Sikhism: Did Nanak proclaim to be Guru?

[TransmutingSoul]

Sikhism: Did Nanak proclaim to be Guru?

why so many large quotes?

I will see in what you have posted, different things from what other see, but I do see what is posted through the Message of Baha'u'llah. Thus I see many wonderful aspects, I also see aspects that are the domain of a Messenger.

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

Seems like a wise choice.

I posed your question on a Sikh forum, and one person said Nanak referred to himself as Slave Nanak, not Guru Nanak. That seemed very reasonable to me.

So that person agrees with me that Nanak used the word "Guru" for God, not for himself. Right, please?
It would ,therefore, be wrong to say that Nanak was a "Guru" or the "First Guru" or the "Founding Guru". I understand, it would be misrepresentation of Nanak's words. Right, please?

Regards

 

[Vinayaka]

So that person agrees with me that Nanak used the word "Guru" for God, not for himself. Right, please?
It would ,therefore, be wrong to say that Nanak was a "Guru" or the "First Guru" or the "Founding Guru". I understand, it would be misrepresentation of Nanak's words. Right, please?

Regards

I listen to what Sikhs say, not what outsiders say. Obviously he was the founder of Sikhism. I have no idea why you would want to prove that wrong. With that, I will be out of this discussion, as it is leading nowhere. Best wishes to you in proving every religion except yours to be wrong.

 

[Jedster]

I listen to what Sikhs say, not what outsiders say. Obviously he was the founder of Sikhism. I have no idea why you would want to prove that wrong. With that, I will be out of this discussion, as it is leading nowhere. Best wishes to you in proving every religion except yours to be wrong.

Maybe @paarsurrey can prove that Ahmadiyya is the one true religion by simply proving that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the 'Promised Messiah'.
(it would save him a lot of time going thorough every world religion).

 

[Aupmanyav]

Paarsurrey, claims are a thing of Abrahamic religions. It will be considered highly arrogant, conceited, egotistical, immodest, ostentatious, presumptuous and shameful. Only charlatans will do it here. In Indian religions, nobody claims any special status. They will seek the lowest status. Of course, the disciples may start calling that person guru in time.

 

[paarsurrey]

Sikhism: Did Nanak proclaim to be Guru, please?

I understand that Nanak did not claim to be Guru in a clear, unequivocal, unambiguous and straightforward manner, as per Granth .
If yes, please quote from Nanak?
Right, please?
Thread open to everybody of religion or no-religion.

Regards
_____________
Nanak says:
"I am the chaylaa, the disciple."
"the Lord of the World is my Guru."
Page 943 of Granth

“The Shabad is the Guru, upon whom I lovingly focus my consciousness; I am the chaylaa, the disciple.” (943-1)
“O Nanak, throughout the ages, the Lord of the World is my Guru.” (943-2)
PAGE 943 - Gurmukhi to English Translation and Phonetic Transliteration of Siri Guru Granth Sahib.

 

[paarsurrey]

Sikhism: Did Nanak proclaim to be Guru, please?

I understand that Nanak did not claim to be Guru in a clear, unequivocal, unambiguous and straightforward manner, as per Granth .
If yes, please quote from Nanak?
Right, please?
Thread open to everybody of religion or no-religion.

Regards
_____________
Nanak says:
"I am the chaylaa, the disciple."
"the Lord of the World is my Guru."
Page 943 of Granth

“The Shabad is the Guru, upon whom I lovingly focus my consciousness; I am the chaylaa, the disciple.” (943-1)
“O Nanak, throughout the ages, the Lord of the World is my Guru.” (943-2)
PAGE 943 - Gurmukhi to English Translation and Phonetic Transliteration of Siri Guru Granth Sahib.

The True Guru is the Creator Lord, independent and carefree.(1024-8)
PAGE 1024 - Gurmukhi to English Translation and Phonetic Transliteration of Siri Guru Granth Sahib.

 

[paarsurrey]

@paarsurrey ... Are you reading a translation, or an original? Translations can have a lot of bias, and I think it's good to be aware of that. I hope you do discover what you're looking for about Sikhism.

Coronavirus has been difficult on the Sikh community as they've had to stop langar. Here in my community, a couple of restaurants have taken that over, and provide free food for everyone, pick up only. But it's just not the same as going to the gurdwara first for prayer, then langar. All the volunteers have nothing to do, so some have gone over to the restaurants to help.

" Are you reading a translation, or an original? Translations can have a lot of bias"

I am myself a Punjabi speaking person but I cannot read it from the Gurmukhi script, to understand from the transliteration is also difficult, so I am reading from the Translation done by Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa, MD provided by:
PAGE 1032 - Gurmukhi to English Translation and Phonetic Transliteration of Siri Guru Granth Sahib.
The translations could be biased, I agree with one here.
One may like to read my post #26 in another thread in this connection, please. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I see no difference.

