Should the unvaccinated pay full costs if they end up in hospital with COVID?

[PureX]

We go into jobs knowing our duties and contracts. They're not coercion and there's no ultimatum. It's a strict requirement "for" employment not to throw people out if they don't comply to "new" rules that should be optional.

That's just not true, at all. We are constantly being asked to do things that we didn't expect, and yet are now expected to do them because it's our job. And if we don't do that job, they will get someone else who will.

The two does not compare. For example, the government cannot force patients to take treatments if he or she can make medical decisions on their own or someone to speak for them legally. This is a health-issue. People (I hope) are very cautious of their health. They can give up the need to wear a shirt to go into a building. They can bit their lip if taxes are raised or their boss decides workers can no longer use their cell phones in the office.

The purpose of government is to act on behalf of the people it represents as a whole. And especially to act on behalf of the safety and security of us all. So yes, it CAN force us to accept treatment for a contagious disease that endangers the health and safety of everyone. That is, in fact, one of it's prime responsibilities.

I said: Its very sad and the attitude that you must vaccinate or stay at home is just as bad as making them pay for their own health coverage if the doctor diagnosis them with COVID. I don't see it ethical at all. It's a total political issue.

It's a total health and safety issue. YOU'RE the one trying to make it a political issue by insisting that the role of government is not the role of government. But we created government to do things exactly like this: to MAKE everyone comply with the laws and practices that are essential to the health and security of all of us, collectively. And I really don't see why you can't understand this, or why you would object to it. No organized society of humans can function without some kind of collective governance.

Ethical doctors do not force, coerced, or "strongly suggest or be fined" that patients receive treatments. The way this is handled anti/pro vax (one political example) is highly politically charged.

Doctors are not in charge of our collective health and security. We did not elect them to represent us as a collective society. So what individual doctors do or don;t do is not relevant to this issue.

Even RF is a political club of anti/pro vaxxer views. If it were health related (only) there would be no sides. All in this "together."

Selfish idiots abound in ANY collection of humans. That's why RF, your workplace, and every other collection of humans has to have governance, rules, and enforcement, to maintain the welfare and function of the endeavor, and of those involved in it.

 

[Martin]

I like getting jabbed, so there.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's just not true, at all. We are constantly being asked to do things that we didn't expect, and yet are now expected to do them because it's our job. And if we don't do that job, they will get someone else who will.

This is a different context... global health related matters is quite different than maybe a chance of policy or asked to do something job related.

The purpose of government is to act on behalf of the people it represents as a whole. And especially to act on behalf of the safety and security of us all. So yes, it CAN force us to accept treatment for a contagious disease that endangers the health and safety of everyone. That is, in fact, one of it's prime responsibilities.

I disagree with forcing. Some US States already written executive orders to prevent force since each state can, quote on quote, do its own thing. It "can" but so far "they" will not.

It's a total health and safety issue. YOU'RE the one trying to make it a political issue by insisting that the role of government is not the role of government. But we created government to do things exactly like this: to MAKE everyone comply with the laws and practices that are essential to the health and security of all of us, collectively. And I really don't see why you can't understand this, or why you would object to it. No organized society of humans can function without some kind of collective governance.

I am not. Believe me. I am not. Believe as ye will, but politics is heavily involved in this.

Doctors are not in charge of our collective health and security. We did not elect them to represent us as a collective society. So what individual doctors do or don;t do is not relevant to this issue.

However, many provaxxers listen to the doctors so they have some influence.

It should be because each person is different in their health. If someone wants to take the vaccine (medicine, get treatment) et cetera they should consult "his or her" doctor.

Selfish idiots abound in ANY collection of humans. That's why RF, your workplace, and every other collection of humans has to have governance, rules, and enforcement, to maintain the welfare and function of the endeavor, and of those involved in it.

Shrugs. Who would take the vaccine if the unvaccinated are called selfish idiots--that's a political standpoint. Many doctors (in their ethics) do not push or coerce their patients to take treatments, meds, and so forth. They can highly advise but they will not force.

 

[PureX]

This is a different context... global health related matters is quite different than maybe a chance of policy or asked to do something job related.

You want it to be unrelated, but it's not. If I own a grocery store and my customers want my employees to wear masks during a pandemic, I will "make them" wear masks. Just as I will "make them" get vaccinated, if that's what it takes to keep my business running, and my clients and other employees safe. And if you don't agree, you are free to go work somewhere else where their clients and employees don't follow these protocols. This is capitalism, and under capitalism the capital investor (owner/investor) get to make all the decisions, and everyone else has to accept them, or go elsewhere. Just as under a democratic government, the majority gets to make the rules, and the minorities have to go along with it, or go elsewhere.

