live there is a humble little church who has a pastor that isn't even a full-time minister (his second job is something in computers... don't know exactly what).. it is my mother's church and where I was married... but I don't attend as organized churches aren't my thing, but I respect the minister himself as a good man.

Though even in small gatherings of only three or so.... the same problem can arise that I have an issue with.. that is that tiny group will feed the same thoughts and actions.. they might end up thinking as whole not as an individual and that is the major issue I have with a learned structured belief system.

Nothing saddens me more then anyone whether talking about politics or religion has only one answer for why they think the way they do, "That's what my parents were"...

All in all though I think meeting together in an organized fashion can be VERY benificial... just as long as the members of said group remember that they are in fact individual spirits with an individual spiritual path and individual thoughts/feelings.

I agree with you. My issue is not with every church, but rather with the way church is conducted. Many churches today opperate on a hierarchy of 'leadership'. And this leadership lords it over their subjects, keeping them in submission. There was no hierarchy in the days of paul. Those who are the greatest among you are the servants. As you have said there are people that are still humble enough to actually be servants. Paul called himself a servant.

In my opinion, there is only one head. And that is jesus, who through the HS can lead his people to green pastures. All authority regarding the church belongs to christ. He is the one who delegates that authority. The authority is in effect delegated to people he calls to be servants. Quite a different picture from what we see today.

I believe that when small groups of people gather together, and the HS works through these people, there is less of a danger of cults forming than there is when great crowds gather all hanging on the lips of one man. The HS convicts and leads a person through their spirit. The HS does not contradict himself.

Many times christians are led by the HS to do one thing and the pastor or leader tells them something else. This is the problem. The pastor would in that case be 'assumed' to be more in contact with god than the individual. But god is a personal god. And jesus said it was good that he leaves so that the HS could come, for the very reason that god would be right inside of them. Now god inside of people, with a pastor in wolf clothes on the podium, and christians feeling they have to do as the pastor says will create problems. And i think this is exactly why we have so many religeous groups and doctrines. The sheep have to 'get past the authority of the pastor' to listen to the HS inside of them.

God bless
Heneni

 

[Feldurmac]

I believe that when small groups of people gather together, and the HS works through these people, there is less of a danger of cults forming than there is when great crowds gather all hanging on the lips of one man. The HS convicts and leads a person through their spirit. The HS does not contradict himself.
Many times christians are led by the HS to do one thing and the pastor or leader tells them something else. This is the problem. The pastor would in that case be 'assumed' to be more in contact with god than the individual. But god is a personal god. And jesus said it was good that he leaves so that the HS could come, for the very reason that god would be right inside of them. Now god inside of people, with a pastor in wolf clothes on the podium, and christians feeling they have to do as the pastor says will create problems. And i think this is exactly why we have so many religeous groups and doctrines. The sheep have to 'get past the authority of the pastor' to listen to the HS inside of them.

I agree there should be no head of anything when it comes to the church.. I am not saying I believe in Mormonism (I have a friend who is one but I don't agree with their beliefs at all personally) but I will say one thing I do like is that they have no official minister... of course even when the entire congregation is the 'pastor' there is still the danger that they will require and enforce that all thoughts be on the same line. I guess that my idea of the perfect church is to have a few elder members who provide guidance to the whole based on their experiences but never actually say "No, that's not the right way to believe", but instead serve to challenge your beliefs and help you understand better why you believe them. Then the church sermons would be rotated throughout the congregation and several members would even talk about personal revelations to themselves while cautioning members that this is only something they have found in their spiritual travels and not forcing it as 'canon' only a possiblity.. etc. That way the individual is among equal minds who wish for enlightment but do not hinder individual growth.

Alas there isn't a church or religion exactly like that...

 

[Heneni]

2- spirituality takes time and guidance to develop (e.g., speaking with other spiritual people, reading books, comparing spiritual schools of thought, going through difficult times, etc.)

The last one you have mentioned...'going through difficult times' is probably the best way to put our religion in action. And we dont need to have a church to go through difficult times. LOL...actually some people go through difficult times, because of the chruch, but thats another topic for another thread.

We all need to practise what we learnt, and trust in god is developed over time as we loose trust in ourselves and in everything around us and put it instead in Him. That we cant do for others. We have to carry our own cross, and have the cross do its work in our lives. As i see it our brothers and sisters in christ help us, pray for us, encourage us, but they cannot carry that cross for us. And the work of the cross is for each person individually.

God has to pull every prop we lean on out from under us, or around us, so that all we have to lean on is him. Knowledge puffs up but love builds up. And we are the building of god. God is love. He builds us up, and does not break us down. But he does have to break down that which we rely on, outside of Him. Sometimes when we are surrounded by too many people in leadership positions, they try to rebuild what god is trying to break down. There is an increase in self-help theology in the church today. Ten steps to success...thirteen steps to becoming rich. But the bible does not say we must rely on self-help. Rather self-sacrifice is the answer. That we have to do by ourselves. The journey on the outside is shared with our brothers and sisters, but the journey inside has only you and god.


Heneni

 

[Heneni]

Alas there isn't a church or religion exactly like that...

Never mind...i was having a moment of reading difficulty.

