Should some atheists take the time to study religion/rituals/magic ect.?

[Theweirdtophat]

Lots of atheists will demand proof, yet they don't even bother to attempt to do what other religious people do, like participating in rituals or ceremonies to see if such religions or magic is true. They just say "Nope nuh uh, it's all fake, because my text book says so and if it's not right in front of my face this very instant, it doesn't exist." It just sounds arrogant, close-minded and depressing to me, to not believe in anything. It's especially rude quite a few consider such beings as imaginary and look up to scientists of the past, when very few of them realize that such scientists were religious whether they were monotheistic, polytheistic, animistic or something else. The scientists like George Washington Carver, Newton and Vinci all had religious backgrounds and practiced magic and mysticism. Why would scientists of today dismiss such things as imaginary yet the scientists they try to emulate have practiced the things they criticize about.

Has it ever occurred to some atheists that maybe there is some truth to it? That there is a life force animating us? Has it ever occurred to them that may such souls are present in all things, or that magic is real. Or with people having near death experiences, seeing bright lights, seeing their families and seeing their body as they move up before they go back into their body. But I guess every single one just made up such experiences for no reason, right? Don't you think an atheist would scratch their head and say hmmm

"Hmmm. Maybe there is some truth to this. Maybe there's a reason why people have spent such time and effort practicing magic or spirituality. Maybe there's a reason scientists practiced such things. Maybe meditations and rituals and words and other things have power. Maybe I should look into it and find out for myself"

What can't be proved can at least be experienced. They want proof but they should know that some things can't be proven. It doesn't make it fantasy because you can't prove it. Maybe if an atheist at least attempted to do what religious people have done it'd make more sense.

I know this because I was atheist. I didn't believe such things either until I looked into it myself and thought "Maybe I shouldn't just dismiss it as if it was all fantasy just because the evidence isn't right in front of me." I felt foolish for dismissing such things when I really had no reason to. I found out myself and knew magic and souls was real. If atheists don't want to take the time to find out themselves, that's their loss, and I feel sorry for them.

 

[LuisDantas]

Most atheists are aware of religion to some degree, often not out of any choice of their own.

You make it sound you do not have much of a natural tendency towards atheism. Or perhaps more specifically, skepticism.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Lots of atheists will demand proof, yet they don't even bother to attempt to do what other religious people do, like participating in rituals or ceremonies to see if such religions or magic is true. They just say "Nope nuh uh, it's all fake, because my text book says so and if it's not right in front of my face this very instant, it doesn't exist."

Please give one example of any atheist, on this forum or elsewhere, saying anything akin to that, or your statement is nothing but a straw man and you should retract it.

It just sounds arrogant, close-minded and depressing to me, to not believe in anything. It's especially rude quite a few consider such beings as imaginary and look up to scientists of the past, when very few of them realize that such scientists were religious whether they were monotheistic, polytheistic, animistic or something else. The scientists like George Washington Carver, Newton and Vinci all had religious backgrounds and practiced magic and mysticism. Why would scientists of today dismiss such things as imaginary yet the scientists they try to emulate have practiced the things they criticize about.

Because not a single one of those great theist and spiritualist scientists ever once provided one shred of evidence of the truth of any kind of spiritual claims. They may have believed it, but they are admired for the breakthroughs they made in spite of their spiritual beliefs.

To quote Tim Minchin:
"Throughout history, every mystery ever solved has turned out to be... Not magic!"

Has it ever occurred to some atheists that maybe there is some truth to it?

Yes. Has it ever occurred to you to speak to atheists directly and get their real opinions before spewing unsubstantiated straw men?

That there is a life force animating us? Has it ever occurred to them that may such souls are present in all things, or that magic is real. Or with people having near death experiences, seeing bright lights, seeing their families and seeing their body as they move up before they go back into their body. But I guess every single one just made up such experiences for no reason, right?

Actually, there are a multitude of other possible explanations for all of those things, none of them involving magic. Have you ever researched them?