Capitalization of a word may sometimes, if not all times, could convey a different meaning against the context of the original work, and may mislead people altogether.
One may like to read my post #26 in another thread, please?
Right, please?

Regards

 

[ManSinha]

Hopefully @ManSinha will be along to elucidate things for us.

I told that jack*** I would NOT be answering his ridiculous questions - as many have noticed - all he seeks to do is undermine other faiths without examining his own - I am not willing to engage with that

I have challenged him before and as @danieldemol says - he ignores answers and speaks in a circular language

Let me tell you once and for all - the SGGS is collection of poems and hymns from different individuals regarded as holy and and as worshippers of the lord in whatever form - there is reference to Allah (Shaikh Fareed) and Narayan (Naamdev) and both (Kabir) as well as those of the 5 individuals out of the 9 that followed Nanak - it is not predictive of future events nor a history book by any stretch of imagination

I call Sikhism a philosophy based on Adwaita Vedanta and the vast majority of the SGGS is a confirmation of that if one takes it in context

Like @Vinayaka said you will not find "claims" about anything unlike Mirza Ahmad - and @paarsurrey - you are wrong about the fact that he did not have disciples in his time - look up Bhai Bala (a hindu) and Bhai Mardana (a Muslim) - do your bl**** research before posting unfounded statements

The Guru's were humble to the point where the 10th Guru Gobind Singh had this to say:

Jo Hum Ko Parmeshwar Uchar Hai
Tay Sabh Narak Kund Mah Par Hai
Mo Ko Daas Tavan Kaa Jaano
Yaa Mai Bhed Na Runch Pachhaano
Mai Ho Param Purkh Ko Daasa
Dekhan Aayo Jagat Tamaasa
(Bachittar Natak)

Those who address me as God
Shall fall into the pit of hell.
Treat me as a servant of the Lord
And entertain no doubt about it.
I am only a slave of the Lord. I have
only come to witness the Lord's play (Lila).

I am done with you - you are going on my "ignore" list

I would ask the Sikh as to why they have not accepted Baha'u'llah, from what I have read from those writings, they already have a lot of common foundations.

That is an incredibly arrogant, ignorant and immodest statement not to speak of openly proselytizing

You do not ask someone that has everything they want to go looking for something else is why

Because Guru Nanak came first and said whatever there was to say - the question IMO should be reversed "Why should anyone follow Baha'u'llah - when all he said was already said - answer that first - what is "new and revolutionary" about what Baha'u'llah said that the dharmic faiths do not already have. Give me one point - just one - if you can - else I shall accept the fact that you are misguided and indoctrinated and a not-so-sly proselytizer at that or at best a hypocrite.

The Sikhs had 10 Guru's to refine and hone the philosophy to a sharp needle that cuts through Maya if followed correctly. What did the charlatan that you follow do? Proclaim himself to be the return of x y and z - yes in India we call them frauds and charlatans

The Sikh philosophy is pretty simple - 3 tenets anyone can follow

1. Kirit Karo (work hard and honestly)
2. Wand Shako (share what you have with other fellow creatures)
3. Naam Japo (remember the lord)

So why should I leave a faith that is the pure distillation of Adwaita and "accept Baha'u'llah" who I regard as nothing more than a faker and a fraud?

 

[Jedster]

I told that jack*** I would NOT be answering his ridiculous questions - as many have noticed - all he seeks to do is undermine other faiths without examining his own - I am not willing to engage with that

I have challenged him before and as @danieldemol says - he ignores answers and speaks in a circular language

Let me tell you once and for all - the SGGS is collection of poems and hymns from different individuals regarded as holy and and as worshippers of the lord in whatever form - there is reference to Allah (Shaikh Fareed) and Narayan (Naamdev) and both (Kabir) as well as those of the 5 individuals out of the 9 that followed him - it is not predictive of future events nor a history book by any stretch of imagination

I call Sikhism a philosophy based on Adwaita Vedanta and the vast majority of the SGGS is a confirmation of that if one takes it in context

Like @Vinayaka said you will not find "claims" about anything unlike Mirza Ahmad - and @paarsurrey - you are wrong about the fact that he did not have disciples in his time - look up Bhai Bala (a hindu) and Bhai Mardana (a Muslim) - do your bl**** research before posting unfounded statements

The Guru's were humble to the point where the 10th Guru Gobind Singh had this to say:

Jo Hum Ko Parmeshwar Uchar Hai
Tay Sabh Narak Kund Mah Par Hai
Mo Ko Daas Tavan Kaa Jaano
Yaa Mai Bhed Na Runch Pachhaano
Mai Ho Param Purkh Ko Daasa
Dekhan Aayo Jagat Tamaasa
(Bachittar Natak)
Those who address me as God
Shall fall into the pit of hell.
Treat me as a servant of the Lord
And entertain no doubt about it.
I am only a slave of the Lord. I have
only come to witness the Lord's play (Lila).