 

[rageoftyrael]

I'll answer your question fairly simply. i believe that people should come to their own conclusions, with a minimum of outside influence.

Now, if you want to try and learn something from someone you respect, more power to you, but try to allow your conscience to be the main factor in what you believe.

Never let someone else tell you that you are wrong. If you think about it, IF god is real, than about half the world is right. If god isn't real, then 99 percent of the world is probably wrong. In which case, you are probably wrong too....

So, really, just believe in what makes sense and dont let others tell you that you are wrong!

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Without organized religion and indoctrination, most people probably wouldn't give religion too much thought.

 

[ChristineES]

I have been thinking about this question since yesterday and I am not any closer to an answer.
I personally only go to Church services for fellowship, I read the Bible and pray all alone. Bible studies in a group usually leave me feeling a bit annoyed- because they skip around too much for my taste. To me, that would be like skipping through the various plays of Shakespeare rather than reading one play- and futile at best.
I am an incredibly shy and introverted person, so I like to go on my own path.

 

[MoonWater]

It's certainly possible to congregate with others and still follow your own spiritual path. Though personally I'm not much of a "congregator". I follow my own spiritual path but whether or not religion should be organized or individual is dependent on, well, the individual, and their own personal needs. And a person isn't limited to one or the other. You can be part of an organized religion and still have your own individual spirituality within it.

 

[logician]

Without organized religion and indoctrination, most people probably wouldn't give religion too much thought.

I believe this is very true, indoctrination of the unpcoming generation is a large part of maintaining a religion.

 

[A-ManESL]

The aim of religion is the recognizition of God in relation to oneself. This is a deeply personal and self consuming realization. So the essence of religion should be self led. But just as a kernel needs a covering, so does the essence of religion need a structure. Hence many religions developed such organized structures with time. This was both to impart a cohesive compactness to their essence and also for the purpose of identity politics. Hence religion has both a soul (understood by self-discovery) and a form (organized religion).

In my opinion, we should be involved both with the organized part of some religion (the form) and also simultaneously increase our sense of religion by self effort (so that we understand the essence). While true understanding would be gained only by self-effort, it would be a mistake to underestimate the importance of the form, which is important by virtue of its relation to the essence.

Religion as a systematic entity, as it emerged in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, is a concept of polemics and apologetics.-Wilfred Cantwell Smith in The Meaning and End of Religion.

 

[lunamoth]

I believe this is very true, indoctrination of the unpcoming generation is a large part of maintaining a religion.

As well as maintaining our ethics and knowledge of math, physics, biology, medicine, how to build a computer, how to plug a PC in and turn it on...

I'd really rather we stop indoctrinating our children in things like boxing, martial arts and the use of guns.

 

[Caladan]

From my own personal beliefs I find that the problem with most religions come from being too organized. Its somewhat sad to me that many 'believers' in Christianity, for example, will say "Yes, I believe in God and Jesus." You ask: "Why?", They say: "My parents had me go to church as a kid, so that's what I learned."

While this may be the case for many people, for many others, religion or tradition is intertwinded with their ethnicity and is more than 'what their parents told them' but a whole essentiality of their identity, which they may happen to cherish, or at least respect, in any case it is an undeniable part of them.

For many years I rejected both God and Christ, during this time I considered myself agnostic, not really certain as to what I believed. I have sense come up with a much clearer understanding of my own spirtuality and so I define myself as well.. me. I belief in God, I believe in Jesus to an extent, I believe in the era of the nephilim, I belive in many teachings of Zoroaster, I believe in many things from Islamic teachings... I believe in what I believe has been revealed to me through my own life experiences. Therefore I have much in common with Christianity but much that differs.. so I don't assign myself a particular religious faith, I just know I have faith in what I believe.

I dont think that being a member of a certain religion is a reason to abandon an empathic recognition of the wisdom and sages of other surrounding cultures, after all, all religions/cultures have been effected by other philosophies and have passed ideas to each other. the strength of a person is to be able to come to terms with the existence of other philosophies.

I'm curious as to how everyone around here feels about organized religion. I know it can lead to a lot of good, but theocracies for example can lead to ultimate tyranny. Should religion be a large-grouped shared experience or a very personal intimate affair? Should it be something that is actively converted or should each person be excepted to find themselves by soul searching for example?

Organized religion is a phenomena with long historical hold on our societies. it simply exists, my personal vision is to see religion become a more cultural experience and a less dogmatic one. personally I dont think that the casual soul searcher necessarily has an edge over most 'regular' believers. many soul searchers take fantastic information as truth, just like many 'regular' believers take theology as truth.
Perhaps the ideal is to have a balanced shared sense of community in the spirit of a faith, and still encourage people to have the intellectual integrity to follow their own healthy individuality.

 

[lunamoth]

Perhaps the ideal is to have a balanced shared sense of community in the spirit of a faith, and still encourage people to have the intellectual integrity to follow their own healthy individuality.

I agree with you and well said. There is a necessary tension between the organized forms of religion and the spiritual conscience of each individual. I think this is a good part of the explanation for the contrasting passages we can see in the Bible or other scriptures that were developed over a long period of time, as people swing between the two poles.

The take home message I get out of it is to accept this tension as necessary for growth and creativity. We learn to surf this wave.