Don't you think an atheist would scratch their head and say hmmm

"Hmmm. Maybe there is some truth to this. Maybe there's a reason why people have spent such time and effort practicing magic or spirituality. Maybe there's a reason scientists practiced such things. Maybe meditations and rituals and words and other things have power. Maybe I should look into it and find out for myself"

Don't you think you should stop making snap judgements about what atheists think or how atheists react when you clearly have no idea about either?

What can't be proved can at least be experienced. They want proof but they should know that some things can't be proven.

Actually, the vast majority of atheists don't ask for proof. They ask for evidence. If something can meaningfully be stated to be true, there must be a good reason to assume it is true. I don't see it is unreasonable that when someone presents me with a claim they accept as true that they should also furnish me with the good reasoning behind their judgement.

It doesn't make it fantasy because you can't prove it.

No, what makes it fantasy is the complete and total lack of any evidence of its credibility and the fact that such beliefs are almost always based on faulty, outdated or downright inane reasoning.

Maybe if an atheist at least attempted to do what religious people have done it'd make more sense.

Do you honestly believe no atheists have ever done that? Do you honestly believe no atheists were ever previously religious? Honestly?

I know this because I was atheist. I didn't believe such things either until I looked into it myself and thought "Maybe I shouldn't just dismiss it as if it was all fantasy just because the evidence isn't right in front of me." I felt foolish for dismissing such things when I really had no reason to. I found out myself and knew magic and souls was real. If atheists don't want to take the time to find out themselves, that's their loss, and I feel sorry for them.

Ah, the old "I know all of the generalizations and assumptions about atheists I just made are true because I used to be one" argument.

Firstly, if you were an atheist but you never even considered any view than your own or considered even the possibility that religion may be right, you weren't only a bad atheist but an incredibly intellectually lazy human being. Don't assume that your intellectual laziness must therefore be true of all atheists.

Secondly, if you now know that such things as magic and souls are real, then please furnish me with the evidence that lead you to this conclusion. I would love to believe in magic and souls.

 

[Deidre]

Participating in rituals doesn't make religion...true. Most atheists...were once theists. Maybe you need to do your homework.

 

[Deathbydefault]

A rather large force of atheists base their atheism on the grounds of logic alone.
They may be the type to discuss such things with you.

However, most of the 'show me evidence right now' atheists lean on the side of knowledge.
There is an obvious difference between knowing something and thinking you know something.

If you go to sleep tonight and have a dream, you may think that the dream is real while still experiencing it.
Therefore, you think you know something

Let's say you wake up from that dream moments later, you then recognize that it was a dream and not reality.
How do you know that, you ask? From experience. From tested and repeated results.

So lets transfer that to, say, a God (it doesn't matter which).
You buy into the religion of this God, believe it's apparent teachings.
How do you know this God is real? You don't. You can only think you know.
If you don't have evidence, repeated results, or the like, you don't know any such thing as this God being real.

So, to me anyways, us asking for evidence constantly is to make you realize you don't have any.
To make you realize that you don't know your God exists, you only think you know.

 

[Thief]

A rather large force of atheists base their atheism on the grounds of logic alone.
They may be the type to discuss such things with you.

However, most of the 'show me evidence right now' atheists lean on the side of knowledge.
There is an obvious difference between knowing something and thinking you know something.

If you go to sleep tonight and have a dream, you may think that the dream is real while still experiencing it.
Therefore, you think you know something

Let's say you wake up from that dream moments later, you then recognize that it was a dream and not reality.
How do you know that, you ask? From experience. From tested and repeated results.

So lets transfer that to, say, a God (it doesn't matter which).
You buy into the religion of this God, believe it's apparent teachings.
How do you know this God is real? You don't. You can only think you know.
If you don't have evidence, repeated results, or the like, you don't know any such thing as this God being real.

So, to me anyways, us asking for evidence constantly is to make you realize you don't have any.
To make you realize that you don't know your God exists, you only think you know.