I am done with you - you are going on my "ignore" list



That is an incredibly arrogant, ignorant and immodest statement not to speak of openly proselytizing

You do not ask someone that has everything they want to go looking for something else is why

Because Guru Nanak came first and said whatever there was to say - the question IMO should be reversed "Why should anyone follow Baha'u'llah - when all he said was already said - answer that first - what is "new and revolutionary" about what Baha'u'llah said that the dharmic faiths do not already have. Give me one point - just one - if you can - else I shall accept the fact that you are misguided and indoctrinated.

A good example of identifying "two birds with one stone".

 

[Vinayaka]

I told that jack*** I would NOT be answering his ridiculous questions - as many have noticed - all he seeks to do is undermine other faiths without examining his own - I am not willing to engage with that

I've dropped out of this conversation as well, for the very same reasons you note. It goes nowhere. So too with Baha'i conversations for me. It goes nowhere. I've quit walking some long and winding road that seems for awhile to go somewhere, but ends right back where you started. But hey, live and learn.

The plot is to ask some question, start some debate, and hook someone to engage you, thinking that it might be some legitimate query. But it never is.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
My question in the OP is about Nanak from his contents in the Granth specifically. Please look into it. Right, please?

Why should I waste time on a pointless exercise?

Let us suppose Nanak never used the words “I am a Guru”, does this mean he was not a Guru? Does the apple have to proclaim itself an apple in order to be an apple?

The point is that Nanak said as I understand that G-d is Guru and he is only His disciple/slave.
Nanak did not say that he was the "First Guru", as our Sikhism friends want us to believe and in this way creating a space for a line of self-made "gurus" right from Angad to Gobind, please.
I understand that Angad promoted Nanak as First Guru, so that he could claim to be the Second Guru, while Nanak did not make anybody his successor.
If yes, then kindly quote from Nanak's words/hymns in the Granth, please.
Right,please?
Anybody, please

Regards

 

[Aupmanyav]

Would it make you happy if I said that all religions of the world except Islam and Ahmadiyya are false? I am ready to say that to make you happy.

Sikhism: Did Nanak proclaim to be Guru, please?

Dear Obstinate Paarsurrey, before you posted twice asking this question, I had given you the reason for this in my post # 45 as to what we in India think of claims without any evidence - a strategy of snake-oil sellers, a work of charlatans; and you still ask the question! You seem to be a unique creation. In India, those whom we consider holy people never make claims. They are most humble of men.

 

[paarsurrey]

I told that jack*** I would NOT be answering his ridiculous questions - as many have noticed - all he seeks to do is undermine other faiths without examining his own - I am not willing to engage with that

I have challenged him before and as @danieldemol says - he ignores answers and speaks in a circular language

Let me tell you once and for all - the SGGS is collection of poems and hymns from different individuals regarded as holy and and as worshippers of the lord in whatever form - there is reference to Allah (Shaikh Fareed) and Narayan (Naamdev) and both (Kabir) as well as those of the 5 individuals out of the 9 that followed Nanak - it is not predictive of future events nor a history book by any stretch of imagination

I call Sikhism a philosophy based on Adwaita Vedanta and the vast majority of the SGGS is a confirmation of that if one takes it in context

Like @Vinayaka said you will not find "claims" about anything unlike Mirza Ahmad - and @paarsurrey - you are wrong about the fact that he did not have disciples in his time - look up Bhai Bala (a hindu) and Bhai Mardana (a Muslim) - do your bl**** research before posting unfounded statements

The Guru's were humble to the point where the 10th Guru Gobind Singh had this to say:

Jo Hum Ko Parmeshwar Uchar Hai
Tay Sabh Narak Kund Mah Par Hai
Mo Ko Daas Tavan Kaa Jaano
Yaa Mai Bhed Na Runch Pachhaano
Mai Ho Param Purkh Ko Daasa
Dekhan Aayo Jagat Tamaasa
(Bachittar Natak)

Those who address me as God
Shall fall into the pit of hell.
Treat me as a servant of the Lord
And entertain no doubt about it.
I am only a slave of the Lord. I have
only come to witness the Lord's play (Lila).

I am done with you - you are going on my "ignore" list



That is an incredibly arrogant, ignorant and immodest statement not to speak of openly proselytizing

You do not ask someone that has everything they want to go looking for something else is why

Because Guru Nanak came first and said whatever there was to say - the question IMO should be reversed "Why should anyone follow Baha'u'llah - when all he said was already said - answer that first - what is "new and revolutionary" about what Baha'u'llah said that the dharmic faiths do not already have. Give me one point - just one - if you can - else I shall accept the fact that you are misguided and indoctrinated and a not-so-sly proselytizer at that or at best a hypocrite.

