Should we believe in Free Will?

[Willamena]

Religion and gender norms/rules are to major areas were social influence predetermines much of an individual; mental illnesses determines someone within a predictable range for a given illness. There are so many different things that effect us, and predispose us to certain behaviors and tendencies, that nothing that resembles free will can be said to exist. "Operating parameters" seems to be a more suitable term.

There are things that effect us, and then there are things we effect. The latter is self-determined.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Yes I read it. Too problematic to warrant serious discussion.

As per the OP, think of it like this.

Billions of years of motion affecting motion, setting off incredibly complex waves of cause and effect spreading out nearly infinitely until at some point in the relatively recent past all of that stopped, but just for us.

That sir is a very extraordinary claim.

So your defense for killing your neighbor and raping his wife is "Determinism made you do it"? And the Devil made Flip Wilson "Buy that dress". I guess a cop out is when determinism worms its way into our genes and makes us do stuff we know is wrong....against our (non-existent) will, making Satans_Serrated_Edge nothing but a finger-puppet bot.

On the other hand, using my free will, I move the cursor to the "Post Reply" button and click it....NOW!

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, the THRILL! Lemme do it AGAIN and AGAIN!

 

[Buddha Dharma]

Free Will? You are free to believe in it or not.

Ah yes, but need to believe in it is determined

 

[`mud]

The path that I take is intercepted by branches that other's took,
and then other other's took some paths from those.
Life is predestined to too many branches and determinations.
And some of us have a hard time choosing those multiples.
I sometimes think the guy in the sky is totally confused.
Or I'm always lost !!

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

So your defense for killing your neighbor and raping his wife is "Determinism made you do it"? And the Devil made Flip Wilson "Buy that dress". I guess a cop out is when determinism worms its way into our genes and makes us do stuff we know is wrong....against our (non-existent) will, making Satans_Serrated_Edge nothing but a finger-puppet bot.

On the other hand, using my free will, I move the cursor to the "Post Reply" button and click it....NOW!

Was this emotional outburst supposed to serve as an actual argument? Amusing.

 

[shunyadragon]

I don't know what the first part means. And the freedom to choose is not a freedom of options.

The problem is the outcome of the chain of cause and effect events and decisions limits our freedom (?) of our future choices.

I believe the claim of any significant 'freedom' is an illusion. How you use 'freedom' is not easily compared to the nature of human will or free will.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Ahh so you just object to free will in name alone?

I object the ideas that tend to come along with "free will," such as the idea that we are always free to make our own choices and decisions in life. I think we can and do make some decisions and choices, but there is so much that affects us that what room we have left for our own decisions and choices that are actually of our own volition and not primed by external factors that the idea of a "free will" is rendered inaccurate and we need a term to reflect things such as how we might choose to have coffee or juice for breakfast, but we didn't choose to have an urge to belong somewhere socially because that is a genetic/evolutionary feature that we come equipped with.

 

[Curious George]

I object the ideas that tend to come along with "free will," such as the idea that we are always free to make our own choices and decisions in life. I think we can and do make some decisions and choices, but there is so much that affects us that what room we have left for our own decisions and choices that are actually of our own volition and not primed by external factors that the idea of a "free will" is rendered inaccurate and we need a term to reflect things such as how we might choose to have coffee or juice for breakfast, but we didn't choose to have an urge to belong somewhere socially because that is a genetic/evolutionary feature that we come equipped with.

And that is more than fair. I agree the word itself seems to imply more than we find.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I object the ideas that tend to come along with "free will," such as the idea that we are always free to make our own choices and decisions in life. I think we can and do make some decisions and choices, but there is so much that affects us that what room we have left for our own decisions and choices that are actually of our own volition and not primed by external factors that the idea of a "free will" is rendered inaccurate and we need a term to reflect things such as how we might choose to have coffee or juice for breakfast, but we didn't choose to have an urge to belong somewhere socially because that is a genetic/evolutionary feature that we come equipped with.

The alternative, that we are just so deterministic and destined is just so horrible that I for one can't countenance it. I will agree that we are often so programmed by our past as to enact the future but I disagree that this not changeable. I do tend to be an optimist though. One of my several failings no doubt.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The alternative, that we are just so deterministic and destined is just so horrible that I for one can't countenance it. I will agree that we are often so programmed by our past as to enact the future but I disagree that this not changeable. I do tend to be an optimist though. One of my several failings no doubt.

Compatibilism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Compatibilism offers a solution to the free will problem, which concerns a disputed incompatibility between free will and determinism. Compatibilism is the thesis that free will is compatible with determinism. Because free will is typically taken to be a necessary condition of moral responsibility, compatibilism is sometimes expressed as a thesis about the compatibility between moral responsibility and determinism.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Compatibilism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Ta, I'm a bit old to be wading through this stuff now though.

I suppose I have a problem with determinism simply because I do accept full responsibility for my actions regardless of anything from the past or anything else that might be ordained.

Edit: I had trouble with much of Russell's work when I first became interested in philosophy, and this kind of area has to be the worst for doing my head in I must admit. I have deep suspicions as to its value too. But I am not really in a position to say otherwise at my age.

 

[WalterTrull]

I wonder if my right hand would like free will. I don't see the upside.

 

[Nakosis]

Sounds like a religious belief.

I was thinking kind of the same. Not so much religion but the same type of conviction in nomological determinism.

To argue against it is like trying to argue against God in the twelfth century.

 

[Nakosis]

sorry to be here soooooo late....but....

yes...you are free to believe what you will
(freewill)

and free to suffer the consequence

you could then say.....all is fixed and the future happens
but that follows the deed of your hand

if your hand does anything...it's because
you thought you should ....or
you felt like it

I'm more in the mind of compromise. The past may limit our future choices, but it doesn't define them.

 

[Nakosis]

I wonder if my right hand would like free will. I don't see the upside.

I wonder, if they could do such a thing, whether the individual cells in your hand would consider their actions wholly independent of their neighboring cells.

 

[Thief]

I'm more in the mind of compromise. The past may limit our future choices, but it doesn't define them.

it would be difficult to shake the labels by which you are known

 

[Thief]

I wonder, if they could do such a thing, whether the individual cells in your hand would consider their actions wholly independent of their neighboring cells.

if you COULD develop that level of control....
no poison or disease could harm you

but willfulness seems to be focused on the level of action
as we know our abilities to be

and all that we can do.....fades with every passing day

and then at last.....no will left to do
but die

and then the label on the stone

 

[WalterTrull]

it would be difficult to shake the labels by which you are known

Aha! Homing in on the crux. Labels. The mental jigs we use to build our castles. How do we alter or dispense with them? Do we want to? I've tried sporadically. Not much will in the effort unfortunately. Luckily we have the cornerstone: " ... for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven..."

 

[Nous]

According to studies, belief in determinism can cause both immoral behavior and general unhappiness.

Indeed, several of those studies are cited and described in the OP and #41 here: Psychological and Behavioral Effects of Belief in Determinism vs. Belief in Free Will