I happen to be 'pro-science'.
I have no religion.
I believe in God.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Participating in rituals doesn't make religion...true. Most atheists...were once theists. Maybe you need to do your homework.

That's just part of it...not all of it. You get a better frame of reference if you are actually part of it because you can see WHY people believe in it. People like to think that all of this was made up for no reason other than for laughs or for control. It became a tool to use to control others but that's not how it started. How do you explain people having visions, near death experience visions, seeing things through meditation ect, what about places where spirits have dwelled in like haunted houses. If there wasn't a sliver of truth in it, you wouldn't hear so much about it if it was all fake. You wouldn't believe at first UNITL you actually attempted to do it yourself. That's why I said you need to experience it, rather than complain and say there is no proof. Take it from someone who used to be an atheist as I think I have some sort of frame of reference. So no. I have done my home work.

 

[dust1n]

I really can't decide if this more condescending to non-religious people, or more hypocritical on the part of religious people. How many religious people seriously entertain the notion that their religion is utterly and completely a sham. Answer: not many. Couldn't possibly be more than the number of non-religious people who have engaged in religious practices at some point in their life.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Please give one example of any atheist, on this forum or elsewhere, saying anything akin to that, or your statement is nothing but a straw man and you should retract it.


Because not a single one of those great theist and spiritualist scientists ever once provided one shred of evidence of the truth of any kind of spiritual claims. They may have believed it, but they are admired for the breakthroughs they made in spite of their spiritual beliefs.

To quote Tim Minchin:
"Throughout history, every mystery ever solved has turned out to be... Not magic!"


Yes. Has it ever occurred to you to speak to atheists directly and get their real opinions before spewing unsubstantiated straw men?


Actually, there are a multitude of other possible explanations for all of those things, none of them involving magic. Have you ever researched them?


Don't you think you should stop making snap judgements about what atheists think or how atheists react when you clearly have no idea about either?


Actually, the vast majority of atheists don't ask for proof. They ask for evidence. If something can meaningfully be stated to be true, there must be a good reason to assume it is true. I don't see it is unreasonable that when someone presents me with a claim they accept as true that they should also furnish me with the good reasoning behind their judgement.


No, what makes it fantasy is the complete and total lack of any evidence of its credibility and the fact that such beliefs are almost always based on faulty, outdated or downright inane reasoning.


Do you honestly believe no atheists have ever done that? Do you honestly believe no atheists were ever previously religious? Honestly?


Ah, the old "I know all of the generalizations and assumptions about atheists I just made are true because I used to be one" argument.

Firstly, if you were an atheist but you never even considered any view than your own or considered even the possibility that religion may be right, you weren't only a bad atheist but an incredibly intellectually lazy human being. Don't assume that your intellectual laziness must therefore be true of all atheists.

Secondly, if you now know that such things as magic and souls are real, then please furnish me with the evidence that lead you to this conclusion. I would love to believe in magic and souls.

If atheists did participate such things and looked this stuff up and actually try it, there probably would be no such thing as an "atheist."

Some people will become atheist to spite their parents if their parents were overly religious and strict. Others were always like that, Maybe you as an atheist, should listen to one who was an atheist and think "Hmm maybe there's a reason he's saying this"

If I didn't think it was true, I wouldn't have posted this. Also people use "straw man" so many times here, it's starting to lose it's real meaning.

 

[Iti oj]

Lots of atheists will demand proof, yet they don't even bother.

bollox

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Why would atheists and scientists dismiss rituals and magic and such things as fantasy when the greatest scientists such study things. How come no one finds it strange at all that scientists, people who study facts in life and teach it to others, mess around with rituals, religions and magic, if there' is no proof of such things being real?

Maybe one could think that perhaps they studied to to get a better grasp of reality. That by focusing on materialism you're only getting half the information and that studying the spirtual side as well gives you a better frame of reference when it comes to science. Life force can actually be applied and has been demonstrated to perform physical means. How do you explain martial artists breaking wood or blocks of ice or stone with their hands, when martial artists gather their energy to perform such a strike?

