Should there be harmony between science and religion?

[Aupmanyav]

Ii don't trust Atheists views

Nothing surprising with all the brain washing and lack of science study.

The Bahá'í Faith supports the ideas of Christianity and the presence of divine incarnation on earth
Therefore it is welcomed by those who had a tradition of Christian faith or non-believers
I believe it is a religion that supports the demolition of true human faith

But insists that Jesus was not the son of God and that Bahaullah has latest teaching and not Jesus.
Does not make any difference. Hindi saying, "Kuen se nikale khai me gire" (To come out of a well and fall into a ditch) - "Out of the frying pan into the fire". A non-believer who accepts Bahai faith was hardly a non-believer.
The last line does not make sense or kindly explain. Is Bahaullah a manifestation of God? True faith or something to be demolished? Of course, I understand your limitations in English language.

 

[Dawnofhope]

One does not need science to be moral, one needs to be responsible to the society, to be civil. One does not need a God for that.

Fundamentally there are two directions we can head towards personally. To be selfless or to be self serving. Some of us are here to uphold community life, others to take advantage of others for their own ends. Its an over simplification of course.

I agree we do not need religion to be moral. We need a commitment to be responsible and do the right thing in life. If we are committed to being the decent humans we all have the capacity to become, the next question concerns religion. Does religion assist us to become better people, make no difference or make us worse. I have decided religion makes me a better person. We all need to read our own reality through this short life and decide what works best for each of us.

You have decided you don't need God in your life. I accept that and have no desire to push my beliefs on anyone.

 

[Dawnofhope]

At this time (in the UK) we are discovering that there has been (and is) a whole bundle of myth and superstition within 'science'. Instrumentation in the medical world is suddenly reported to be under intense scrutiny, many manufacturers have been producing instruments within vehicles (for example) to deceive testing equipment, and there is no part of 'science' that can be auto-trusted.

This a moral problem with humans, not a problem with science.

No....... it's weakness is just materialism, the rejection of Theism is a positive blessing.

To each his own.

I have heard of religions that put most of materialism aside, but that cannot be said of Bahai or any Abrahamic religions.

Bahai and Bahais both seem to be well steeped in Mammon.

All countries with the major religions including Hinduism and Buddhism have embraced development along with the trappings of materialism that comes with it. Its not an exclusively Abrahamic phenomenon.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The Bahá'í Faith supports the ideas of Christianity and the presence of divine incarnation on earth

Therefore it is welcomed by those who had a tradition of Christian faith or non-believers

I believe it is a religion that supports the demolition of true human faith

Not true....but it is a religion that demolishes religious superstition and bigotry

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ah, very well said, Adrian.

 

[Milton Platt]

Welcome all my friends who always enjoy the dialogue with you
If you know how happy I am when I see the different tools and make me this benefit and learn
I thank you from all the depths of my heart
I am grateful to you and I hope you will accept me even if my responses are weak
Forgive me for my weakness in tolerance with me


With science, we can investigate morals
And their impact on the state of health and psychological
You will know the positive situation that everyone accepts
The belief that God is the oldest thing in the universe makes us reassured
The existence of God on earth makes us live tense and afraid
Because it may be a play with liars with colonial political agendas
A scientific question
It is ironic to say that Earth is the center of the universe and that the sun revolves around the planet
But is it logical that God lives on the planet representing the center of the universe?
I am against the idea of claiming that God comes to earth to dwell in. This is a tragedy creating ignorance
The nations will not be pleased to prostrate to a king, from another nation on the pretext that he is God
It makes us not feel Satisfied and Jealousy

The Quran gives a conception of education
23:91. God has never begotten a son, nor is there any god besides Him. Otherwise, each god would have taken away what it has created, and some of them would have gained supremacy over others. Glory be to God, far beyond what they describe.

In the absence of scientific facts
I see the idea of the existence of God in Islam as the most logical
The tools of science are poor here like the poverty of the universe with oxygen
It is normal to emulate our feelings and use other senses

with full respect

I sometimes struggle a bit with your use of the English language, but I think I understand you. Not a complaint. I only know one language, and you probably know at least two. I envy that ability. I enjoy your participation.

I need only comment on your last four lines.

I would suggest that in the absence of scientific facts, the answer would be to admit we do not know, rather than invent a placebo in the form of a god to fill the void left by our ignorance.

 

[oldbadger]

hi dude (^_^)

HI back....

