Should socialized health care deny/delay treatment to smokers and the obese?

[Lyndon]

First off, don't misrepresent me. I agreed with you that denying healthcare to smokers and the obese is a nasty idea. But unlike leprosy, emphysema caused by smoking is an entirely self-inflicted condition. No one can claim ignorance about the risks of smoking. Nor can they if they eat an idiotic diet accompanied by a sedentary lifestyle.

Same can be said about red meat, maybe we should persecute red meat eaters the way we do smokers.

 

[Augustus]

Clearly though for society - anyone who is deliberately harming their own health - or knowingly willfully harming their own health - should not be fully entitled to the resosurces of all those who are responsible and conscientious..

East Asians suffer adverse effects to health at a lower BMI than black people for genetic reasons.

To be fair, you would have to have racially based guidelines, otherwise you would be discriminating against different ethnic groups.

But there are also genetic factors within racial groups, so people who make the same lifestyle choices would have different results.

A healthcare system that discriminates against black people, poor people and those with the 'wrong' genetic make up is not something that I see as being ethically acceptable.

The whole rationale behind your logic is that it is 'fair', however clearly it is not.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks...

Lyndon; OH PLEASE - you are definately speaking of a MINORITY of obese people there - the vast majority are obese DIRECTLY because of their LIFESTYLE CHOICES !!

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Obesity/Pages/Causes.aspx

Obesity is generally caused by eating too much and moving too little.

Thats the OPENING STATEMENT - number one cause...It hten goes on to explain about such things as genetics, medical conditions and even medication itself that can also be a primary cause - but it makes it VERY PLAIN that the primary cause is usually and nearly always self inflicted LIFESTYLE CHOICE !!

Augustus;

But there are also genetic factors within racial groups, so people who make the same lifestyle choices would have different results.

Ah yes this is true - but as I said - we each INDIVIDUALLY can see if our lifestyle is to blame for our health - or not....Like I said - I KNOW my smoking for the past 36 years now is MOST LIKELY to cause me health problems - there are obvious symptoms arent there..? so if I smoke cigarettes daily then go on to get the symptoms I can see clearly the cause and affects....Just as - one who consumes 3 or 4 meals a day of "takeaway" unhelathy type food and who then sits about all day doing little physical exertion is likewise going to see symptoms as they pile on the weight and realise the two as being directly linked as cause and affect...Change the LIFESTYLE first - then go seek the help we need - that is the only logical thing to allow..

If I didnt stop smoking first - but went to the doc anyway and said I need healthcare for any breathing or lung problems, need continual help but am unwilling to stop smoking - this would be little more than a pointless and wasted treatment - and I would in affect be directly taking the p&ss wouldnt I..??...using and abusing the system for my own gain at the direct expense of those who are far more deserving...

Similarly - if an obese person whos cause IS a lifestyle choice - were to similarly go the docs with walking or breathing trouble or back pain or anything related TO that lifestyle - yet are unwilling to CHANGE that lifestyle first - then they too are receiving a pointless wasted treatment that would be better spent on someone far more deserving...

 

[Glaurung]

Same can be said about red meat, maybe we should persecute red meat eaters the way we do smokers.

I agree that people are eating far too much meat, but meat in moderation is hardly comparable to smoking. You're being silly.

 

[Lyndon]

The real parasites in our society are marijuana smokers, they mooch off everyone, and have next to njil productivity, they're the ones we should be denying medical care to, after all, they're medical marijuana cures everything, why should we waste our precious health care dollars when they have pot, the miracle cure.

 

[Thanda]

So you believe in a Jesus that only cares about the healthy and says to heck with everyone else???

No, I believe in a Jesus who helps those who help themselves.

 

[Lyndon]

I agree that people are eating far too much meat, but meat in moderation is hardly comparable to smoking. You're being silly.

No, i'm being quite serious, study after study has shown that vegetarians live a healthier and longer life on average, once you start making value judgments of people's life style choices, where do you draw the line.

 

[Lyndon]

No, I believe in a Jesus who helps those who help themselves.

Well that's some kind of Jesus I've never heard of, certainly not the Jesus mentioned in the Bible. Jesus helps everyone, rich or poor, smoker or non, fat or thin. Unless you know some kind of Jesus I don't know about.

 

[Glaurung]

No, i'm being quite serious, study after study has shown that vegetarians live a healthier and longer life on average, once you start making value judgments of people's life style choices, where do you draw the line.

I would believe that, but I suspect the reason isn't vegetarianism per se. In my experience vegetarians tend to be more health conscious overall, thus it's no surprise that they tend on average to live a little longer. But that fact alone doesn't actually prove (if granted) that vegetarianism is inherently healthier. It means that vegetarians are on average healthier. It's an important distinction to make.

I'm not drawing any line, I have stated that everyone is entitled to healthcare. But sophistry aside it doesn't change that if you smoke, eat badly and don't exercise regularly then you're making an uncomfortable bed for yourself. And I have less (not none) sympathy for such cases than for someone who is truly unfortunate.