 

[Koldo]

If atheists did participate such things and looked this stuff up and actually try it, there probably would be no such thing as an "atheist."

Some people will become atheist to spite their parents if their parents were overly religious and strict. Others were always like that, Maybe you as an atheist, should listen to one who was an atheist and think "Hmm maybe there's a reason he's saying this"

If I didn't think it was true, I wouldn't have posted this. Also people use "straw man" so many times here, it's starting to lose it's real meaning.

Were you a rebellious teenager when you became an atheist ? How did you become an atheist ?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

That's just part of it...not all of it. You get a better frame of reference if you are actually part of it because you can see WHY people believe in it.

But you can see WHY people believe it using basic logic and empathy. I can understand why people believe in religion in the same way as I understand why I believed in Father Christmas, or my imaginary friend, or that I came from Saturn, or Wicca was real. I believed those things at some point in time (mostly in my childhood), and I slowly came to change my mind and adopt a different position. I feel I am capable of understanding WHY someone believes something, but I don't have to agree with it in order to do so. Many of the most prominent atheists I know of were at one point deeply religious, and many others have at least a basic understanding of human psychology or comparative religions. Have you ever considered the possibility that even someone who is intelligent, open-minded and has studied religion (or been deeply religious themselves) may still be an atheist?

People like to think that all of this was made up for no reason other than for laughs or for control.

Which people think that? You keep saying "Atheists always say X" or "Atheists like to think Y", and yet I have repeatedly asked you to provide actual examples of atheists saying any of the things you attribute to them and you have never provided a single one. Please don't make up claims that atheists don't assert.

It became a tool to use to control others but that's not how it started. How do you explain people having visions, near death experience visions, seeing things through meditation ect,

The human brain is capable of a great many things, such as dreams, delusions and schizophrenia. These things have perfectly valid logical explanations. Did you never consider that?

what about places where spirits have dwelled in like haunted houses.

Please name a single example of a haunted house that has been demonstrated to be haunted under reasonable scientific conditions. Or, just name an example of a haunted house and I'll investigate its history myself.

If there wasn't a sliver of truth in it, you wouldn't hear so much about it if it was all fake.

People believe all kinds of things very strongly, and lots of people WANT to believe those things. It doesn't mean there is any truth to them. If there was, then please present evidence. I'm getting tired of this "lots of people believe it, therefore there MUST be some truth to it" logic of yours. If there's some truth to it, then please present it.

You wouldn't believe at first UNITL you actually attempted to do it yourself.

And what about people like me who HAVE "attempted to do it ourselves" and came to the conclusion that it was garbage? Were we just not trying hard enough?

That's why I said you need to experience it, rather than complain and say there is no proof. Take it from someone who used to be an atheist as I think I have some sort of frame of reference. So no. I have done my home work.

Since you honestly think near death experiences, haunted houses and visions can't be explained, you clearly have not "done your homework".

 

[Koldo]

How do you explain martial artists breaking wood or blocks of ice or stone with their hands, when martial artists gather their energy to perform such a strike?

Proper technique.

 

[Deidre]

That's just part of it...not all of it. You get a better frame of reference if you are actually part of it because you can see WHY people believe in it. People like to think that all of this was made up for no reason other than for laughs or for control. It became a tool to use to control others but that's not how it started. How do you explain people having visions, near death experience visions, seeing things through meditation ect, what about places where spirits have dwelled in like haunted houses. If there wasn't a sliver of truth in it, you wouldn't hear so much about it if it was all fake. You wouldn't believe at first UNITL you actually attempted to do it yourself. That's why I said you need to experience it, rather than complain and say there is no proof. Take it from someone who used to be an atheist as I think I have some sort of frame of reference. So no. I have done my home work.

I have experienced it...but facing reality, no matter how tough at times it is...without a fantasy...is far better. Because it's real. Conjuring up gods in my head so I can get through a tough day or feel better about life, shouldn't be something anyone suggests for others to do.