I disagree with forcing. Some US States already written executive orders to prevent force since each state can, quote on quote, do its own thing. It "can" but so far "they" will not.

And what you are witnessing is how the glorification of selfishness is slowly and inevitably destroying our national cohesion; as it turns everyone against each other, and against the ideals of unity and cooperation. It's the same toxic selfishness that has destroyed countless civilizations in the past.

Believe as ye will, but politics is heavily involved in this.

Politics, poisoned by selfishness, is now being used to poison us against social responsibility. Let's call it what it is.

It should be because each person is different in their health. If someone wants to take the vaccine (medicine, get treatment) et cetera they should consult "his or her" doctor.

But the reality is that we need to achieve a level of mass immunity to stop this thing. And that means those of us who are able, need to get vaccinated. Not just those of us who feel like it. Or agree with it.

 

[SomeRandom]

Opinion: Don’t want the COVID-19 vaccine? Then pay the full cost if you land in the hospital

I thought this was an interesting idea. If someone refuses to get vaccinated, should they pay the full costs of their hospitalization if they get COVID?

(I wonder what that guy has against the Foo Fighters. I fancied a few of their songs, but I never thought they were guilty of crimes against humanity.)

Only in America would this be a thing. I still can’t fathom having to actually pay for medical care, regardless of vaccination status
Though I will agree that not vaccinating is rather dangerous and irresponsible

 

[SomeRandom]

Don't forget that they will acquire a degree of immunity from catching it, so in a fairly short space of time they will reach a level of immunity that may be comparable with vaccinated adults.

If that is so, then we will fairly soon reach a stable state in which all the children and vaccinated adults catch it occasionally and mildly, much as we do today with colds and 'flu', while unvaccinated adults continue to get severely ill or die - as they are doing in Florida, for instance. (That's probably a problem that will take care of itself eventually, one way or another.)

But I agree with your point about variants. If we have endemic virus circulating, there will continue to be new variants. From what I read, it is fairly hard for the virus to generate a variant that totally eludes previous immunity, but we may well find in future that top-up vaccines, tuned to new variants, are periodically required for most or all of the adult population.

I read somewhere that there is a new variant that (likely) eludes our current vaccines. I think it still needs testing to be verified, but that seems to be the medical opinion right now. But it’s not as severe as the Delta strain. So I guess that will be on the agenda for next year’s booster shots, right? That’s how these things work isn’t it?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You want it to be unrelated, but it's not. If I own a grocery store and my customers want my employees to wear masks during a pandemic, I will "make them" wear masks. Just as I will "make them" get vaccinated, if that's what it takes to keep my business running, and my clients and other employees safe. And if you don't agree, you are free to go work somewhere else where their clients and employees don't follow these protocols. This is capitalism, and under capitalism the capital investor (owner/investor) get to make all the decisions, and everyone else has to accept them, or go elsewhere. Just as under a democratic government, the majority gets to make the rules, and the minorities have to go along with it, or go elsewhere.
And what you are witnessing is how the glorification of selfishness is slowly and inevitably destroying our national cohesion; as it turns everyone against each other, and against the ideals of unity and cooperation. It's the same toxic selfishness that has destroyed countless civilizations in the past.
Politics, poisoned by selfishness, is now being used to poison us against social responsibility. Let's call it what it is.
But the reality is that we need to achieve a level of mass immunity to stop this thing. And that means those of us who are able, need to get vaccinated. Not just those of us who feel like it. Or agree with it.

Your other quotes are to AlexanderG. That's not on purpose?

 

[exchemist]

I read somewhere that there is a new variant that (likely) eludes our current vaccines. I think it still needs testing to be verified, but that seems to be the medical opinion right now. But it’s not as severe as the Delta strain. So I guess that will be on the agenda for next year’s booster shots, right? That’s how these things work isn’t it?

Potentially. With flu I understand the WHO has a conference, some time in Q2, to decide which strain of flu is most likely to be prevalent in the N Hemisphere Autumn to come, and then the vaccines for that year are produced with it in mind. I presume eventually that will happen with Covid. But right now it's all very new and not fully coordinated. I don't think we know what each vaccine developer will be working on.

 

[PureX]

Your other quotes are to AlexanderG. That's not on purpose?

Sorry, the copy/paste was stuck on a past discussion.

 

[PureX]

Only in America would this be a thing. I still can’t fathom having to actually pay for medical care, regardless of vaccination status
Though I will agree that not vaccinating is rather dangerous and irresponsible

Be for-warned, our insane selfishness is spreading to other nations like a plague of it's own. Our crazy reaction to the physical pandemic just makes that more evident.

