Shroud of Turin is from first AD.

[joelr]

Yes All the teachings. There is a teaching for everyone, just find the one you can follow and enlighten to. My own search has sendt me over many teachings.

So then it doesn't matter to you if it's real or not? So in this case people who are "enlightened" from Jehovas Witness are now "enlightened" to the fact that the devil has corropted all historical scholarship and basically infiltrated mainstream society. Anyone outside of the JW religion is going to die in the final war which is coming soon.

The people enlightened by Islam know Jesus is not a savior deity but just a man who was a prophet. Christians are liers and cursed and any non-believers get a "painful doom".
So enlightenment is a free for all of whatever concept you buy into?

 

[joelr]

I believe the teaching is true, it impacts my life every day in all areas

That is too vague? There is some wisdom, especially from Judaism that applies to life and is good wisdom. That doesn't mean all the theology is true? I don't know what teaching you are talking about?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Every religion claims to get strength from their God. As do cult members, Scientologists and many other type groups. What you are probably getting is strength from the belief in a God or from belief that a God is sending you strength. You have to demonstrate that a God is actually sending you strength if you are going to make the claim.

I made no claim, I said what my personal belief is.
You on the other hand assume you know what I believe or should believe. That is on you not me

 

[Spirit of Light]

So then it doesn't matter to you if it's real or not? So in this case people who are "enlightened" from Jehovas Witness are now "enlightened" to the fact that the devil has corropted all historical scholarship and basically infiltrated mainstream society. Anyone outside of the JW religion is going to die in the final war which is coming soon.

The people enlightened by Islam know Jesus is not a savior deity but just a man who was a prophet. Christians are liers and cursed and any non-believers get a "painful doom".
So enlightenment is a free for all of whatever concept you buy into?

Only a few humans will ever realize enlightenment. I am probably not one of them.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes. I think the first hominids looked a lot like chimps but walked more than they swung in trees.

But that is probably from a biased perspective. We notice the difference between our fellow human beings far more than we can recognize individual differences between chimpanzees. So any species difference will seem greater to us when compared to people than the difference would see between that species and a chimp.

We can't help but to be biased in that way.

 

[joelr]

I made no claim, I said what my personal belief is.
You on the other hand assume you know what I believe or should believe. That is on you not me

No, I never mentioned anything about what you should believe?

Now you are going in circles. It's been established you have personal beliefs. The thing I have been asking is if you believe them to be real do you have evidence? As well as several other questions, all avoided here.

 

[joelr]

Only a few humans will ever realize enlightenment. I am probably not one of them.

Not getting to the question at all. Now you are talking about enlightenment as if you are a Buddhist? We are using the word in a different way. If you are a JW then you are enlightened to the things I mentioned. Every scripture has a different theology you become aware of and a believer in. You mentioned Christianity which also isn't about the actual concept of enlightment at all? It's about belief in a theology and getting salvation so you can get to the correct afterlife and other codes of behavior. Also sacrifice but instead of an annual sacrifice the savior blood works forever.

But the question is, once enlightened to needing a specific savior to get into heaven (A Greek invention both souls being redeemed and going to heaven) then you have to follow that path. Which brings up the question is it true? That seems important because why believe something like that if it's not even real?
Also salvation is a Greek idea the Hebrew religious leaders, and most other religions blended into their religion.
see Hellenism in Ancient Religion by Petra Pakken. Dr Carrier does a good seminar on youtube on this as well.

 

[joelr]

But that is probably from a biased perspective. We notice the difference between our fellow human beings far more than we can recognize individual differences between chimpanzees. So any species difference will seem greater to us when compared to people than the difference would see between that species and a chimp.

We can't help but to be biased in that way.

Yes that is a bias. It's harder to tell the difference between chimps. The first hominid, Taung Child was very much a chimp-like ape still, hadn't developed upright stance, loss of body hair, larger brain/skull, eating meat or any of those traits. It was just a relative of the chimp who had to start walking more because of de-forestation and increase in plains. From there they had pressure to become more human like. The last hominid before us Heidelbergensis was mostly human looking.

 

[syo]

The shroud is from a dead man. That's gross.

And Jesus never walked the earth.

 

[joelr]

Facts are facts and irrefutable, scientific facts have been wrong in the past of which you seem to be fine with that deception. The theory of evolution that says a human being evolved from ape or monkey is not proven and is false, the evidence of human civilization doesn’t support that. Look at all the activity that shows up around the time frame of the Genesis account.
So are you a monkey?

