BaronVonKaiser
Member
How can you say that agnosticism is an interpretation of facts? I may be a little biased here, but agnosticism is about questioning everything, about not believing period.
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Should religion be tolerated?
- Thread starter BaronVonKaiser
- Start date
How can you say that agnosticism is an interpretation of facts? I may be a little biased here, but agnosticism is about questioning everything, about not believing period.
BaronVonKaiser
Member
My intention is not to develop a utopian society, or to suggest some sort of alternative viewpoint that will make things better. What I was suggesting is that religion has a lot of downsides and (unless I missed something) no upsides that could not be provided by secularism. So I am asking, why are we continuing to coddle harmful belief systems? Why do we keep telling people, sure go ahead, whatever makes you happy? Where is the line exactly, I always felt that a person should have the freedom to do whatever they wish, so long as it has no undesired effects on anyone other than themselves. And it would seem to me that history is filled with examples right up to present day where religions have crossed that line.
Small disclaimer, I'm speaking passionately about this merely for arguments sake, just looking for a good rebuttal... if there is one.
The problem is this, Mr. BaronVonKaiser, you can't dictate to people what to believe. If you try to make everyone have the same belief, your world would be somewhat like the Twilight Zone. Is that what we want- a bunch of smiling zombies who can't think for themselves?
Facts:
1. If you try to take religion away, religious people will rebel.
2. If you do manage to take religion away, there will be underground religious organizations.
3. And finally, the only way to have total peace is to kill all living creatures on earth.
Facts:
1. If you try to take religion away, religious people will rebel.
2. If you do manage to take religion away, there will be underground religious organizations.
3. And finally, the only way to have total peace is to kill all living creatures on earth.
BaronVonKaiser
Member
I'm not suggesting we take religion away, nor that we make it illegal or anything of the sort. What I am suggesting is a change in attitude, a general concensus that religion is undesireable. For instance, governments no longer offer special concessions for religions, perhaps emergency prefessionals that require certain days of the week off for religious observance either make themselves available for the job same as everyone else or they lose it. Scrap religious references, make companies that will work around religious restrictions an exception rather than a rule. Know what I mean? I'm not saying ban it, just stop encouraging it. This "it's impossible to enforce" argument has come up a few times in this thread, not really waht I was hoping for, I hope this puts an end to it.
Jordan St. Francis
Well-Known Member
Religion has no upsides that can not be provided by secularism, really? The secularization of society belongs to the modern period of history, and there already, today, signs that it will not achieve the triumph once envisioned by the secularist ideology attached to it [though certainly, IMO, it is here to stay] . Why do you think the New Atheists are so vocal? The notion that the world will simply wake up to the light of natural reason seems to have failed. Religious behaviors, both traditional and new, are emerging out of the wood works everywhere. God is not dead nor does religion seem to be dying.
If secular atheism provides everything religion can, then I would consider why it is the case that yoga is being taken up in droves- and no longer by stay at home housewives- while the instructor opens session with the ring of a bell and an inspirational reading from a New Age book. Why was the "Secret" such a success? Why does the religion/ spirituality book shelf at the local Chapters seem to expand every few months?
I think there is clearly something in secularism, as a totalizing ideology, that is failing- and that this is evidenced in the new pieties of the common person.
If secular atheism provides everything religion can, then I would consider why it is the case that yoga is being taken up in droves- and no longer by stay at home housewives- while the instructor opens session with the ring of a bell and an inspirational reading from a New Age book. Why was the "Secret" such a success? Why does the religion/ spirituality book shelf at the local Chapters seem to expand every few months?
I think there is clearly something in secularism, as a totalizing ideology, that is failing- and that this is evidenced in the new pieties of the common person.
trucolorado
New Member
should "such" religion be tolerated? sadly its all too often a phrase that leads to war no matter what side you are on. i think separation is what we should not be tolerating.
BaronVonKaiser
Member
You started off as if you were going to provide some argument, some upside that religion can offer that the secular cannot, but you seem to have gotten caught up in a rant of I think's and seems to's and left out an actual argument. Most of what you wrote seems to be in defense of religion not dying out, but I never said anything about it dying out, the topic is, whether or not it should be tolerated. People doing yoga excersizes is hardly an example of exclusively religious benefits, and neither are increasingly desperate religious authors publishing frequent books on why they refuse to accept the facts that have been laid out for them. If you can find something legitimate though I'd be very interested in hearing it.
