Should there be liberty for the intolerant?

[Revoltingest]

There wouldn't technically be any private industry. I envisage a scientific and democratically mandated approach to the implementation and design of algorithms.

Crypto currency is money, and money would undermine the system. Probably.

No private industry....how is that full
blown socialism or communism?

 

[Azrael Antilla]

No private industry....how is that full
blown socialism or communism?

Most industry under my system. (Hence my mention of a paradigm shift earlier). Would necessarily have to be fully automated, robot industry to borrow from Asimov. So there are no workers technically either. People take up volunteering for vocational professions instead. I would also add that many government powers and remits, would be taken over by AI. Especially with regard to economic redistribution.

 

[Azrael Antilla]

Machine Communism. That's what I am naming my futurist baby. Lol. Just need a snazzy symbol a colour scheme a catchy motto and I am set for global domination. Then I will finally be able to obtain a complete set of Sylvanian families, mwahaha...

 

[Revoltingest]

Most industry under my system. (Hence my mention of a paradigm shift earlier). Would necessarily have to be fully automated, robot industry to borrow from Asimov. So there are no workers technically either. People take up volunteering for vocational professions instead. I would also add that many government powers and remits, would be taken over by AI. Especially with regard to economic redistribution.

Whether the governing body that prevents private
economic activity is silicon or carbon based, you're
still describing either socialism or communism.
I prefer more individual liberty.

 

[Azrael Antilla]

Whether the governing body that prevents private
economic activity is silicon or carbon based, you're
still describing either socialism or communism.
I prefer more individual liberty.

Egalitarianism, moderated economicslly by AI. A somewhat different system.

 

[Revoltingest]

Egalitarianism, moderated economicslly by AI. A somewhat different system.

How would your AI system deal with me if I decided
to hire some employees to make & sell widgets?

 

[Azrael Antilla]

I prefer more individual liberty.

Which is exactly what you would get. Liberty from grinding work, freedom to pursue your talents and skills, to study to hobby. You're not chained to the factory or store doing meaningless unvalued work for a pittance.

 

[Azrael Antilla]

How would your AI system deal with me if I decided
to hire some employees to make & sell widgets?

Well. Whenever you produce widgets you obtain credit. If you 'hire' 'employees' (there are no employment contracts) ie ppl volunteer to help you make widgets, they also get credit. This does not get deducted from your credit. Debit is only ever awarded, when you consume a tangible good or service. Like an apple or a holiday in Spain.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well. Whenever you produce widgets you obtain credit. If you 'hire' 'employees' (there are no employment contracts) ie ppl volunteer to help you make widgets, they also get credit. This does not get deducted from your credit. Debit is only ever awarded, when you consume a tangible good or service. Like an apple or a holiday in Spain.

Who decides on the allocation of debits & credits?
How is that different from money?

 

[Secret Chief]

a catchy motto

Rested by the Robots

 

[Azrael Antilla]

Who decides on the allocation of debits & credits?
How is that different from money?

You don't need credits to purchase any goods or services. You can have -10000 on your ledger, and still order food and drink, your electricity won't be cut. Your internet access uninterrupted. You will just be awarded more debits. (There would be some checks on excessive abuse of the system, like bracketing)

Your running score determines your productivity or lack of, socioeconomically.

A man who consumes very few goods, all other things being equal, will have a positive credit rating. If he volunteers or makes widgets to obtain credit.

The system relies on transparency and societal expectation. Self moderation.

 

[Revoltingest]

You don't need credits to purchase any goods or services. You can have -10000 on your ledger, and still order food and drink, your electricity won't be cut. Your internet access uninterrupted. You will just be awarded more debits. (There would be some checks on excessive abuse of the system, like bracketing)

Your running score determines your productivity or lack of, socioeconomically.

A man who consumes very few goods, all other things being equal, will have a positive credit rating. If he volunteers or makes widgets to obtain credit.

The system relies on transparency and societal expectation. Self moderation.

You're describing the function of money.
What's the significant difference?

 

[Azrael Antilla]

You're describing the function of money.
What's the significant difference?

Really? Once again, credits are not used in transactions. You do not need credits to obtain anything whatsoever. They are a quantificaton of your productivity and consumption. Transparent and observable to everyone else. I am not describing a monetary system.

You are awarded credit when you provide goods or services.

You are awarded debit when you consume goods or services.

I don't know how else to explain this.


The idea is you will be put off from running up a huge debit record. Because everyone else will know that you're a leech and a drain.

Others will strive to obtain a higher credit, so they can consume more goods and services, without running up a high debit rating.

Others will simply consume little and produce little.

Once again. You don't need credit to buy anything and debits are not debts.

I am not surprised a free market liberal is struggling with this. With respect.

Currency or money be it fiat or no fiat, is a token of recognised value, that can be exchanged for goods and services. Transactionally. This is not that. This is egalitarianism and collective ownership, with a transparent record for each individuals economic activity.