 

[Lyndon]

I would believe that, but I suspect the reason isn't vegetarianism per se. In my experience vegetarians tend to be more health conscious overall, thus it's no surprise that they tend on average to live a little longer. But that fact alone doesn't actually prove (if granted) that vegetarianism is inherently healthier. It means that vegetarians are on average healthier. It's an important distinction to make.

I'm not drawing any line, I have stated that everyone is entitled to healthcare. But sophistry aside it doesn't change that if you smoke, eat badly and don't exercise regularly then you're making an uncomfortable bed for yourself. And I have less (not none) sympathy for such cases than someone who is truly unfortunate.

The reason vegetarians live longer, and the best study was done on Seventh Day Adventists that neither drink or smoke, but half do eat meat, is that the hormones in meat run havoc with the bodies own hormones, at least that's what I have been taught.

 

[Thanda]

Well that's some kind of Jesus I've never heard of, certainly not the Jesus mentioned in the Bible. Jesus helps everyone, rich or poor, smoker or non, fat or thin. Unless you know some kind of Jesus I don't know about.

The bible does not mention Jesus healing any smoker of lung cancer (for example). And I don't imagine he would. Actions have consequences, right? And we all know smoking has the consequences or decreasing our health, right? And we all have the right to refuse to smoke, right? So at what point do we actually hold people accountable and responsible for their actions? At what point do we allow the natural consequences of people's actions to materialise?

And what is the point of pouring water into a leaking bucket? What is the point of restoring to health, a person who is undermining their own health?

 

[Lyndon]

The bible does not mention Jesus healing any smoker of lung cancer (for example). And I don't imagine he would. Actions have consequences, right? And we all know smoking has the consequences or decreasing our health, right? And we all have the right to refuse to smoke, right? So at what point do we actually hold people accountable and responsible for their actions? At what point do we allow the natural consequences of people's actions to materialise?

And what is the point of pouring water into a leaking bucket? What is the point of restoring to health, a person who is undermining their own health?

You do know they smoked incessantly in Jesus' Palestine, don't you, rose petals for the light weights and hashish for the stoners, in fact its quite likely some of his disciples smoked.

 

[Augustus]

What is the point of restoring to health, a person who is undermining their own health?

Common decency?

 

[Thanda]

Common decency?

Explain common decency and the link between using scarce resources to assist those who are not assisting themselves?

 

[Thanda]

You do know they smoked incessantly in Jesus' Palestine, don't you, rose petals for the light weights and hashish for the stoners, in fact its quite likely some of his disciples smoked.

Okay, so I take it you could think of a time Jesus healed a smoker of lung cancer. That said I believe Jesus would heal someone who used to smoke of lung cancer. What I am objecting to is the idea that he would heal someone who is currently smoking of lung cancer.

 

[Lyndon]

Explain common decency and the link between using scarce resources to assist those who are not assisting themselves?

Like America has the common decency to support mega corporations and trillions of dollars to bail out banks, yet we don't have the common decency to help our poor and disabled, like Jesus did. What we have here in America is a major lack in vision among our leaders, not a lack of resources, we have plenty of resources, problem is we're wasting them on people that don't need them, people like Donald Trump, who relies on the federal Government to let him pay next to no taxes while he rips off all his investors. We have a problem in America and its not a shortage of resources to treat smokers and obese people, its and excess of resources being wasted on millionaires and billionaires IMHO.

 

[Lyndon]

Okay, so I take it you could think of a time Jesus healed a smoker of lung cancer. That said I believe Jesus would heal someone who used to smoke of lung cancer. What I am objecting to is the idea that he would heal someone who is currently smoking of lung cancer.

You, my friend don't know the Jesus I do, of course Jesus would heal someone with lung cancer, he probably did, they did have lung cancer in Palestine, you know.

 

[Augustus]

Explain common decency and the link between using scarce resources to assist those who are not assisting themselves?

Purposely withholding healthcare as a punishment is immoral. Also it punishes not only the smoker but their family and friends who are innocent.

No operation, can't work, lose house, kids life ruined, etc.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Lyndon; Where did the hash rant come from..??...lol...

Actually - it IS quite a miracle plant - very poorly misunderstood - especially its affects and results regarding ones societal "productivity" or ones capability...

You Im afraid know nothing at all about what you speak - clearly not speaking from experiences are you..??..It may suprise you - but Iam CONSTANTLY stoned smoke as often as I like whenever I like all day every day....Run my own business - head of a prosperous socially secure family - on the outside perfectly normal regular guy no problems at all and you would never even know I was stoned unless I told you or you saw me smoke directly...Many MANY friends all in similar poitiions and its been my lifestlyle for lets see now - oooo - thirty eight years - so please - dont try to demonise cannabis so vehemently as clearly you are misinformed and going by what those "leaders" have directed you to think and say....lol...as I - and Christ warned - they can and do often MISLEAD you - this demonisation of hash is one clear example...lol...

 

[Lyndon]

Iv'e been sober for 8 years, never had a happier healthier life, my manic depressive illness in remission because I quit pot, you my friend are too high it would seem from your post to have any idea what sobriety offers!!