Again, trolling. You have been educated on what a monkey is and isn't, what an Ape is and isn't yet still ask red herring questions. Either you cannot retain or process basic information or are just a troll?

What evolution has is massive lines of evidence from the cellular and molecular level and up. We have the fossils of the slow changes hominids made, slowly moving closer to modern humans over millions of years.
It happened. The majority of Christians believe in evolution. The remaining fundamentalists are like 9/11 conspiracy theorists desperately clinging to denial.

Human civilization started 10,000 years ago. Humans started about 200,000 years ago. The Israelite myths don't work and are complete fiction like all creation accounts in ancient mythology.

Genesis is from 6 BC. Your apologetics are funny because fundamentalists were saying that when it was thought humans were 50,000 years old. Then when it changed to 100,000 they changed the timeline and now that evidence points to 200,000 years now suddenly Genesis has "activity around that time".
You know what else shows up around the time of the Genesis account? 7 heavens in outer space, the blue sky is the cosmic waters behind heaven and windows in space where the flood waters flow out of.
and humans were made from clay?
Mesopotamia beat you to the story by thousands of years.

 

[joelr]

A fact is irrefutable and but apparently a scientific fact is not irrefutable and can be wrong

It isn't a scientific fact. It's a massive amount of evidence of gene dispersion and natural selection and many other aspects. Like gravity or thermodynamics it isn't going to be wrong. There will be additions and tweaks. That's it.

 

[Sheldon]

Faith in God and the teaching, the study of the teaching is up to me, but I can get strenght from God in the prosess

Do you think it is possible you might get that same strength from the belief, even if no deity existed? Objectively one would have to note that people make this same claim, while believing in very different religions and deities, which to me suggests it would. Obviously you don't believe that's what is happening, but how do you know it isn't a possibility, if indeed you do believe it is not possible of course.

 

[joelr]

I know it because it doesn’t line up with the false theory of evolution from ape to human beings. You have to get rid of all dissenting voices and evidence by any means possible.

Humans are still in the ape family.
There are ZERO dissenting voices who have studied the theory and gotten degrees. None. The one thing science never does, and proper critical thinkers never do is get rid of good evidence.


Please present a peer-reviewed paper against evolution?

Speaking of getting rid of dissenting voices by any means possible you have ignored all of the historical evidence that shows the Bible is reworked older myths.

 

[joelr]

Such double talk…Are you a monkey or not? Your buddy says he is a monkey.

Your just basically admitting you have nothing by trolling


Kingdom: Animalia- humans and monkeys are both
Phylum: Chordata- humans and monkeys are both
Class: Mammalia- humans and monkeys are both
Order: Primates - humans and monkeys are both
Suborder: Haplorhini- humans and monkeys are both
Infraorder: Simiiformes- humans and monkeys are both, it stops here for monkeys
Parvorder: Catarrhini - humans not monkeys
Superfamily: Hominoidea - human not monkeys
Family: Hominidae - human not monkey

 

[joelr]

What I am saying is that human beings have always been human beings, created by God and didn’t come from an evolutionary process over millions or billions of years.
I see this from the historical evidence of civilization all abundance of life that coincides with the Genesis timeline. I haven’t seen human beings change or evolve for thousands of years. Haven’t seen any evidence of chimps, monkeys, apes changing in thousands of years either.
Now I will take your non answer of Do you agree with @Subduction Zone that you are a monkey?
That you are afraid to answer that, it’s a yes or no.
He said he knows he is a monkey, do you share that view? Are you?

Because humans have not changed in 200,000 years.
Species evolve into new species over millions of years. You have to look at the fossil record to see this.
So your critique is uninformed.
You could educate yourself but probably not going to happen.

 

[Sheldon]

It isn't a scientific fact. It's a massive amount of evidence of gene dispersion and natural selection and many other aspects. Like gravity or thermodynamics it isn't going to be wrong. There will be additions and tweaks. That's it.

Creationist use this rationale quite a lot, firstly they conflate species evolution with every little piece of information science has about it, from the solidly evidenced facts to the conjecture that is still being learned. That all living things evolved slowly over time and share common ancestry, is a scientific fact in as much as science knows it to be true, because it is underpinned by an overwhelming amount of objective evidence. They just can't understand that something known to be irrefutably true, is still not an absolute, as the methods of insist all ideas must remain always tentative and open to revision in the light of new evidence. This doesn't mean everything is always changing and therefore unreliable, which is just creationist propaganda of course.