Imagine if all religions tolerated each other. Imagine if all peoples tolerated religions. Isn't this a possiblilty. Religion main thought is love of god and love of all. All religions also teach do unto others has you would have them do unto you. Aren't these rules if practiced the best way to live. Who else teaches them. Perhaps the song writers and poets but the masses respond best to religion.
Lets hold them to there own teachings. How can any one who believes in the bible as words of god kill. Isn't a commandment though shall not kill. I don't see an exception. But here is scripture it says if you interpet it this way sure and how do you interpet Though shall not kill written by God on stone in a different manor.
How about all christians, I tell you there are only 2 commandments Love of God above all else and love of your neighbor as yourself. How beautiful the world would be if actually practiced. Where is god, I tell where there are two of you together in worship I am there.
All religious people believe God created everything in the world. How can you destroy any part of Gods creation. You are taught to help people see the light. All people can come to your God. After one try we just write them off as unworthy and condem them. Is that what your God wants. I thought he wanted you to help everyone see and feel his love. If everyone knew of Gods love what a wonderful place it would be.
It is not religion or the religious that need to be tolerated they are worthy it is the improper practice that should not be tolerated.
Peace and love
Lets hold them to there own teachings. How can any one who believes in the bible as words of god kill. Isn't a commandment though shall not kill. I don't see an exception. But here is scripture it says if you interpet it this way sure and how do you interpet Though shall not kill written by God on stone in a different manor.
How about all christians, I tell you there are only 2 commandments Love of God above all else and love of your neighbor as yourself. How beautiful the world would be if actually practiced. Where is god, I tell where there are two of you together in worship I am there.
All religious people believe God created everything in the world. How can you destroy any part of Gods creation. You are taught to help people see the light. All people can come to your God. After one try we just write them off as unworthy and condem them. Is that what your God wants. I thought he wanted you to help everyone see and feel his love. If everyone knew of Gods love what a wonderful place it would be.
It is not religion or the religious that need to be tolerated they are worthy it is the improper practice that should not be tolerated.
Peace and love
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
It's still a conclusion, though.
BaronVonKaiser
Member
2 things here, first, Religions "main thought" is open to debate, but it would seem to have far more a theme of judgement, and servantile lifestiles to avoid it. Hardly seems a loving sort of practice.
Second, regarding how anyone who believes in the bible as words of god kill... I'm sorry but that is laughable, the bible is chalk full of murdering and killing over and over again. god repeatedly killed people as he felt like it, a few individuals here and there, and more often than not cities, or even entire races and cultures. In fact if I remember correctly, god apparently wrote though shalt not kill in stone and then Moses came down from the mountain to find people worshiping a calf and god, "said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour."
There is no value and never could be any value to scripture and God. Because man wrote the scripture though inspiration and mans rules the religions and man make bad decisions and takes wrong actions and always has killed and if we follow your beliefs always will kill. We should just trust is Man because we be better off trusting in Man.
An Atheist does not believe in a God. Lets say he is right. Now knowing there is no God and the world is what it is. Can you awake the entire world and make them all do the right thing and never do anything bad again.
If you chose to pull the death and destruction out of religion won't you do the same without it. Chose to find love. It is Here, there and everywhere. Another Bible quote modified slightly We reap what we sow.
Peace and love
BaronVonKaiser
Member
I would concur completely with your first statement that there is no value in scriptures, I brought it up as a challenge to someone saying true Christians would never kill anyone because of the 'words of god'.
As far as making the whole world do the right thing, I think thats extremely unlikely and I don't think I've ever suggested that it was possible.
And finally, in regards to pulling death and destruction out of religion and doing the same without it. The BIG difference is that religion gives you the ability to commit horrible crimes without guilt, it takes responsibility away from the individual, it also provides a perfect structure in which to bend and manipulate people toward whatever evil end you may have. If you take away religion, people have to face themselves as being the only ones responsible for their actions. It will probably never result in a perfect world, but I think it's a step in the right direction, no?
No criminal can do a crime without justifying it. Yes people use religion to justify bad actions (the nature of man). They also use it to do good. They also use it to cope with life.