I like your replay about the rejection of Theism is a positive blessing.

Being a Deist I'm kind of inclined to that thinking....

did Atheists believe in blessing
how they understand the word blessing and it Existence
Where does the blessing come from?

Well, I can't speak for the World, but for myself I use the word Blessing as a condition to be glad about.

This means having an intelligent system
Equivalent automatic (Reward the benefactors and punish the wicked with bad luck)

If only the good advanced and the wicked retired..... if only. But there is nothing fair about life so we have to live it by the moment and prepared for all of its ups and downs, and to remain as humbled as possible regardless, imo.

This means that our manufacture is a professional manufacturer with advanced tools in the system

If you refer to the technology giants that have proved themselves to be quite as dishonest as any villains, we must learn to be cautious of everyone, I think.

The Bahá'í Faith supports the ideas of Christianity and the presence of divine incarnation on earth

No Sir. No the Bahai does not. Bahai does not support the ideas of Christianity, which is founded on the physical resurrection of Jesus, Bahai comes nowhere near to this, nor to the Trinity. Bahai says lots but it's mostly Double-Talk, quite as frightening as anything that Orwell wrote about, imo.

Therefore it is welcomed by those who had a tradition of Christian faith or non-believers

Not around here (Canterbury, England). There was a Bahai Assembly here 30 years ago...... all gone now as far as I know. The Bahais I see now are in the graveyards around here.... I saw four just last week.

I believe it is a religion that supports the demolition of true human faith

OK....... I can only say that I don't trust it's claims for its history, its faith, its Bahai World Order, its Law, its voting system, its so called equality or anything else about it. I don't think the World would get what it promises to produce.

 

[oldbadger]

This a moral problem with humans, not a problem with science.

Ah, that kind of science is 'all knowledge', some of it found, most of it hidden. We call science that which we think we have found.

To each his own.

That is not what Bahai policy is all about, is it?
In a Bahai World Order the above tenet would not be acceptible, surely?

All countries with the major religions including Hinduism and Buddhism have embraced development along with the trappings of materialism that comes with it. Its not an exclusively Abrahamic phenomenon.

Johnny Dirty Hands to Teacher...... 'Look Miss! It's them 'n all.... them's got dirty hands 'n' all Miss..... Look!'

 

[LuisDantas]

Science actually has very little dispute terrain with religion proper.

But there is a certain niche of religious practice that is vulnerable to superstition and should ward against it and learn to constantly heal from its harm.

It is very much an internal, self-imposed challenge for religion (and pseudo-religion).

The degree to which it is fulfilled is mainly a function of social aspects. Often economic factors are decisive, but sometimes cultural and doctrinary are the main thing to watch for.

Some doctrines (e.g. Scientology and Kardecism) are essentially impossible to salvage due to their own defining structure, which is too reliant on superstition and denialist wishful thinking. Which is one reason why they do not count as true religions.

Christianity is all over the place. Some denominations, particularly in better socially structured European countries, have been, for lack of a better word, saved. Others are instruments for the spread of bigotry or worse. Many are internally significantly heterogeneous. Although it is not necessarily clear at first glance, it seems to me that the same is essentially true of the Dharmic faiths, as well as of Judaism.

Islaam, of course, is just too politically charged for anyone's good. I don't think it can ever manage to rid itself from the claims that the Qur'an is "scientifically supreme", although many a Muslim tries heroically to just ignore those. Not a high ranking member of Islaam's flaws drawbacks, its incompatibility with scientific thinking is nonetheless solid and probably unremovible.

But generally, religion and even pseudo-religion simply has little reason to get in conflict with science. But when it does, it should look on itself with some determination and check its own goals and means.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That is not what Bahai policy is all about, is it?
In a Bahai World Order the above tenet would not be acceptible, surely?

Why would it be otherwise?

Baha'is issue statement on education and freedom of belief

Theirs is not the purpose, while endeavoring to conduct and perfect the administrative affairs of their Faith, to violate, under any circumstances, the provisions of their country's constitution, much less to allow the machinery of their administration to supersede the government of their respective countries.
Shoghi Effendi 1932

I suppose your concern is should a country or group of countries whose population constitute a Baha'i majority choose to become a Baha'i state?

