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Should Teachers be Allowed to Mock Creationism?

DarkSun

:eltiT
People in denial of evolution are basically saying that if they have a kid it won't have different traits to its parents. Because that's all evolution says, that offspring will have different traits to their parents, and some traits will ensure they are more likely to survive in the environment they're in. So more desirable/beneficial traits are selected for over time.

If someone wants to refute evolution all they have to do is show that all their kids are exactly identical to themselves and that there is no diversity in a population.

Which would be kind hard, considering all the different races in the world...

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Acim

Revelation all the time
I have no idea what you're on about.
The text book definition of Evolution is "change in allele frequencies over time", which is an observable fact, which means that Evolution is BOTH a Theory (a scientific one) AND a fact.

I'm talking about you splitting hairs. I've consulted three dictionaries and none of them have your exact definition for Evolution. You are not stipulating this to say biological evolution and are, I'm sure, lumping all plausible definitions for evolution into the one you understand to be fact. If we go back to what you originally said on this tangent to where you are now, it has changed (or evolved) into something else.

That creators create something is an observable fact. This is how underwhelming your version of 'fact' is.

No, that is not the same at all.

It is the same. Your refusal to understand doesn't change the fact that creators create.

Again, I have no idea what your point is.
Science is determined through the study of evidence and the testing of hypotheses, not through some kind of popular vote.

Accepted facts are determined via consensus, which is a lot like popular voting. I've already explained this in some detail now twice. If you only want to rely on 'textbook definitions,' for how overly simplistic that is, then one must accept the fact that creators create. That is not determined by popular vote, and is a fact.
 

Blackheart

Active Member
People in denial of evolution are basically saying that if they have a kid it won't have different traits to its parents. Because that's all evolution says, that offspring will have different traits to their parents, and some traits will ensure they are more likely to survive in the environment they're in. So more desirable/beneficial traits are selected for over time.

If someone wants to refute evolution all they have to do is show that all their kids are exactly identical to themselves and that there is no diversity in a population.

Which would be kind hard, considering all the different races in the world...

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cutcaster-photo-100533770-Middle-Eastern-Man-Praying.jpg


Asian%20man%20Short%20hair%20style,%20black.jpg


NSW%20AOTY%20Tim%20Flannery.jpg

Evolution is about different species not different traits. No matter how many children I have they will all be human :shrug:
 

DarkSun

:eltiT
Evolution is about different species not different traits. No matter how many children I have they will all be human :shrug:

You're missing the point. Evolution says NOTHING about humans transforming into fish or vice versa. Evolution says that when an organism (a life-form) reproduces, its off-spring will have slightly different traits to the parents. Organisms with 'desirable' traits will be more likely to survive and pass on their 'good' genes to the next generation.

Evolution is the reason Africans are so dark-skinned. How else do you think they'd have a chance of surviving in the sun? In fact, some African people are said to have actually had Jewish descent genetically. Their genome is consistent with a Jewish lineage, BUT, over generations they have found a way to get more melanin in their skin, to prevent UV damage to DNA and thereby prevent death by cancer.

Evolution happens. If it didn't, how do you explain the different races?
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
I'm talking about you splitting hairs. I've consulted three dictionaries and none of them have your exact definition for Evolution.

Textbook definition.
Not dictionary.

I'm assuming at this point that you have not studied Biology, let alone Evolution, so I'll help you out:

"The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next. Biological evolution may be slight or substantial; it embraces everything from slight changes in the proportion of different alleles within a population (such as those determining blood types) to the successive alterations that led from the earliest protoorganism to snails, bees, giraffes, and dandelions."
- Douglas J. Futuyma in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates 1986

You are not stipulating this to say biological evolution and are, I'm sure, lumping all plausible definitions for evolution into the one you understand to be fact. If we go back to what you originally said on this tangent to where you are now, it has changed (or evolved) into something else.

That creators create something is an observable fact. This is how underwhelming your version of 'fact' is.

As should be obvious, they are not the same at all.
Your statement is akin to saying that swimmers swim or that runners run.
The statement about Evolution is an accurate statement pointing with predictive power towards a specific observable phenomena.
So, not even remotely the same.

It is the same. Your refusal to understand doesn't change the fact that creators create.

Never said they didn't.
The word 'creator' already implies what they do, so the statement has no value.

Accepted facts are determined via consensus, which is a lot like popular voting.

Popularity is irrelevant.
Evidence on the other hand, is not.
If you cannot see the distinction, then there is little I can do for you.

I've already explained this in some detail now twice. If you only want to rely on 'textbook definitions,' for how overly simplistic that is, then one must accept the fact that creators create. That is not determined by popular vote, and is a fact.

Sure.
It is also of absolutely no value, as I've explained above.
 

Tristesse

Well-Known Member
Evolution is about different species not different traits. No matter how many children I have they will all be human :shrug:

Thats true. Unless the environment changes to a degree that different traits need to be adapted for survival. Evolution is not just about species, it's about the modifications within a species as well.
 