Religion is a tool like any other tool can be used wisly and badly. The tool exists and has some very good uses throw it away because some can use for bad.
Nature of man again. Guess what they will just find something else.
Throw aways your hammers all. Someone has killed someone with one. If fact it has happened more than once.
BaronVonKaiser
Member
People keep saying this, and yet STILL no one has come up with a single example of religion providing some benefit that couldn't have been provided without. We all know the evils that religion has aided, but I'm still waiting to hear some good thats come from it.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
There's no evil that couldn't have happened without religion, either. No, not even the Inquisition.
While I am not religious I will try to answer that question. From what I can see belief in God as a protecter, comforter and security for a good life after death is something that religion offers people that secularism cannot. It may not be factual, but if it is believed then it has the same benefit.
I too have been torn by the same thing you are stating. I still haven't reached a conclusion on it. I lean towards tolerance of religions for the reason stated above. Also, I see religion as being made up of people, all kinds of people just like the secular world. All organizations end up having fanatics that do things that most people would never consider doing. It is not something they can control in their memberships. There is always someone that can give any group a bad name.
I, like you, have a hard time accepting there is anything good in teaching children about damnation. I don't have a good answer for that and struggle with it whenever I think of it. So I do understand why you are asking this question. I just don't see that there is a black and white solution.
I am atheist yet see the good of religion. You don't want to believe. This is fine and you are intitled to your beliefs which is why the world is like it is.
Diederick
Active Member
No, I have a problem tolerating it.
There are three points I'd like to make to back up this statement, but before everyone jumps onto me to burn me at the stake, I'd like to say the following: I don't think all religion is bad, religions that do not apply to any of the three following points can be lived by for all I care. What someone wishes to believe is none of my business, it is what people do that concerns me.
First of all, religion poisons the young mind. Why religion tries to ensnare the young child is quite obvious to me: children are much easier to manipulate. The young child is; by nature; programmed to accept information from adults without putting much thought into it himself. Information gathered in the earliest ages doesn't wear easily, especially not when that information is repeatedly confirmed on a regular basis. This is what I call indoctrination, and it deeply disturbs me. Children are the future of this world, and it really hurts me to see them corrupted by religion.
Adults might find some use in religion, to ease their stressed existence, to answer impossible questions and to supply for a social gathering. Children don't need religion to provide them with anything. They are perfectly happy without worrying about eternal damnation or the beginning of the Universe - let alone a fairy godmother that keeps an eye on them 24-7. Because children don't need any of the; as presumed; positive assets of religion, they should be spared the negatives. A parent's conviction that a child that is not circumcised will be a lesser person (in the eye of the Deity), shouldn't be reason enough to allow that parent to mutilate the child's reproductive organs. And that is just one of the many physical corruptions brought onto children by religion. Think of what the idea of hell must do to a child, or even just that of a devil and a god. Suddenly the child is burdened with all these worries, that no child would naturally be bothered with. And imagine what the child goes through when he realizes that he doesn't fit the ideal of the Deity, or imagine a child concluding that he sinned and will have to ask for forgiveness or be damned to eternal hell?
Children hold the future of this world. It is plain criminal in my eyes, to push religion onto your children, just because you happen to have a particular belief. Sure it is uncomfortable for a parent to find out their kid voted Democrat while that parent is a devoted Republican, but don't you think the individual should be left to choose for himself? If a child grows up and feels the need to turn to religion, then so be it. But parents, please, keep your supernatural ideas to yourself and let your child grow up to be the complete individual it was born to be - unhindered by its parent's religious conviction.
Second, religion obstructs fulfilling the potential of the individual. Many religions issue restrictions on our lives. We can't masturbate, we can't have sex with people of the same gender, we can't eat shellfish, we can't eat pork, we can't build statues to other gods, we can't work on Sundays, we can't kill other people, we can't go about in life without praying at least three times a day, we can't start eating until we thanked god, we can't die without being judged, we can't be born without a ceremony of superstition, we can't be rational about the existence of god, we can't just get along, and we sure as hell can't criticize (other people's) religion - without being condemned to eternal suffering after we've died, without being bullied or excommunicated, without being tortured, without being murdered. Religion can be very nasty to individuals, just for saying and acting on what they think.