The Bahá'ís will be called upon to assume the reins of government when they will come to constitute the majority of the population in a given country, and even then their participation in political affairs is bound to be limited in scope unless they obtain a similar majority in some other countries as well. (Shoghi Effendi 19 November 1939)

The Bahá'ís must remain non-partisan in all political affairs. In the distant future, however, when the majority of a country have become Bahá'ís then it will lead to the establishment of a Bahá'í State. (19 April 1941)

This document may be of interest to you.

Theocracy, separation of church and state

As the Universal House of Justice wrote in its letter of 21 July 1968 to the National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of the United States:

It is not our purpose to impose Bahá'í teachings upon others by persuading the powers that be to enact laws enforcing Bahá'í principles, nor to join movements which have such legislation as their aim. The guidance that Bahá'í institutions offer to mankind does not comprise a series of specific answers to current problems, but rather the illumination of an entirely new way of life. Without this way of life the problems are insoluble; with it they will either not arise or, if they arise, can be resolved.

As for the protection of the rights of individuals, ...Shoghi Effendi wrote to the Bahá'ís of Iran,July 1925.....

...the mere fact of disaffection, estrangement, or recantation of belief, can in no wise detract from, or otherwise impinge upon, the legitimate civil rights of individuals in a free society, be it to the most insignificant degree. Were the friends to follow other than this course, it would be tantamount to a reversion on their part, in this century of radiance and light, to the ways and standards of a former age: they would reignite in men's breasts the fire of bigotry and blind fanaticism, cut themselves off from the glorious bestowals of this promised Day of God, and impede the full flow of divine assistance in this wondrous age.

The topic you've raised is of course unrelated to the OP question. If you want to discuss it further, why not start a new thread and tag me?

 

[Looncall]

He who created you gave you legs until you walked without the crutch

Since we can not deny the kindness of the mother
we must not deny God, who gave you generosity
If we go back to the chronology of events
You will find yourself not something previously

Note
We hold the faith of ex-ancestors
This is not a our idea but a belief doctrine inherited from the very old generations
There are human beings who lived in second places and invented religious ideas

Older sources refer to the Existence on faith in God which is the first
Through the investigation tracking system
Imgur: The magic of the Internet
Such as the motion of planets and galaxies

freedom is your choice i don't trust Atheists views

An idea being ancient does not land it credibility: our ancestors knew very much less than we now know.

 

[oldbadger]

The topic you've raised is of course unrelated to the OP question. If you want to discuss it further, why not start a new thread and tag me?

The above was your last sentence in a huge post.
I didn't jump out of the harmony/religion thread... my posts were relevant, I think.

Baha'is issue statement on education and freedom of belief

Theirs is not the purpose, while endeavoring to conduct and perfect the administrative affairs of their Faith, to violate, under any circumstances, the provisions of their country's constitution, much less to allow the machinery of their administration to supersede the government of their respective countries.
Shoghi Effendi 1932

Paul wrote stuff like this in his letters. It's typical political rhetoric, really.
OB Translation...'While we're getting strong we don't want to get under your feet.'

I suppose your concern is should a country or group of countries whose population constitute a Baha'i majority choose to become a Baha'i state?

The Bahá'ís will be called upon to assume the reins of government when they will come to constitute the majority of the population in a given country, and even then their participation in political affairs is bound to be limited in scope unless they obtain a similar majority in some other countries as well. (Shoghi Effendi 19 November 1939)

OB Translation:- When Bahai has a majority then it will govern.
What did you think 'assume the reins of government' means?

The Bahá'ís must remain non-partisan in all political affairs. In the distant future, however, when the majority of a country have become Bahá'ís then it will lead to the establishment of a Bahá'í State.

(19 April 1941)

Yes! A Bahai State, at which point the opportunity for opposition factions to re-establish control, should they recover in support, would be diminished because they would no longer have a vote?

Theocracy, separation of church and state

As the Universal House of Justice wrote in its letter of 21 July 1968 to the National Spiritual Assembly of the Bahá'ís of the United States:

It is not our purpose to impose Bahá'í teachings upon others by persuading the powers that be to enact laws enforcing Bahá'í principles, nor to join movements which have such legislation as their aim. The guidance that Bahá'í institutions offer to mankind does not comprise a series of specific answers to current problems, but rather the illumination of an entirely new way of life. Without this way of life the problems are insoluble; with it they will either not arise or, if they arise, can be resolved.

Some chance, even if ahai wanted to!
That's like promising the giant that you won't irritate it.

As for the protection of the rights of individuals, ...Shoghi Effendi wrote to the Bahá'ís of Iran,July 1925.....

