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Should we expect secular evidence of Jesus existence?

David M

David M

Well-Known Member
Caladan said:
This is a very good thread!
The Roman records do not say much or even anything about the crucifixion of a man named Jesus.
For the most part it is chasing ghosts to try and find hard evidence for a Jesus of Nazareth.
Click to expand...

As there are almost zero roman records from the area in that period its not surprising that there is no mention of a single religious preacher's death.

Contemporary records of many figures who were far more important during their own lifetimes and who had a far reaching immediate impact on society are missing, do we doubt that Hannibal or Boudicca existed?

Christianity was not a prominent cult outside the immediate area until it started to spread across the empire in the 1st century AD so again its not surprising that contemperaneous records from before that spread are missing.

The fact that there are no contemporary records is not evidence against the existance of a historic figure that became the Jesus of the NT. The fact that opponents writing in the 1st century did not question the whole basis of the cult shows that they did accept the existence of a historic Jesus which lends weight to the idea that he did exist.
 
dogsgod

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Paul claims he visited Jerusalem twice, 14 years apart. According to Acts, Paul's second visit would have been in the year 44CE, so that makes his first visit to Jerusalem in the year 30CE.

What were Peter, James, and John doing in Jerusalem in the year 30CE?

Reading Josephus, John the Baptist wasn't killed until 36CE.

Things aren't adding up.
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
David M said:
As there are almost zero roman records from the area in that period its not surprising that there is no mention of a single religious preacher's death.

Contemporary records of many figures who were far more important during their own lifetimes and who had a far reaching immediate impact on society are missing, do we doubt that Hannibal or Boudicca existed?
Click to expand...
In general, sure: the Jewish Civil War did create a major disruption in this area. However, we know that we have at least one source for events in this time: Josephus. He's not exactly contemporary, but he's pretty close, and he created a fairly detailed chronicle of events in Judea over this period.

He might've missed the execution of a single preacher for sedition, but it would be very bizarre for him to have missed huge events like major earthquakes, Herod's slaughter of the infant boys, or the dead rising from the grave en masse and walking into Jerusalem in full view of everyone.

David M said:
Christianity was not a prominent cult outside the immediate area until it started to spread across the empire in the 1st century AD so again its not surprising that contemperaneous records from before that spread are missing.

The fact that there are no contemporary records is not evidence against the existance of a historic figure that became the Jesus of the NT. The fact that opponents writing in the 1st century did not question the whole basis of the cult shows that they did accept the existence of a historic Jesus which lends weight to the idea that he did exist.
Click to expand...
But what sort of historic Jesus did they accept?

A mortal man... sure. The embodiment of God... certainly not.

It seems reasonable to me (and IMO the evidence seems to suggest) that people in the ancient world took for granted that this early Christian "cult" had originally started as a group that had the man Jesus as its leader... all that's fine, but it suggests an entirely natural cause for Christianity.

When it comes to the miracle tales, or the claims of divine origins... those were completely rejected out-of-hand by the non-Christians.

IMO, this historical argument only gets you to a point where the origins of Christian are reasonable but entirely unremarkable, and all of the things that make Christianity what it is today are rejected as false.

The profane details of Jesus' life aren't really the issue. There are problems when you try to correlate between the Bible and other sources, but in general, the idea that an itinerant preacher was wandering around Judea gaining followers and was eventually executed can be reconciled with the historical record.

Where you get into difficulty is with the sacred details of the Gospel story. None of them are supported by the historical record apart from the Bible, and the profane details don't support them: there's no way to go from "Josephus kinda implies that Jesus lived" to "therefore the Resurrection happened".

dogsgod said:
Paul claims he visited Jerusalem twice, 14 years apart. According to Acts, Paul's second visit would have been in the year 44CE, so that makes his first visit to Jerusalem in the year 30CE.

What were Peter, James, and John doing in Jerusalem in the year 30CE?

Reading Josephus, John the Baptist wasn't killed until 36CE.

Things aren't adding up.
Click to expand...
Out of curiousity, how did you come to those dates for Paul's visits?
 
Autodidact

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
David M said:
As there are almost zero roman records from the area in that period its not surprising that there is no mention of a single religious preacher's death.

