Should we believe in the Trinity Doctrine?

[linwood]

What was Jesus, actually?

I dunno,
It`s my opinion that if he existed at all he was a man or the amalgamation of more than one man into myth.

Nicene Creed states that he was the physical manifestation of god on Earth and that he literally, physically rose from the dead.

Those are the standards set by Constantines council for choosing what was to become the canon.
Any text or gospel that didn`t clearly reflect these properties for Jesus was rejected.
Much to the Arians dismay.

 

[logician]

I dunno,
It`s my opinion that if he existed at all he was a man or the amalgamation of more than one man into myth.

Nicene Creed states that he was the physical manifestation of god on Earth and that he literally, physically rose from the dead.

Those are the standards set by Constantines council for choosing what was to become the canon.
Any text or gospel that didn`t clearly reflect these properties for Jesus was rejected.
Much to the Arians dismay.

There were several and probably many competing religions and cults in the early centuries. Romans embraced Mirthraism strongly, and Gnosticism was also a strong cult (whoever Paul might have been, if he existed, certainly seemed to be a Gnostic). The effort was made to quash all competing cults and make the literalist version of Christianity the official version, and it stayed that way thru the use of wars and mission work.

 

[linwood]

There were several and probably many competing religions and cults in the early centuries. Romans embraced Mirthraism strongly, and Gnosticism was also a strong cult (whoever Paul might have been, if he existed, certainly seemed to be a Gnostic). The effort was made to quash all competing cults and make the literalist version of Christianity the official version, and it stayed that way thru the use of wars and mission work.

Yes, which was pretty much the outcome of the Nicean Council.

While the greatest debate at the time was with the Arian cult the final edict of the council was the destruction of many Jesus cults or early forms of Christianity.

I`ve wondered what the world today might be like if the Arians had been victorious at the council.

 

[Katzpur]

I`ve wondered what the world today might be like if the Arians had been victorious at the council.

"The Church" would still be believing a heresy, just a different one.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

God does NOT work through all religions. The Bible gives repeated warnings of false religions and false worship. Paul wrote concerning those who worship idols "The things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to become sharers with the demons" (1 Corinthians 10:20)

Jesus said "Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth." (John 4:23,24)

These verses show:
1. there are true worshipers (and by extension, false worship)
2. God requires worship based on truth.
3. God is very interested in those who worship him.

When the Israelites worshipped the calf Aaron made, Jehovah destroyed them. Time and again, Jehovah disciplined his people when they turned to false worship. False worship is ultimately given to demons and not to God.

Jesus showed that people of his day who believed they were worshipers of God were actually servants of Satan.
"You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]. Because I, on the other hand, tell the truth, your do not believe me. Who of you convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it you do not believe me? He that is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.” (John 8:44-47)

We need to find the Truth in order to please God and worship him acceptably. Saying God would accept any worship is as illogical as saying an employer would accept any kind of work we do for him. Good intentions are necessary but not enough. We need to find the truth and hold fast to it.

Let me see if I can explain myself better.
It is clear that idol worship is forbidden in the Bible. As are many other things. However, it is unfair to judge someone based on laws given to another people. The law of Moses and the Ten Commandments were given to the children of Israel. The children of Israel were God's people. They knew who he was and knew what he expected of them. For them to turn around and start worshipping some golden calf was completely inexcusable. "Where much is given, much is required."

We cannot judge someone without knowing what truth they already know and believe. It is true that we must find the truth and hold fast to it. Self righteously condemning other people because we think we have more truth than them is not acceptable. That is why we are taught to beware of false worship. There are many who claim to worship God just because they are members of this or that church. True discipleship is not based on the creeds one ascribes to. It is based on what one does. "Not every man that saith "Lord, Lord" shall enter into my Father's kingdom, but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven." What is the will of our Father? That we go about doing good.