Not only does religion oppose individualism, it tries to destroy it. In a perfect theocracy, everyone would do exactly as the default religion tells them to do. It would be a nation far worse than any one of communism of fascism. Only under totalitarianism do we see the likes of religion. We are told to stop looking for anything that religion has already provided for, we don't need to keep looking for the beginning of the universe, or the origin of species. It's all there. Let alone philosophizing about ethics, or cultural values - religion has served us with an abundance of fantastic rules and/or guidelines to live by. Someone who is unfortunate enough to find himself in a religion, will be unlikely to open a book concerning evolution, nature physics, astronomy, or any science (any REAL science) and read it truly considering what it says. I know this for a fact, because even under the immense evidence of evolution, or gravity for crying out loud! - people claim those things are "only a theory". Utter nonsense, because: evolution is a fact, gravity is a fact, black holes are a fact, the end of the solar system is a fact, natural diversity of sexuality is a fact, albino's are a fact, the Holocaust is a fact, the Spanish Inquisition is a fact, death is a fact, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. In every religion, there is a fact of reality being repressed. People are missing out on experiencing a fuller realization of what this world is really made of. We will never know everything; and it is perhaps better that we don't; but to ward yourself from scientific facts over a perhaps more comforting fiction, is - please forgive me - rather stupid.
If religion allowed everyone to live a free life and completely explore the boundaries of reality without being inclined to keep some sort of fictional truth in the back of their heads; I wouldn't be writing this. Religion corrupts a person's perception of reality, religious fiction correlates with truth and the placebo function grows out of proportion into something as vile that I honestly consider it the greatest mistake in the history of Man. Needless to say it sickens me to learn that people are actually considering to teach ID in the same place evolution is taught. People who are in religion, build a wall around themselves to protect their placebo - some are aware of this, others are not - this wall obstructs reality from entering where that reality collides with the fiction surrounding the placebo and this wall can expand according to how the wishful thinking inside it grows. Everyone has a personal vision of the world, built up from scratch by all the information the person ever received. Religious people simply belittle themselves by consciously replacing parts of that vision with untruths that might make them feel a little better.
Thirdly, religion degrades the human race. Simply because it can never be up-to-date, it will never be fit for the modern Zeitgeist, it can never comply to current society at large - unless of course that entire society is filled with religionists. Religion requires a certain level of ignorance from the people practising it, because it would fall at the sight of a large enough dose of reality. This ignorance makes it stagnate. It is closed-minded because it is not open for change. The existence of god is not under consideration, same as any established 'facts' coming with the religion are not to be questioned. This is commonly called faith, I call it wishful thinking. Wanting something doesn't make it real, though that is exactly where everyone in religion fails to see what is obvious. This prevents huge amounts of people to think freely, openly and rationally in order to deal with the problems of mankind head on. Instead these people stick their heads in the sand, pretending the world to be different. But that won't do. The world is what it is, we die when die, this solar system is temporal, Man is most likely finite, and there are billions of people who are suffering life instead of enjoying it - the only thing that keeps them away from suicide their natural desire to survive, to solve problems and to help other people.
There are two kinds of people in religion. Those who are conscious about the fact that they are keeping up a charade for their own superficial pleasure, and those that are numb with religion that they actually, wholeheartedly believe it. Among both of these categories, are people who I would consider bad... 'bad' because they harm other people, by indoctrinating them into something that is not true, by condemning them for being who they are, by inciting unjust fear and hatred, by inciting unjust joy and love, and by using violence in the name of keeping their own placebo real for themselves - or because the appendage of the placebo "told me to". This ignorance of what is really going on makes it harder to give what the individual can give, in order to assist in the progress of Mankind.
I am a Humanist, my purpose in life is reducing suffering, increasing pleasure and attempting to increase life sustenance for all human beings. I find religion to be an inapt, insufficient and unsatisfying substitute for reality-based solutions to accomplish those goals. Beyond trying to do what I can to add in the positive momentum toward achieving Humanistic goals, I seek to minimize the negative forces that counter that movement; hence the above negative approach of religion.