Contemporary records of many figures who were far more important during their own lifetimes and who had a far reaching immediate impact on society are missing, do we doubt that Hannibal or Boudicca existed?
Click to expand...

The same Hannibal whose campaigns are described in detail in the third book of the World History by the Greek historian Polybius of Megalopolis (ca.200-118 BCE)? And, of course, Livy and Juvenal later.
This Hannibal?
hannibal_coin.jpg


Further, Hannibal is a type of thing we know to exist--a general, who was born and died in the usual way of mortals, not a miracle-producing magical God/man.
 
O

Oberon

Well-Known Member
dogsgod said:
Paul claims he visited Jerusalem twice, 14 years apart. According to Acts, Paul's second visit would have been in the year 44CE, so that makes his first visit to Jerusalem in the year 30CE.

What were Peter, James, and John doing in Jerusalem in the year 30CE?

Reading Josephus, John the Baptist wasn't killed until 36CE.

Things aren't adding up.
Click to expand...

That's because your dates are largely pulled out of thin air. Josephus does not say, for example, that john the baptist was killed in 36. You just made that up (or your source did).
 
B

BLACK ADDER

New Member
Thank you for your very refreshing angle on this question.
Someone, I did not get the name, asked'"Then why are you looking for evidence of Christ's existance?"
May I earnestly assure you that I am NOT looking for evidence of the existance of Jesus Christ. I am totally convinced that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that seek Him.
Do you believe in the existance of the Bible? (I have one right here) If not,do not bother reading the rest of this post. :sorry1:
If,however,you do believe that the Bible exists,that it is the inerrant Word of God, then we can see what God has to say on the subject.
By the way, before i mention a lot of Bible verses to you that refer to Jesus Christ , let me point out something:
In the 7th and 8th century AD,the church of the time ( Catholic,which means "universal") had a problem. they wanted to convert pagans,Germanic pagans, for political ,fiscal reasons. That was the great days of the Irish monk missionairies. When the Irish monks tried to convert pagans ,they found an interesting thing about their concepts of God. They equated prosperity with supernatural power. Almost exclusively, the pagan mind was drawn to the divinity that could prosper them.(from the Oxford Church History) Interestingly,that is the same mindset amongst seekers in the United States.Check out the "super" churches,like the one in Houston Texas with "pastor"Joel Osteen, or check out TBN or one of the "christian" channels. Todays American,having gotten away from the God of the Bible, has gone full circle,and they fill auditoriums to overflowing for supernatural "prosperity". I was eating lunch the other day in my hospital's cafeteria and overheard a young lady discussing a 3x5 card she had recieved from someone. This card was a "prayer card".The holder explained that ,to get it to work and bring her prosperity,she had to read it aloud three times (I'm not joking) and make three circles in the air with the card.
Has modern man reverted to paganism to such an extent they no longer know or can identify the God of the Bible? I assure you it makes me sick,I think all of you atheists/deists/seekers sick. I shouldn't wonder if it makes GOD sick!
Here is a statement I hope you will take to heart:
"GOD IS NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR HAPPINESS...HE IS INTERESTED IN YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS" Black Adder 11/12/2010 1300 hrs
and you may quote me

Cordially,
The Black Adder
Isaiah 32:17
 
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I

Ilisrum

Active Member
Not to mention that Acts disagrees with Paul on several key details in ways that can't be reconciled, which calls into question the reliability of Acts as a whole. Most scholars place Paul's second visit to Jerusalem in or around 49 CE, if I'm not mistaken. Of course... this is only an estimate.:shrug:

Seek and you shall (or won't) find. It goes both ways.

It's doubtful that Jesus would have made it into the writings of many first century authors. What we have is about as good as it's gonna get. I'm curious what information has been lost or suppressed since that time. Like what, if anything, is behind Hegesippus' story about the trial of the grandsons of Jude before Hadrian. But, that's irrelevant.
 