 

[dust1n]

Why would atheists and scientists dismiss rituals and magic and such things as fantasy when the greatest scientists such study things. How come no one finds it strange at all that scientists, people who study facts in life and teach it to others, mess around with rituals, religions and magic, if there' is no proof of such things being real?

Besides there no empirical evidence that "magic" exists. The fact that scientists of the past also did things like alchemy, doesn't change the fact that no combination of various substances is going to produce gold. No scientist is remembered for their magic, they're remembered for their science, because those are the things that actually prove valuable over time, and can be demonstrated by multiple disinterested parties.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

If atheists did participate such things and looked this stuff up and actually try it, there probably would be no such thing as an "atheist."

So let me get this straight: you honestly believe that every single atheist on the planet has never genuinely attempted, or previous been involved in, any spiritual activity of any kind?

You cannot be serious. That's one of the most profoundly arrogant things I've ever read.

Some people will become atheist to spite their parents if their parents were overly religious and strict. Others were always like that, Maybe you as an atheist, should listen to one who was an atheist and think "Hmm maybe there's a reason he's saying this"

And maybe you, as someone who isn't an atheist and clearly was never very good at rationalising or considering other opinions, should listen to the person who IS an atheist and think "Hmm, maybe I shouldn't make assumptions about other people based purely on my own personal experiences and biases and instead try to interact meaningfully with and engage with people who disagree with me rather than patronizing them and accusing them of being ignorant or dishonest".

If I didn't think it was true, I wouldn't have posted this.

And if I didn't think you were wrong, I wouldn't have refuted everything that you said. And if I am wrong, you would be able to debate with those points rather than making these ridiculous claims and sweeping allegations about all atheists and ignoring all the points I made.

Also people use "straw man" so many times here, it's starting to lose it's real meaning.

Then allow me to clarify the meaning for you: A strawman is when, instead of engaging with an argument someone has actually made, you built a poor argument and attribute it to them just so that you can then refute the argument.

You have done that multiple times.

 

[Thana]

Lots of atheists will demand proof, yet they don't even bother to attempt to do what other religious people do, like participating in rituals or ceremonies to see if such religions or magic is true. They just say "Nope nuh uh, it's all fake, because my text book says so and if it's not right in front of my face this very instant, it doesn't exist." It just sounds arrogant, close-minded and depressing to me, to not believe in anything. It's especially rude quite a few consider such beings as imaginary and look up to scientists of the past, when very few of them realize that such scientists were religious whether they were monotheistic, polytheistic, animistic or something else. The scientists like George Washington Carver, Newton and Vinci all had religious backgrounds and practiced magic and mysticism. Why would scientists of today dismiss such things as imaginary yet the scientists they try to emulate have practiced the things they criticize about.

Has it ever occurred to some atheists that maybe there is some truth to it? That there is a life force animating us? Has it ever occurred to them that may such souls are present in all things, or that magic is real. Or with people having near death experiences, seeing bright lights, seeing their families and seeing their body as they move up before they go back into their body. But I guess every single one just made up such experiences for no reason, right? Don't you think an atheist would scratch their head and say hmmm

"Hmmm. Maybe there is some truth to this. Maybe there's a reason why people have spent such time and effort practicing magic or spirituality. Maybe there's a reason scientists practiced such things. Maybe meditations and rituals and words and other things have power. Maybe I should look into it and find out for myself"

What can't be proved can at least be experienced. They want proof but they should know that some things can't be proven. It doesn't make it fantasy because you can't prove it. Maybe if an atheist at least attempted to do what religious people have done it'd make more sense.

I know this because I was atheist. I didn't believe such things either until I looked into it myself and thought "Maybe I shouldn't just dismiss it as if it was all fantasy just because the evidence isn't right in front of me." I felt foolish for dismissing such things when I really had no reason to. I found out myself and knew magic and souls was real. If atheists don't want to take the time to find out themselves, that's their loss, and I feel sorry for them.

