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SimWorld without suffering

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
The whole "Problem of Evil" argument is silly, and always has me pulling my hair out every time it comes up. And to ignore the interconnectedness of things, and treat one bit of the world, suffering, like it exists in isolation, is unrealistic.

But carry on. ;)

It's not silly at all to show the contradiction between a set of assumed characteristics.

I don't think you grasp what the point of it is... it isn't to treat suffering in isolation.

To clarify, it's the same as pointing out that someone who looks at three points and says "It's a square" that their assumed characteristics are not in line with reality.
 
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Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
The whole "Problem of Evil" argument is silly, and always has me pulling my hair out every time it comes up. And to ignore the interconnectedness of things, and treat one bit of the world, suffering, like it exists in isolation, is unrealistic.

And counter-productive: life is a ride on a roller coaster, it's scary, it's exciting, it's fun... it goes up, it goes down, it whips you around corners...

To pick out any one section of track and say "this is good", "this is bad", "Gee I hope we go up around the next corner instead of down" "lets discuss the problem of unexpected free falls..." kind of misses the point: the real joy is in the ride itself, the whole thing. Not just the parts we're already familar and comfortable with (if we really preferred those we'd never get out of our barcaloungers).

Not knowing what's coming next, and especially: not knowing how well you're going to be able to cope with it, is a major part of the fun.

But carry on. ;)

People never need any encouragement in that regard. :p
(I guess that's part of the fun too)
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
And counter-productive: life is a ride on a roller coaster, it's scary, it's exciting, it's fun... it goes up, it goes down, it whips you around corners...

To pick out any one section of track and say "this is good", "this is bad", "Gee I hope we go up around the next corner instead of down" "lets discuss the problem of unexpected free falls..." kind of misses the point: the real joy is in the ride itself, the whole thing. Not just the parts we're already familar and comfortable with (if we really preferred those we'd never get out of our barcaloungers).

Not knowing what's coming next, and especially: not knowing how well you're going to be able to cope with it, is a major part of the fun.

That's not what the Problem of Evil is though.

The PoE isn't a bunch of whiny, "Ohmigod, why is this stuff so crappy, whyyyyy."

It's a logical argument that demonstrates a contradiction in a set of assumed propositions: that God is omnipotent, that God is omniscient, that God is benevolent, that God created the universe, that God exists, and that suffering exists.

A contradiction arises when all of those are put together, therefore one or more of the premises is false.

It's just like if someone were to say, "The oak tree is taller than the elm tree, and the elm tree is taller than the spruce. However, the spruce tree is taller than the oak tree." If we're talking about only three trees and all things are equal (measured from the ground to the top of the tree, etc.) then one or more of that set of propositions MUST be false.

That's what the PoE does. It shows that given a set of propositions, a contradiction arises and thus one (or more) of them must be false. That's all.
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
It's not silly at all to show the contradiction between a set of assumed characteristics.
I get it --but I call it bashing your head against a brick wall. And I don't enjoy watching people do that. ;)

I don't think you grasp what the point of it is... it isn't to treat suffering in isolation.
Your "___ could take suffering out of the world" argument does.

To clarify, it's the same as pointing out that someone who looks at three points and says "It's a square" that their assumed characteristics are not in line with reality.
Well, for me it's the same as watching someone declare "there are an indeterminate number of people somewhere out there who believe a square has three points, and I'm going to spend a great deal of time and energy to demonstrate this is incorrect!" :)
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
The "God done it" possibly sufferless world is a straw man. I'm preferential to the actual Problem of Evil, which simply demonstrates that "benevolence" is not one of "God"'s characteristics. Which it isn't.

Trust me, the Problem of Evil is so much better than this. I'll go back to my hair pulling now.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
There's a difference between playing a game for pleasure and simulating a universe.

Sure is: one involves the players and the other involves the programmer. What's your point?

The universe can still be fun without suffering.

But not without challenge, and every challenge comes with the inherent risk of suffering.

For instance, imagine if you were in this simworld and you were playing Grand Theft Auto (WITH the detection rules). You'd experience challenge, but you wouldn't suffer yourself.