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Autodidact

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
BLACK ADDER said:
Thank you for your very refreshing angle on this question.
Someone, I did not get the name, asked'"Then why are you looking for evidence of Christ's existance?"
May I earnestly assure you that I am NOT looking for evidence of the existance of Jesus Christ. I am totally convinced that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that seek Him.
Do you believe in the existance of the Bible? (I have one right here) If not,do not bother reading the rest of this post. :sorry1:
If,however,you do believe that the Bible exists,that it is the inerrant Word of God, then we can see what God has to say on the subject.
By the way, before i mention a lot of Bible verses to you that refer to Jesus Christ , let me point out something:
In the 7th and 8th century AD,the church of the time ( Catholic,which means "universal") had a problem. they wanted to convert pagans,Germanic pagans, for political ,fiscal reasons. That was the great days of the Irish monk missionairies. When the Irish monks tried to convert pagans ,they found an interesting thing about their concepts of God. They equated prosperity with supernatural power. Almost exclusively, the pagan mind was drawn to the divinity that could prosper them.(from the Oxford Church History) Interestingly,that is the same mindset amongst seekers in the United States.Check out the "super" churches,like the one in Houston Texas with "pastor"Joel Osteen, or check out TBN or one of the "christian" channels. Todays American,having gotten away from the God of the Bible, has gone full circle,and they fill auditoriums to overflowing for supernatural "prosperity". I was eating lunch the other day in my hospital's cafeteria and overheard a young lady discussing a 3x5 card she had recieved from someone. This card was a "prayer card".The holder explained that ,to get it to work and bring her prosperity,she had to read it aloud three times (I'm not joking) and make three circles in the air with the card.
Has modern man reverted to paganism to such an extent they no longer know or can identify the God of the Bible? I assure you it makes me sick,I think all of you atheists/deists/seekers sick. I shouldn't wonder if it makes GOD sick!
Here is a statement I hope you will take to heart:
"GOD IS NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR HAPPINESS...HE IS INTERESTED IN YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS" Black Adder 11/12/2010 1300 hrs
and you may quote me

Cordially,
The Black Adder
Isaiah 32:17
Click to expand...

Can you see any distinction between:
(1) The Bible exists AND
(2) The Bible is the inerrant word of God?

This thread is about evidence of the life of Jesus OUTSIDE the Bible. Do you have any? Do you expect any? Why or why not?

p.s. Why do you assume the Bible is the inerrant word of God?
 
outhouse

outhouse

Atheistically
Oberon said:
No, it doesn't. It is a very well known satirical site.
Click to expand...

true it is a parady site. They use the literal bible with their interpitation. Many people have their own interpitation.

that is just a glimpse of literal thinking
 
O

Oberon

Well-Known Member
outhouse said:
true it is a parady site. They use the literal bible with their interpitation. Many people have their own interpitation.

that is just a glimpse of literal thinking
Click to expand...
If you want a glimpse of literal thinking, a parody site isn't really the way to go.
 
dogsgod

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
Out of curiousity, how did you come to those dates for Paul's visits?
Click to expand...
That was easy. Acts 12 begins, "It was about this time" of which refers to both the passage at the end of chapter eleven wherein Saul and Barnabas go to Jerusalem to bring gifts to the elders and also of the time that James, son of Zebedee is killed and this is followed by the death soon after of Herod which is known to be in the year 44CE, and this is followed by Paul leaving Jerusalem. Oddly enough, Paul himself never mentions the death of James in his letters, we only read of it in Acts. So, we can account for James being killed in 44CE based on Herod's death, and according to Acts, Paul was there at that time. Paul states that his visits with James, Peter, and John were 14 years apart so that would have his first visit in 30CE. Incidentally, it was that first visit in 30CE when Paul refers to James, the son of Zebedee, as the brother of the Lord. In the gospels, James is the partner of Peter and the brother of John.
 
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O

Oberon

Well-Known Member
dogsgod said:
Incidentally, it was that first visit in 30CE when Paul refers to James, the son of Zebedee, as the brother of the Lord. In the gospels, James is the partner of Peter and the brother of John.
Click to expand...
This is just one example of how your dates get so messed up. James the son of Zebedee is called "son of zebedee" because that's how he was differentiated/identified from other people named James, such as "James the brother of Jesus." Unless of course you have another explanation for the syntact/pragmatic use of the gentive construction in Galatians. Still don't understand how you forged some date from Josephus, but I'm sure it is no lessed based on inaccuracy.
 
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