Blackheart

Active Member
You're missing the point. Evolution says NOTHING about humans transforming into fish or vice versa. Evolution says that when an organism (a life-form) reproduces, its off-spring will have slightly different traits to the parents. Organisms with 'desirable' traits will be more likely to survive and pass on their 'good' genes to the next generation.

Evolution is the reason Africans are so dark-skinned. How else do you think they'd have a chance of surviving in the sun? In fact, some African people are said to have actually had Jewish descent genetically. Their genome is consistent with a Jewish lineage, BUT, over generations they have found a way to get more melanin in their skin, to prevent UV damage to DNA and thereby prevent death by cancer.

Evolution happens. If it didn't, how do you explain the different races?

Im sorry but no matter how you paint it evolution is about fish turning into humans via a process that has never been proven or witnessed. What your talking about is micro evolution which is a different story altogether and I would rather think that europeans have less melanin because they need to obsorb more Vitamin D. Show me a fish that becomes a human and ill shut my mouth.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
As should be obvious, they are not the same at all.
Your statement is akin to saying that swimmers swim or that runners run.
The statement about Evolution is an accurate statement pointing with predictive power towards a specific observable phenomena.
So, not even remotely the same.

Saying evolution happens is very similar to creators create, swimmers swim and runners run. All of those (including the evolution one) are irrefutable fact. Your textbook definition isn't in that category of being irrefutable. And if you want to put it in there just because there isn't better explanation around (currently), that would not be scientific. That would be philosophical hang-up you have that 'good science' wouldn't go along with you on.

Popularity is irrelevant.
Evidence on the other hand, is not.
If you cannot see the distinction, then there is little I can do for you.

You are drawing a false dichotomy. I'm saying the evidence coupled with scientific consensus makes for popular theory. If we were in another thread, and I were saying something like, "evolution is an unpopular theory" - I'm pretty sure you'd be arguing almost exactly point I'm making.

The part above where you may be (I kinda hope not) insinuating is irrefutable fact is the popular theory, the accepted paradigm in biology. Call that irrefutable and you pretty much just took scientific process / progress off the table.

To avoid further back and forth in endless way, why not update me with what you are saying is irrefutable fact. And just as reminder, irrefutable means "impossible to disprove" which as many scientists believe (I cited 2 popular ones) would mean we are talking about a theory that is non-scientific. So I'd like to hear from you again the portion of Evolution that you understand to be irrefutable.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Im sorry but no matter how you paint it evolution is about fish turning into humans via a process that has never been proven or witnessed. What your talking about is micro evolution which is a different story altogether and I would rather think that europeans have less melanin because they need to obsorb more Vitamin D. Show me a fish that becomes a human and ill shut my mouth.

Evolution does not predict that one species will turn into another in a single generation or life span.

If you knew even one single factual detail about the subject you are attempting to critique, it would probably be that.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
Saying evolution happens is very similar to creators create, swimmers swim and runners run. All of those (including the evolution one) are irrefutable fact. Your textbook definition isn't in that category of being irrefutable. And if you want to put it in there just because there isn't better explanation around (currently), that would not be scientific. That would be philosophical hang-up you have that 'good science' wouldn't go along with you on.

You are drawing a false dichotomy. I'm saying the evidence coupled with scientific consensus makes for popular theory. If we were in another thread, and I were saying something like, "evolution is an unpopular theory" - I'm pretty sure you'd be arguing almost exactly point I'm making.

The part above where you may be (I kinda hope not) insinuating is irrefutable fact is the popular theory, the accepted paradigm in biology. Call that irrefutable and you pretty much just took scientific process / progress off the table.

To avoid further back and forth in endless way, why not update me with what you are saying is irrefutable fact. And just as reminder, irrefutable means "impossible to disprove" which as many scientists believe (I cited 2 popular ones) would mean we are talking about a theory that is non-scientific. So I'd like to hear from you again the portion of Evolution that you understand to be irrefutable.

Do you understand the difference between a Scientific Theory and an Observable Fact? :sarcastic
I've already answered what you ask above, and as I've said three times now, Evolution is BOTH a Scientific Theory AND (by it's textbook definition) an Observable Fact. And it is a fact that is just as irrefutable dropping a rock and watching it fall to the ground. And that Observable and irrefutable Fact is that allele frequencies change over time. They do. We can see it happen.

I never said the Theory is irrefutable. If so it would have to be unfalsifiable, which it most certainly is not. In fact, it would be easy to prove the Theory of Evolution wrong if only you found the right evidence, say, the fossils of modern rabbits in verifiable pre-Cambrian rock. If such fossils abounded we would have to rethink everything we think we know about Evolution and the Theory would be in serious trouble to the point of forcing a paradigm shift (ref. Thomas Kuhn), but it still would not change the fact that allele frequencies change over time.

Do you see the difference?
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
Im sorry but no matter how you paint it evolution is about fish turning into humans via a process that has never been proven or witnessed.

So, that strawman is what YOU have decided that Evolution is about?
Good luck with that.