Love,
Diederick
---
By the way, concerning whether religion should be tolerated or not: let it be clear, as I stated on the top of this comment, that I don't have a problem with a person's private fantasies. My dislike of religion comes from the people that try to spread their distortion of reality unto other people; especially defenceless children; and so embodying a detrimental force in the progress of this world. People with an individual religion (Deists, I guess) enjoy my respect of the individual.
There are three points I'd like to make to back up this statement, but before everyone jumps onto me to burn me at the stake, I'd like to say the following: I don't think all religion is bad, religions that do not apply to any of the three following points can be lived by for all I care. What someone wishes to believe is none of my business, it is what people do that concerns me.
First of all, religion poisons the young mind. Why religion tries to ensnare the young child is quite obvious to me: children are much easier to manipulate. The young child is; by nature; programmed to accept information from adults without putting much thought into it himself. Information gathered in the earliest ages doesn't wear easily, especially not when that information is repeatedly confirmed on a regular basis. This is what I call indoctrination, and it deeply disturbs me. Children are the future of this world, and it really hurts me to see them corrupted by religion.
Adults might find some use in religion, to ease their stressed existence, to answer impossible questions and to supply for a social gathering. Children don't need religion to provide them with anything. They are perfectly happy without worrying about eternal damnation or the beginning of the Universe - let alone a fairy godmother that keeps an eye on them 24-7. Because children don't need any of the; as presumed; positive assets of religion, they should be spared the negatives. A parent's conviction that a child that is not circumcised will be a lesser person (in the eye of the Deity), shouldn't be reason enough to allow that parent to mutilate the child's reproductive organs. And that is just one of the many physical corruptions brought onto children by religion. Think of what the idea of hell must do to a child, or even just that of a devil and a god. Suddenly the child is burdened with all these worries, that no child would naturally be bothered with. And imagine what the child goes through when he realizes that he doesn't fit the ideal of the Deity, or imagine a child concluding that he sinned and will have to ask for forgiveness or be damned to eternal hell?
Children hold the future of this world. It is plain criminal in my eyes, to push religion onto your children, just because you happen to have a particular belief. Sure it is uncomfortable for a parent to find out their kid voted Democrat while that parent is a devoted Republican, but don't you think the individual should be left to choose for himself? If a child grows up and feels the need to turn to religion, then so be it. But parents, please, keep your supernatural ideas to yourself and let your child grow up to be the complete individual it was born to be - unhindered by its parent's religious conviction.
Second, religion obstructs fulfilling the potential of the individual. Many religions issue restrictions on our lives. We can't masturbate, we can't have sex with people of the same gender, we can't eat shellfish, we can't eat pork, we can't build statues to other gods, we can't work on Sundays, we can't kill other people, we can't go about in life without praying at least three times a day, we can't start eating until we thanked god, we can't die without being judged, we can't be born without a ceremony of superstition, we can't be rational about the existence of god, we can't just get along, and we sure as hell can't criticize (other people's) religion - without being condemned to eternal suffering after we've died, without being bullied or excommunicated, without being tortured, without being murdered. Religion can be very nasty to individuals, just for saying and acting on what they think.
Not only does religion oppose individualism, it tries to destroy it. In a perfect theocracy, everyone would do exactly as the default religion tells them to do. It would be a nation far worse than any one of communism of fascism. Only under totalitarianism do we see the likes of religion. We are told to stop looking for anything that religion has already provided for, we don't need to keep looking for the beginning of the universe, or the origin of species. It's all there. Let alone philosophizing about ethics, or cultural values - religion has served us with an abundance of fantastic rules and/or guidelines to live by. Someone who is unfortunate enough to find himself in a religion, will be unlikely to open a book concerning evolution, nature physics, astronomy, or any science (any REAL science) and read it truly considering what it says. I know this for a fact, because even under the immense evidence of evolution, or gravity for crying out loud! - people claim those things are "only a theory". Utter nonsense, because: evolution is a fact, gravity is a fact, black holes are a fact, the end of the solar system is a fact, natural diversity of sexuality is a fact, albino's are a fact, the Holocaust is a fact, the Spanish Inquisition is a fact, death is a fact, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. In every religion, there is a fact of reality being repressed. People are missing out on experiencing a fuller realization of what this world is really made of. We will never know everything; and it is perhaps better that we don't; but to ward yourself from scientific facts over a perhaps more comforting fiction, is - please forgive me - rather stupid.