Not sure what you're suggesting here but it sounds like you're talking about a game within a game: a sim-world that you can log into where your character can log into a game within the game: a sim-sim-world.

Aside from the obvious redundancy, I think if it had any effect open your perspective at all, all it would accomplish would be to remove you one more level from the necessary catharsis; the real fun in playing a sim-game is letting yourself forget that it's a game.

And to some extent, you do forget: if you've ever played any of these games you know that certain circumstances and situations within the sim-world will get your blood pumping faster, make the hair on the back of your neck stand up, cause you to breath harder and faster, maybe even illicit a sweat. Even though there's no actual physical danger involved, your body reacts as if there were, ie., part of your physiology thinks it's real.

Same thing while watching a good movie: certain situations effect you emotionally and physically, even though you know it isn't real. That's the sign of a good movie or a game worth playing: the level of catharsis. Without it, what's the point?

And probably most important for the purposes of this topic: if you'll notice, there isn't a game or movie that doesn't involve some sort of crisis for the protagonists. Doesn't matter if it's drama, comedy, musical, or Walt Disney, crisis is an indispensable element; without it what would you have? I mean who would bother to watch a movie that started out with "everything just peachy here" developed into "still just fine, thanks for asking
icon14.gif
" and ended with "Boy, sure am glad nothing bad happened"? Answer: nobody, that's why they don't make movies like that.

Why does the programmer of OUR world find it necessary to program child leukemia into the mix?

Looking at the bigger picture: obviously, we want disease as well . Not for ourselves as individuals, of course, but as a fact of life for the species as a whole. Consider that every time we conquer an infectious disease we replace it with an degenerative one. We find a cure for smallpox, we come up with diabetes. We get rid of colora and typhoid, we start inflicting heart disease and cancer on ourselves through our lifestyle choices. Why?

How many of our modern-day health problems are self-inflicted?: the result of choices that we've made? Risks that we (as a society) have decided to take in exchange for the benefits of industrialization? Or that we (as individuals) have decided to take for the sake of convenience and self-indulgence? At this point in our history, almost all of them.

Does that make our "sim" fun?

Why do you keep using the word "fun"? That's way too small a box to fit this all in.

Should we not bother "playing" our sim if there are no leukemia rules?? I don't think anyone would argue so!

Not sure what you're asking here (sorry, but the double negative is making this one too slippery).

Can you rephrase this?
 

Gloone

Well-Known Member
The program was created before allowing an abort program functionality. HA!!!!!!!!!
gloone: 100000 - simworld: 3000
:computer:
 

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
It couldn't by the rules of the world.

Maybe they'd be able to say mean things to one another or maybe someone will fall in love with someone who doesn't return the feeling.

But the fact would remain that no one could murder someone else, or rape them, or stab them, or succumb to tornadoes or old age or birth defects.

That's the question: why does a benevolent God create the capacity for those things I just mentioned?

Suffering is inherent to earthly existence because everything will always be unsatisfactory. Even people who live in opulence and have every conceivable comfort are not fully satisfied. Why is that? Why are people never completely satisfied with their situation?
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Well, for me it's the same as watching someone declare "there are an indeterminate number of people somewhere out there who believe a square has three points, and I'm going to spend a great deal of time and energy to demonstrate this is incorrect!" :)

Hahahahaha touché.

It's the OCD in me. I'm very pedantic. Has anyone noticed?
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
The "God done it" possibly sufferless world is a straw man. I'm preferential to the actual Problem of Evil, which simply demonstrates that "benevolence" is not one of "God"'s characteristics. Which it isn't.

Trust me, the Problem of Evil is so much better than this. I'll go back to my hair pulling now.

It's not a straw man, it's a direct response to 99% of the theodical responses you'd get if you gave someone the PoE as Epicurus put it.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
That's not what the Problem of Evil is though.

I know what the PoE is...

The PoE isn't a bunch of whiny, "Ohmigod, why is this stuff so crappy, whyyyyy."

...and I disagree. It's whining dressed up as a logical, philosophical argument.

The whole thing pre-supposes that suffering is bad.