They do look into these things, to an extent. But that doesn't really mean much.

We all see the world differently, We all have different morals and we all have different beliefs. The truth is, even if some Atheists had evidence it wouldn't be enough. Just like when some Theists have evidence (For example, YEC's) it's still not enough.

Some people have hardened hearts, that's just how it is.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

But you can see WHY people believe it using basic logic and empathy. I can understand why people believe in religion in the same way as I understand why I believed in Father Christmas, or my imaginary friend, or that I came from Saturn, or Wicca was real. I believed those things at some point in time (mostly in my childhood), and I slowly came to change my mind and adopt a different position. I feel I am capable of understanding WHY someone believes something, but I don't have to agree with it in order to do so. Many of the most prominent atheists I know of were at one point deeply religious, and many others have at least a basic understanding of human psychology or comparative religions. Have you ever considered the possibility that even someone who is intelligent, open-minded and has studied religion (or been deeply religious themselves) may still be an atheist?


Which people think that? You keep saying "Atheists always say X" or "Atheists like to think Y", and yet I have repeatedly asked you to provide actual examples of atheists saying any of the things you attribute to them and you have never provided a single one. Please don't make up claims that atheists don't assert.


The human brain is capable of a great many things, such as dreams, delusions and schizophrenia. These things have perfectly valid logical explanations. Did you never consider that?


Please name a single example of a haunted house that has been demonstrated to be haunted under reasonable scientific conditions. Or, just name an example of a haunted house and I'll investigate its history myself.


People believe all kinds of things very strongly, and lots of people WANT to believe those things. It doesn't mean there is any truth to them. If there was, then please present evidence. I'm getting tired of this "lots of people believe it, therefore there MUST be some truth to it" logic of yours. If there's some truth to it, then please present it.


And what about people like me who HAVE "attempted to do it ourselves" and came to the conclusion that it was garbage? Were we just not trying hard enough?


Since you honestly think near death experiences, haunted houses and visions can't be explained, you clearly have not "done your homework".

Sorry but I have. Those things are talked about by numerous people. Do some people make up stories, of course, but the amount of stories you hear who have face such experiences can't be all fake. You can't see germs, but they affect you don't they? People have said to see spirits as well but it isn't because the brain is being "tricked" into seeing something that's not there. So what if it there, but can't be conceived by normal means like with germs which you'd need a microscope for. And that the Third Eye is the lense one needs to see such things. Read the stories of people who regret going into haunted houses, or when people have near death experiences. Or the people that dream things that end up happening in the future. But I guess every one of them is making it up for no reason? They are all just crazy coincidences? Why would all of them have almost the same description when such a thing happens? No, there is truth in it but because I can't put it down on paper, that makes it false?

All of this thinks this is the stuff of legends but people like to think legends are totally false. Legends are legends, not fiction. Legends means it's talked about and debated. There is some truth, otherwise they wouldn't BE legendary in the first place. This is what got me into finding it out myself and looking up various sources. Some were bogus and some were legit. Depends on who you talk to.

It's just strange that even when you do present the evidence of ki or energy work, lots of them will still dismiss it, saying it comes from an untrustworthy source and that they used smoke and mirrors or something like that, which makes me think that nothing outside of undeniable proof will change their mind. You won't find the proof, you have to try it to GET the proof.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Were you a rebellious teenager when you became an atheist ? How did you become an atheist ?

On the contrary, I wasn't rebellious but my family had doubts of religion. They weren't atheist even though they acted like it sometimes. They believed God was more of an "It" and force that made stuff. I didn't know what I was and sort of developed into an atheist mostly because of my friends. Then I was really more of agnostic because I thought there probably is some truth to it and I shouldn't just dismiss it and say there is no God when I really have no way of supporting my case. I looked at people who practiced religion and magic and thought "You know this seems fake, why would people waste their time on this?" Then I thought "You know maybe they are NOT wasting their time and that there are reasons and explanations to this. I just didn't know the reason for it."

Than you just find out for yourself.