...the mere fact of disaffection, estrangement, or recantation of belief, can in no wise detract from, or otherwise impinge upon, the legitimate civil rights of individuals in a free society, be it to the most insignificant degree. Were the friends to follow other than this course, it would be tantamount to a reversion on their part, in this century of radiance and light, to the ways and standards of a former age: they would reignite in men's breasts the fire of bigotry and blind fanaticism, cut themselves off from the glorious bestowals of this promised Day of God, and impede the full flow of divine assistance in this wondrous age.

Aggressive and inflammatory thoughts veiled in waffly words, right there.
He's talking about Apostasy in in a Shia-Islamic Theocracy, demanding freedom of choice for the Iranian people, and he's purporting that Bahai is radiance and light over the (former) standards of Islam! He's just doing it with political rhetoric. If I was an Iranian Shia Muslim in Iran I know what I would think....

Yeah, let's talk about Harmony of Science with Religion, by all means, because stuff like the above reminds me of Dicken's Micawber........ assuring all of how 'umble and 'armless he was.

 

[j1i]

Ah, very well said, Adrian.

Yesterday I sat with my Hindu friend and said that God is one, and that what happens is that God shows His strength in some of His creatures like prophets then people worship these powers and say that they are Gods.

Here is the error (mistake), we must worship God, and that all the forces (powers) that exist in natures or creatures created by God

These powers have limited abilities and a certain time and disappear
In all religions and manifestations even in Hinduism you will find the disappearance of incarnations and this means that the first incarnation was not a GOD but the stages of time because the creatures have a life of certain time then die and and the powers moves to a new generation as well as evil
finally Points are calculated until the end of the world

Each person will then receive Retirement such as end of service at work
If you work hard you will get a high reward

 

[Dawnofhope]

Aggressive and inflammatory thoughts veiled in waffly words, right there.
He's talking about Apostasy in in a Shia-Islamic Theocracy, demanding freedom of choice for the Iranian people, and he's purporting that Bahai is radiance and light over the (former) standards of Islam! He's just doing it with political rhetoric. If I was an Iranian Shia Muslim in Iran I know what I would think....

Yeah, let's talk about Harmony of Science with Religion, by all means, because stuff like the above reminds me of Dicken's Micawber........ assuring all of how 'umble and 'armless he was.

He's talking about civil liberties and the fundamental right we all have to make choices about what religion we have or having no religion at all.

There's no malevolent intent.

 

[Valjean]

I will abandon something if I am unable to express my self and character and purposes and meanings through it. This holds from choosing (or abandoning) certain style of shoes to a certain worldview, lifestyle or religion.

Is religion, to you, more a lifestyle and worldview, or more like a theory of metaphysics?

 

[oldbadger]

He's talking about civil liberties and the fundamental right we all have to make choices about what religion we have or having no religion at all.

There's no malevolent intent.

Oh please! Just READ IT!

 

[Dawnofhope]

Oh please! Just READ IT!

It was written in response to someone who became a covenant breaker. It was saying we are all free to make our choices. Why would it be a criticism of the government in 1925 when Baha'is don't involve themselves in politics?

 

[oldbadger]

It was written in response to someone who became a covenant breaker. It was saying we are all free to make our choices. Why would it be a criticism of the government in 1925 when Baha'is don't involve themselves in politics?

It was written to all Bahais in Iran concerning the protection of rights of apostates in a free society. All Bahais in Iran were/are seen to be apostates. Bahais did/do not view Iran as a free society.

Bahais have criticised Iranian governments for a very long time.

I was right the first time. Strip away the rhetoric and one can see the truth, methinks.

Oh, and if you are right, then Bahai Covenant Breaker's rights are seriously reduced in a 'free society' so that just does not fit.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yesterday I sat with my Hindu friend and said that God is one, and that what happens is that God shows His strength in some of His creatures like prophets then people worship these powers and say that they are Gods. ..

That is your view based on your ignorance of Hinduism to which I do not agree.
There are many Gods and Goddesses in Hinduism, theist Hindus do not deny any of their Gods or Goddesses. Though they may give preference to any in their personal worship. The other deities do not feel jealous.
After you have done some work for which you had come, you go back to your home. That is what the avataras do. Finish the work in the way they please ('leela') and go back to their abodes.
I am speaking here as a theist Hindu, though Hinduism does not mind even if we deny all the Gods and Goddesses.