The likelihood an entire scientific theory like species evolution, supported by all the objective evidence of over 162 years of global scientific scrutiny would be reversed now is effectively nil.

 

[joelr]

You’re so eloquently wrong and seems this 2016 article should have been taken off the internet. We are the most medicated, overweight society around should’ve been the statement not disease resistant. I wish it were so especially with Covid. Doesn’t seem like we are too disease resistant now does it. The mantra was we are all going to die and the fear across the world. Problem with evolutionist is they are what they think - animals. This has contributed not to a better society but a hopeless, faithless, prayerless, Godless society with no vision or purpose.
That’s just 1 in the list.
Why is everyone pushing the vaccine regiment if this so and from birth? What is it now, almost 100?

We have resistance to disease. Not biologically created weapon diseases?
People don't need ancient Greek/Persian myths for hope. There is endless philosophy to study that deals with issues. Because people sit around getting fat and taking medication thinking they are going to see relatives in their afterlife doesn't mean they have a vision and a purpose?
You are creating a false dichotomy by lumping in hopelessness with prayerless and faithless.
People don;t need faith in a myth or prayer to an imaginary being to have a hopeful life. What a simplistic view?

In fact the majority of scientists are not religious but devote their lives to a purpose. Believing in a fictional story gives you purpose over everyone else? I don't think so.

 

[joelr]

Creationist use this rationale quite a lot, firstly they conflate species evolution with every little piece of information science has about it, from the solidly evidenced facts to the conjecture that is still being learned. That all living things evolved slowly over time and share common ancestry, is a scientific fact in as much as science knows it to be true, because it is underpinned by an overwhelming amount of objective evidence. They just can't understand that something known to be irrefutably true, is still not an absolute, as the methods of insist all ideas must remain always tentative and open to revision in the light of new evidence. This doesn't mean everything is always changing and therefore unreliable, which is just creationist propaganda of course.

The likelihood an entire scientific theory like species evolution, supported by all the objective evidence of over 162 years of global scientific scrutiny would be reversed now is effectively nil.

I know, I was hoping he wasn't going into evolution because the fundamentalist ideas that are taught on evolution are so desperate and misinformed that they are hard to read.
Even now he's using the propaganda thing from the 1960's "I didn't evolve from a monkey, I'm not a monkey".
It's like if I was arguing against Christianity saying "oh I don't believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny or St Patricks magic"

 

[joelr]

It’s only honest and right to say what and who I am:
“Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, “The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.” They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.”
‭‭I Peter‬ ‭2:7-10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
And as the OP communicates this, He has risen from the dead.

Cool story. It's true because it's in scripture? Ok then -

"The people of the Scriptures (the Jews and Christians) know that the Muslims are correct in their beliefs, so they try to make Muslims disbelievers because they envy the truth that they know the Muslims have."
Surah 2
THE COW (Al-Madinah)
109 Many of the people of the Scripture long to make you disbelievers after your belief, through envy on their own account, after the truth hath become manifest unto them. Forgive and be indulgent (toward them) until Allah give command. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.



113 And the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (true), and the Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true); yet both are readers of the Scripture. Even thus speak those who know not. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they differ.
The Jews say the Christians are wrong, and the Christians say the Jews are wrong. [3]

Yet both read the scriptures. Allah will make their lives miserable in this world and torture them forever after they die.


That isn't true?? Huh, guess scripture isn't always true? Possibly it's never true?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Not getting to the question at all. Now you are talking about enlightenment as if you are a Buddhist? We are using the word in a different way. If you are a JW then you are enlightened to the things I mentioned. Every scripture has a different theology you become aware of and a believer in. You mentioned Christianity which also isn't about the actual concept of enlightment at all? It's about belief in a theology and getting salvation so you can get to the correct afterlife and other codes of behavior. Also sacrifice but instead of an annual sacrifice the savior blood works forever.

But the question is, once enlightened to needing a specific savior to get into heaven (A Greek invention both souls being redeemed and going to heaven) then you have to follow that path. Which brings up the question is it true? That seems important because why believe something like that if it's not even real?
Also salvation is a Greek idea the Hebrew religious leaders, and most other religions blended into their religion.
see Hellenism in Ancient Religion by Petra Pakken. Dr Carrier does a good seminar on youtube on this as well.

I believe it to be true