If religion allowed everyone to live a free life and completely explore the boundaries of reality without being inclined to keep some sort of fictional truth in the back of their heads; I wouldn't be writing this. Religion corrupts a person's perception of reality, religious fiction correlates with truth and the placebo function grows out of proportion into something as vile that I honestly consider it the greatest mistake in the history of Man. Needless to say it sickens me to learn that people are actually considering to teach ID in the same place evolution is taught. People who are in religion, build a wall around themselves to protect their placebo - some are aware of this, others are not - this wall obstructs reality from entering where that reality collides with the fiction surrounding the placebo and this wall can expand according to how the wishful thinking inside it grows. Everyone has a personal vision of the world, built up from scratch by all the information the person ever received. Religious people simply belittle themselves by consciously replacing parts of that vision with untruths that might make them feel a little better.
Thirdly, religion degrades the human race. Simply because it can never be up-to-date, it will never be fit for the modern Zeitgeist, it can never comply to current society at large - unless of course that entire society is filled with religionists. Religion requires a certain level of ignorance from the people practising it, because it would fall at the sight of a large enough dose of reality. This ignorance makes it stagnate. It is closed-minded because it is not open for change. The existence of god is not under consideration, same as any established 'facts' coming with the religion are not to be questioned. This is commonly called faith, I call it wishful thinking. Wanting something doesn't make it real, though that is exactly where everyone in religion fails to see what is obvious. This prevents huge amounts of people to think freely, openly and rationally in order to deal with the problems of mankind head on. Instead these people stick their heads in the sand, pretending the world to be different. But that won't do. The world is what it is, we die when die, this solar system is temporal, Man is most likely finite, and there are billions of people who are suffering life instead of enjoying it - the only thing that keeps them away from suicide their natural desire to survive, to solve problems and to help other people.
There are two kinds of people in religion. Those who are conscious about the fact that they are keeping up a charade for their own superficial pleasure, and those that are numb with religion that they actually, wholeheartedly believe it. Among both of these categories, are people who I would consider bad... 'bad' because they harm other people, by indoctrinating them into something that is not true, by condemning them for being who they are, by inciting unjust fear and hatred, by inciting unjust joy and love, and by using violence in the name of keeping their own placebo real for themselves - or because the appendage of the placebo "told me to". This ignorance of what is really going on makes it harder to give what the individual can give, in order to assist in the progress of Mankind.
I am a Humanist, my purpose in life is reducing suffering, increasing pleasure and attempting to increase life sustenance for all human beings. I find religion to be an inapt, insufficient and unsatisfying substitute for reality-based solutions to accomplish those goals. Beyond trying to do what I can to add in the positive momentum toward achieving Humanistic goals, I seek to minimize the negative forces that counter that movement; hence the above negative approach of religion.
Love,
Diederick
---
By the way, concerning whether religion should be tolerated or not: let it be clear, as I stated on the top of this comment, that I don't have a problem with a person's private fantasies. My dislike of religion comes from the people that try to spread their distortion of reality unto other people; especially defenceless children; and so embodying a detrimental force in the progress of this world. People with an individual religion (Deists, I guess) enjoy my respect of the individual.
BaronVonKaiser
Member
Well said Diederick!
If it were only the historical genocides and holy wars, if it was just the barriers that the religious put on their own minds that restrict their thoughts, if it was only the debasement and servitude required by these faiths, I dare say I could live and let live. But it is the child abuse that gets me. Both mental and physical, the scarring and brainwashing that people willinginly put their children through, thats the part I can't abide. Any religion that demands the mutilation of a child or that a child be taught to believe those lies should be publicly ridiculed.
If it were only the historical genocides and holy wars, if it was just the barriers that the religious put on their own minds that restrict their thoughts, if it was only the debasement and servitude required by these faiths, I dare say I could live and let live. But it is the child abuse that gets me. Both mental and physical, the scarring and brainwashing that people willinginly put their children through, thats the part I can't abide. Any religion that demands the mutilation of a child or that a child be taught to believe those lies should be publicly ridiculed.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Oh, great. Religion = child abuse. Again.
If you two think religion is child abuse, you've led very sheltered lives, and you belittle everything I and countless other children have endured at the hands of real abusers.