 

[SomeRandom]

Potentially. With flu I understand the WHO has a conference, some time in Q2, to decide which strain of flu is most likely to be prevalent in the N Hemisphere Autumn to come, and then the vaccines for that year are produced with it in mind. I presume eventually that will happen with Covid. But right now it's all very new and not fully coordinated. I don't think we know what each vaccine developer will be working on.

Interesting

 

[SomeRandom]

Be for-warned, our insane selfishness is spreading to other nations like a plague of it's own. Our crazy reaction to the physical pandemic just makes that more evident.

I mean. I won’t pretend that other western nations have the same weird reaction as the US. But we have the luxury of not going bankrupt in hospital. You guys seemingly don’t

 

[PureX]

I mean. I won’t pretend that other western nations have the same weird reaction as the US. But we have the luxury of not going bankrupt in hospital. You guys seemingly don’t

We are a "winner-take-all" culture. And that means the "losers" can go die under a bridge, somewhere; as they deserve. It's very sad but this is what it's come to for a lot of our citizenry. It's 'cultural Darwinism' with everyone competing with everyone else for their survival. A philosophy that reduces human beings to living like dumb animals.

The 'big winners' love it, of course, so as long as they have all the wealth and power, it will not change. And sadly, everyone else just wants to be them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You want it to be unrelated, but it's not. If I own a grocery store and my customers want my employees to wear masks during a pandemic, I will "make them" wear masks. Just as I will "make them" get vaccinated, if that's what it takes to keep my business running, and my clients and other employees safe. And if you don't agree, you are free to go work somewhere else where their clients and employees don't follow these protocols. This is capitalism, and under capitalism the capital investor (owner/investor) get to make all the decisions, and everyone else has to accept them, or go elsewhere. Just as under a democratic government, the majority gets to make the rules, and the minorities have to go along with it, or go elsewhere.

Masks are just fabric over your face. If your employer (outside medical facility) told you you have to take this medicine that a. has not been fully approved by FDA (has not been around a long time for further study), b. has side affects (CDC reported), and c. is being pushed with everything but the kitchen sink, most likely depending on your job you may not want to work there anymore. Masks are nothing but if someone(s) tell you to do something that may or may not affect your health (say children, self, others, and a roof over your head) you'd have a different perspective. I know I would.

That's an ultimatum. We already have homeless people here that people blame them for not "getting a job." Now we are coercing, promoting, and guilt-tripping people to get this vaccine or they will loose their job. While you guys may look at the short-term deaths we also look at the long term affects on the economy. We can't control death but we can control how we can strike a balance.

I don't know anything about capitalism to respond.

And what you are witnessing is how the glorification of selfishness is slowly and inevitably destroying our national cohesion; as it turns everyone against each other, and against the ideals of unity and cooperation. It's the same toxic selfishness that has destroyed countless civilizations in the past.

Actually, the only thing I'm witnessing is online drama. In everyday life the only way I'm "confronted" with it is people wearing masks and possible mandates. As for COVID I don't make a big deal out of that because I go by level of risk not being at a risk.

I agree, it is turning everyone against each other--and businesses, medical care, politicians, etc can be part of this too not just "layman."

Politics, poisoned by selfishness, is now being used to poison us against social responsibility. Let's call it what it is.

Yes, I can see that. It's influencing how we retrieve information about COVID, vaccines, masks, and so forth. Censorship is one big give away.

But the reality is that we need to achieve a level of mass immunity to stop this thing. And that means those of us who are able, need to get vaccinated. Not just those of us who feel like it. Or agree with it.

Where there other alternatives proposed besides herd immunity?

Usually when we figure out what's best for our and others health we have multiple options to chose. If we just have only one and pushed by that its no longer holding the patients (citizens) in mind. It's all politics.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

No. There are a bunch of reasons, practically.

1) We don't do this with smokers, right?
2) People have COVID. There's an element of natural justice already at play. Do we really need to pile on at that point?
3) Hard to establish whether people have actively avoided vaccination, or just haven't been vaccinated yet (at least, it would be here, where vaccination rates and availability are lower)
4) Multiple diagnosis would become problematic.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Whether you’re vaccinated or not and end up in the hospital you should be personally liable, we get insurance for that.
On the other hand, if someone is forcing you to do something the person forcing you should be personally liable for the coercion and any damages, mental or physical they put on you. If you’re forced vaccinated and adverse condition happens the person forcing vaccination personally liable.