What your talking about is micro evolution which is a different story altogether and I would rather think that europeans have less melanin because they need to obsorb more Vitamin D.

Micro and macro evolution are nonsense terms.
What Creationists call 'macro' evolution is just the result of 'micro' evolution accumulated over a long enough time.

Show me a fish that becomes a human and ill shut my mouth.

If something like that happened the Theory of Evolution would be in serious trouble because it would mean that the Creationists' magic poofing idea would be more likely.
 

DarkSun

:eltiT
Im sorry but no matter how you paint it evolution is about fish turning into humans via a process that has never been proven or witnessed. What your talking about is micro evolution which is a different story altogether and I would rather think that europeans have less melanin because they need to obsorb more Vitamin D. Show me a fish that becomes a human and ill shut my mouth.

Poe. :shrug:

[youtube]ajDlvILowpM[/youtube]
Fun With Creationist Arguments for God Part II - YouTube
 

IsmailaGodHasHeard

Well-Known Member
As a Christian I do not like it when my beliefs are mocked, but as a Christian I believe that my God gave people freedom of choice. I do, however, believe that teachers who mock Creationism should be required to prove their arguments or shut up.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
As a Christian I do not like it when my beliefs are mocked, but as a Christian I believe that my God gave people freedom of choice. I do, however, believe that teachers who mock Creationism should be required to prove their arguments or shut up.
Mocking is not only a waste of students' time, but it teaches them incivility.
 

DarkSun

:eltiT
As a Christian I do not like it when my beliefs are mocked, but as a Christian I believe that my God gave people freedom of choice. I do, however, believe that teachers who mock Creationism should be required to prove their arguments or shut up.

That which is ascerted without proof may be rejected without proof. Anyone who disagrees and wishes to push the matter shouldn't be in a science classroom.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
As a Christian I do not like it when my beliefs are mocked, but as a Christian I believe that my God gave people freedom of choice.

As explained above, science is not about choosing.
It is about what the evidence shows.

I do, however, believe that teachers who mock Creationism should be required to prove their arguments or shut up.

The thing is, Creationism has no place in a Science classroom, except perhaps as an example of how NOT to do Science, and how people's biases can severely cloud their ability to do honest inquiry.
 
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Acim

Revelation all the time
Do you understand the difference between a Scientific Theory and an Observable Fact?

If I do not, is that reason to mock me?

Evolution is BOTH a Scientific Theory AND (by it's textbook definition) an Observable Fact. And it is a fact that is just as irrefutable dropping a rock and watching it fall to the ground. And that Observable and irrefutable Fact is that allele frequencies change over time. They do. We can see it happen.

How do we observe allele? Is it as simple / accessible as watching a rock fall to ground?
And what might be example of things that don't change over time? (To my mind comes answer of 'speed of light' but not sure if that is a thing.)
Also if we are making any sort of predictions about changes over time, how is this not scientific theory? When does observing allele stop being fact and start being scientific process (theory)?
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
If I do not, is that reason to mock me?

It is, at the very least, a reason to educate you.
Of course, one can only educate people who want to be educated.
I have no problems mocking grown ups who are willfully ignorant
I do not, however, mock children.

There is also the distinction that while people should receive a minimum of respect, the same is not true of ideas.
Ideas should stand or fall on their own merits, and they should be ruthlessly examined, criticised and demolished if they do not hold up to scruteny.

How do we observe allele? Is it as simple / accessible as watching a rock fall to ground?

It is at least not terribly difficult and you need no special education and/or access to fancy equipment to do so.
I'm assuming at this point that you know what alleles are and what they do (if not, let me know and I will be happy to explain), so for instance, the change in frequency in the population of, say, people with blue eyes would constitute a change in allele frequency. It's really that simple.

And what might be example of things that don't change over time? (To my mind comes answer of 'speed of light' but not sure if that is a thing.)

The laws of physics appear to be, if not absolutely constant, then at least very very consistent. As we know from Einstein's work, they change under certain specialised circumstances (but in a predictable way) and they also 'switch' when going to subatomic levels, where Quantum Theory takes over from Relativity.

Also if we are making any sort of predictions about changes over time, how is this not scientific theory? When does observing allele stop being fact and start being scientific process (theory)?

The level of Scientific Theory is the highest level of explanation we have about an aspect of the Universe, be it germs and disease (Germ Theory), atoms and atomic bindings (Atomic Theory), gravity (The Theory of Gravity) or the development and diversity (but not the origin) of living things (The Theory of Evolution).
This means that a Scientific Theory has to take into account all the facts, observations, evidence and laws included in that aspect of our understanding of the Universe. It is, if you like, the box into which all of these things have to fit. And if it doesn't fit we have to either modify the box so that it conforms to the data we have, or change it altogether for a better box.
So when we say that Evolution is both a Theory and a Fact, we mean exactly that, and the same goes for, for instance, Gravity. Both terms apply both to a Scientific Theory AND to an Observable Fact.
 
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