Everyone is given a portion of God's light. Such is obvious when we look at the common knowledge of right and wrong that can be found in any religion, race or culture. As you accept light and knowledge, God gives you more. We are taught line upon line, precept upon precept. The light we have grows brighter and brighter until the perfect day. I can assure you that God will accept without reservation the good done by all people be they Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists or any other type. As an example. I believe 100% that my church is the restoration of the one originally set up by Christ while he was on the earth. However, I am willing to bet there are many "Good Mormons" who will have a serious wake up call when the judgement day arrives. They will wonder why someone who wasn't even a member of a church, let alone the "correct" church is going to heaven and they aren't. "But God! We were members of your Church! We're supposed to be the ones going to heaven!" Jesus vividly described what will happen in the NT:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[logician]

"The Church" would still be believing a heresy, just a different one.

It wouldn't be a heresy if it was the accepted version.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Here is a very powerful passage of scripture that lays it out very clearly in my opinion:

15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening dwolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Katzpur]

It wouldn't be a heresy if it was the accepted version.

Do you know the meaning of heresy? It appears not.

 

[linwood]

"The Church" would still be believing a heresy, just a different one.

I guess that could be said truthfully but it`s pretty subjective.

 

[logician]

Do you know the meaning of heresy? It appears not.

her⋅e⋅sy 
–noun, plural -sies. 1.opinion or doctrine at variance with the orthodox or ACCEPTED DOCTRINE, esp. of a church or religious system.



My post stands as stated.

 

[Katzpur]

I guess that could be said truthfully but it`s pretty subjective.

I can go along with that. In fact, that makes my point. Orthodoxy and heresy are both entirely subjective. Orthodoxy literally means "right opinion." Heresy literally means "choice." But who defines these terms anyway? Beliefs that were orthodox at one point in time were heresy at another point in time. And what's orthodox to me is heresy to someone else and visa versa. So, if Arius had triumphed at Nicea, his ideas would have become the "orthodox" ones. To me, though, they'd be as heretical as the ones that ultimately did become "orthodox."

 

[OmarKhayyam]

Xantians, ya gotta luv em.

They can't agree among themselves WHAT they believe but whatever it is they are D* sure the rest of us better believe it also.

Or burn forever. And rightly so.

 

[Smoke]

Why should any today, believe a teaching that neither, the Bible writers, The Christ, nor his early Apostles taught anyone! Shiner2

Why should the teachings of the Bible, Jesus, and the early apostles be the standard by which beliefs are accepted or rejected?

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Xantians, ya gotta luv em.

They can't agree among themselves WHAT they believe but whatever it is they are D* sure the rest of us better believe it also.

Or burn forever. And rightly so.

I am not sure this is what a majority of Christians think. It could be I suppose. I would be willing to call it a gross misrepresentation of what real Christians believe. When I use the term "real Christians" here, I am not talking about those who belong to the right church, I am talking about those who actually live what they believe, regardless of what church they attend (or don't attend). I am hopeful that a majority of those living the teachings of Jesus don't think anyone will burn forever just for not believing something.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

"I am hopeful that a majority of those living the teachings of Jesus don't think anyone will burn forever just for not believing something.'

Ah yes, hope springs eternal . . .

Ever read the Nicene Creed? I have. Recently actually. I am unable to recall any principal that allowed for "unbelief" in the Salvation only possible thru Jesus Christ.

Perhaps you could direct me to the passage you have in mind.:help:

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

The Nicene Creed has no bearing on who will go to heaven or hell. God is our judge. The bible gives a much much clearer picture of how the judgement will work. And it has nothing to do with the Nicene Creed.

 

[Smoke]

The Nicene Creed has no bearing on who will go to heaven or hell. God is our judge. The bible gives a much much clearer picture of how the judgement will work. And it has nothing to do with the Nicene Creed.

Well, they're both products of 4th-century Christian councils of bishops.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Well, they're both products of 4th-century Christian councils of bishops.

True. But honestly, do you think God would punish you for not believing exactly the right doctrine? He's more concerned with your heart than whether you favor some sect over the other. It's what you are, not what you say that counts.

 

[Smoke]

But honestly, do you think God would punish you for not believing exactly the right doctrine?

No, and I didn't believe than when I believed in God, either.

However, the Nicene Creed just says that Jesus Christ will judge the living and the dead. It doesn't say anything about punishment -- and it doesn't say he'll judge on the basis of belief, either.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Okay, sorry. Well, I guess we'll all believe in him when we meet him, right?