 

[Revoltingest]

Really? Once again, credits are not used in transactions. You do not need credits to obtain anything whatsoever. They are a quantificaton of your productivity and consumption. Transparent and observable to everyone else. I am not describing a monetary system.

What's the point of tracking them then?

You are awarded credit when you provide goods or services.
You are awarded debit when you consume goods or services.
I don't know how else to explain this.

The reason for the mechanism would be enlightening.

The idea is you will be put off from running up a huge debit record. Because everyone else will know that you're a leech and a drain.

So what if they know?
Is there any enforcement against being a leech?
What of people who cannot produce more value than they consume?

Others will strive to obtain a higher credit, so they can consume more goods and services, without running up a high debit rating.
Others will simply consume little and produce little.
Once again. You don't need credit to buy anything and debits are not debts.
I am not surprised a free market liberal is struggling with this. With respect.

I struggle because you've not fleshed out how your
unusual system functions in some important ways,
eg, allocation of limited resources.

Currency or money be it fiat or no fiat, is a token of recognised value, that can be exchanged for goods and services. Transactionally. This is not that. This is egalitarianism and collective ownership, with a transparent record for each individuals economic activity.

Debits & credits recognize value too.
For all practical purposes, you're describing money,
but used in a way that mimics a credit card.

Suppose I want a $500,000 tractor....they'll
just give it to me, & debit my account?

 

[Azrael Antilla]

Suppose I want a $500,000 tractor....they'll
just give it to me, & debit my account?

What would you want a tractor for? All industry and agriculture is fully automated. Say you wanted a 2 bedroom house. Which would award say arbitrarily 3000 debits to your ledger. 3000 debits reflects the energy labour carbon costs demand and materials etc involved in producing that house.
So now your ledger stands at 3000 debits.

If you keep consuming, without obtaining any credit. Your debit rating will simply increase. Since all ledgers are instantly viewable and completely transparent. Then your peers and community will be acutely aware that you're taking the ****. That is the enforcement against excess. Societal expectation. If self moderation and personal responsibility won't work for your greedy selfish ***.

Of course such a system would require other checks and balances too. Algorithmic moderation and human legislated regulation.

To be fair to me. This system was an off the top of my head response to the possibility of a non transactional economic system. Egalitarian as it could be in a post Industrial civilization. It's not refined in any proper way and I am not actually advocating it seriously. This is just an academic exercise. I think my economic system would require considerable changes both to society and the means of production. To have a snowball's chance.

 

[Azrael Antilla]

Another potential application of the system. If your debit rating is too high. You might not be permitted to take public office or access to certain vocations, like police enforcement. Of course now I am straying into the realms of the social credit system used in China. Which I have to say. I am not super keen on.

 

[Revoltingest]

What would you want a tractor for? All industry and agriculture is fully automated.

What if I wanted to farm...is that prohibited?

Say you wanted a 2 bedroom house. Which would award say arbitrarily 3000 debits to your ledger. 3000 debits reflects the energy labour carbon costs demand and materials etc involved in producing that house.
So now your ledger stands at 3000 debits.

If you keep consuming, without obtaining any credit. Your debit rating will simply increase. Since all ledgers are instantly viewable and completely transparent. Then your peers and community will be aware that you're taking the ****. That is the enforcement against excess. Societal expectation. If self moderation and personal responsibility won't work for your greedy ***.

Of course such a system would require other checks and balances too. Algorithmic moderation and human legislated regulation.

To be fair to me. This system was an off the top of my head response to the possibility of a non transactional economic system. Egalitarian as it could be in a post Industrial civilization. It's not refined in anyway and I am not actually advocating it seriously. This is just an academic exercise. I think my economic system would require considerable changes both to society and the means of production.

I see.
Perhaps your vision needs more thorough planning.
I recommend simulations to see what results when
putting humans in the system.

 

[Revoltingest]

Another potential application of the system. If your debit rating is too high. You might not be permitted to take public office or access to certain vocations, like police enforcement. Of course now I am straying into the realms of the social credit system used in China. Which I have to say. I am not super keen on.

It seems that you now understand that my comparing
your system with the PRC was not demonization.

 

[Azrael Antilla]

What if I wanted to farm...is that prohibited?

I see.
Perhaps your vision needs more thorough planning.
I recommend simulations to see what results when
putting humans in the system.

No you can have a farm and use it to generate credit. I guess. Although if full automation is the most efficient way of producing food. The amount of land available to other farming methods, might be limited. So small hobby farms, for self reliance or obtaining credit. Or both. Perhaps.


Certainly an experimental study would be totally necessary.

 

[Azrael Antilla]

It seems that you now understand that my comparing
your system with the PRC was not demonization.

In pure principle. It was a bit unfair to make the comparison. If I had started by tacking that restrictional stuff onto the system. Then yes, your assesment would be justified somewhat. Id like to mention that I am not a malevolent authoritarian with scant regard for human rights. Unlike the president of China.