The Sikhs had 10 Guru's to refine and hone the philosophy to a sharp needle that cuts through Maya if followed correctly. What did the charlatan that you follow do? Proclaim himself to be the return of x y and z - yes in India we call them frauds and charlatans

The Sikh philosophy is pretty simple - 3 tenets anyone can follow

1. Kirit Karo (work hard and honestly)
2. Wand Shako (share what you have with other fellow creatures)
3. Naam Japo (remember the lord)

So why should I leave a faith that is the pure distillation of Adwaita and "accept Baha'u'llah" who I regard as nothing more than a faker and a fraud?

"@paarsurrey - you are wrong about the fact that he (Nanak) did not have disciples in his time - look up Bhai Bala (a hindu) and Bhai Mardana (a Muslim) "

Welcome for one's input in the thread, please.

I searched but could not locate where in Nanak's hymns/words in the Granth, Mardana and or Bala have been mentioned by Nanak.

It is important, I understand, to refer to the roots as mentioned by Nanak:

"Whoever abandons the branches, and clings to the true root, enjoys true ecstasy within his mind." Granth Page 1033 maaroo mehlaa 1.
Maaroo, First Mehl

Please help me and provide reference from the root Nanak, please. Right,please?

Regards

 

[ManSinha]

Why do you have hadiths?

You cannot or choose not to read very well do you?

Let me tell you once and for all - the SGGS is collection of poems and hymns from different individuals regarded as holy and and as worshippers of the lord in whatever form - there is reference to Allah (Shaikh Fareed) and Narayan (Naamdev) and both (Kabir) as well as those of the 5 individuals out of the 9 that followed Nanak - it is not predictive of future events nor a history book by any stretch of imagination

I already answered your question - either you are illiterate and cannot read or you choose not to or choose not to understand and keep asking the same useless questions again and again

I ask you - what is your motivation for asking these inane questions?

Either answer the questions I posed to you directly in blue or we are done

 

[Vinayaka]

Why do you have hadiths?

You cannot or choose not to read very well do you?



I already answered your question - either you are illiterate and cannot read or you choose not to or choose not to understand and keep asking the same useless questions again and again

I ask you - what is your motivation for asking these inane questions?

Either answer the questions I posed to you directly in blue or we are done

MS, You don't need to be defending your faith against silly suggestions and false assumptions. All sensible people know that Sikhism is a wonderful religion full of great people. I strongly urge you to just drop it. If nobody responds, it'll be over. Sometimes the best response is no response.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
My question in the OP is about Nanak from his contents in the Granth specifically. Please look into it. Right, please?


The point is that Nanak said as I understand that G-d is Guru and he is only His disciple/slave.
Nanak did not say that he was the "First Guru", as our Sikhism friends want us to believe and in this way creating a space for a line of self-made "gurus" right from Angad to Gobind, please.
I understand that Angad promoted Nanak as First Guru, so that he could claim to be the Second Guru, while Nanak did not make anybody his successor.
If yes, then kindly quote from Nanak's words/hymns in the Granth, please.
Right,please?
Anybody, please

Right now I am at Page 1034 of 1430 of Granth and I quote from Nanak:

"I* drink in the Ambrosial Nectar, given by the True Guru. I do not know any other second or third. He is the One, Unique, Infinite and Endless Lord; He evaluates all beings and places some in His treasury. || 12 ||
*Nanak
PAGE 1034 - Gurmukhi to English Translation and Phonetic Transliteration of Siri Guru Granth Sahib.
I understand that Nanak's true Guru or First Guru was One G-d, as I understand. Nanak did not claim to be Guru or First Guru, as I understand.
And Nanak denies or doesn't know of any second or third.
Is it correct to express that Nanak denies guru-ship of Angad and Amar Das , here, as I understand?
PAGE 1034 - Gurmukhi to English Translation and Phonetic Transliteration of Siri Guru Granth Sahib.
Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

why so many large quotes?

I will see in what you have posted, different things from what other see, but I do see what is posted through the Message of Baha'u'llah. Thus I see many wonderful aspects, I also see aspects that are the domain of a Messenger.

Regards Tony

One aspect is to introduce one to Granth and especially to Nanak's hymns/words in it.
Has one already read it, please?
If not, then please find sometime to read it. It will benefit one, no compulsion however. Right, please?

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

One aspect is to introduce one to Granth and especially to Nanak's hymns/words in it.
Has one already read it, please?
If not, then please find sometime to read it. It will benefit one, no compulsion however. Right, please?

Regards

There is no compulsion in religion, yes indeed.

What can I say paarsurrey, I see the greatest song to date has now been sung, and that all the songs of the past were dedicated in praise to and of this song!

We are now part of the Chorus.

Regards Tony