This is one of those topics hat keeps coming up and a few times I've asked people to explain objectively why suffering is inherently bad. All I've ever gotten is some version of "Because it hurts".

Well duh, didn't hurt, it wouldn't be suffering.


It's a logical argument that demonstrates a contradiction in a set of assumed propositions: that God is omnipotent, that God is omniscient, that God is benevolent, that God created the universe, that God exists, and that suffering exists.

And again: all contingent on the presumption that suffering is "bad".


A contradiction arises when all of those are put together, therefore one or more of the premises is false.

Or that at least one of the variables in the equation is an unknown quantity.

It's just like if someone were to say, "The oak tree is taller than the elm tree, and the elm tree is taller than the spruce. However, the spruce tree is taller than the oak tree." If we're talking about only three trees and all things are equal (measured from the ground to the top of the tree, etc.) then one or more of that set of propositions MUST be false.

Nah, moral judgments are never that cut and dry. there's always some element of subjective preference trying to pass itself off as an absolute; in this case, again, that suffering is bad.

That's what the PoE does. It shows that given a set of propositions, a contradiction arises and thus one (or more) of them must be false. That's all.

Or that our understanding of the variables involved is faulty and incomplete (which I believe to be the closest thing we'll ever find to an absolute in a discussion like this)
 

Reptillian

Hamburgler Extraordinaire
I've come to realize that a world without suffering is a world without need for wisdom, courage, moderation, justice, or indeed any virtue at all.
 

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
I know what the PoE is...



...and I disagree. It's whining dressed up as a logical, philosophical argument.

The whole thing pre-supposes that suffering is bad.

This is one of those topics hat keeps coming up and a few times I've asked people to explain objectively why suffering is inherently bad. All I've ever gotten is some version of "Because it hurts".

Well duh, didn't hurt, it wouldn't be suffering.




And again: all contingent on the presumption that suffering is "bad".




Or that at least one of the variables in the equation is an unknown quantity.



Nah, moral judgments are never that cut and dry. there's always some element of subjective preference trying to pass itself off as an absolute; in this case, again, that suffering is bad.



Or that our understanding of the variables involved is faulty and incomplete (which I believe to be the closest thing we'll ever find to an absolute in a discussion like this)

Yeah, I definitely see your point. Suffering is fantastic! All those babies crying because their insides are melting are just a bunch of whiners. When I read about the holocaust I think, "Wow, that was so fantastic and necessary!":rolleyes:

Bravo.
 
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Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
Well, for me it's the same as watching someone declare "there are an indeterminate number of people somewhere out there who believe a square has three points, and I'm going to spend a great deal of time and energy to demonstrate this is incorrect!" :)

Except these people make up the majority of the people on the planet. Their beliefs have caused lots of harm to many different people through the centuries. If the idea of God is going to invade every facet of our lives by saying gays don't have the same rights as straight people, then we have every right to discuss it.

What is more akin to someone banging their head against a wall is seeing someone stoop to the, "Why do you care what we think," argument every time someone show a demonstrable flaw in there belief system. It almost sounds like a cry of defeat, but that could just be me.
 

mohammed_beiruti

Active Member
To summarize:

- Rules can apply to different circumstances in a program. A truck can have inertia in all circumstances unless it collides with a person, at which point the truck can come to a full stop without throwing the driver out the window since there's no inertia under that circumstance. Same goes for swinging a baseball bat: baseball would be completely possible, but if you swing a bat at someone's face it would come to a dead stop without exerting force on the person. The game world would still be 100% consistent with these additional rules. It's possible to do, so why hasn't God done it?

- Innocent victims are the result of collision detection and inertia that God programmed into the world. It's entirely possible for God to remove either of these things to make it so that an innocent person couldn't be raped or stabbed or shot by simply, say, removing inertia or collision detection from the bullet by adding an extra script to the code that says something like "If the bullet makes contact with a human, set inertia to 0" or something like that. Still completely possible.

- Doing these things that I'm talking about do not remove free will. Everyone in such a world would still be completely free of will, assuming free will exists. What's the argument then?

Why the hell hasn't God done this unless He is a malevolent/negligent creator?

in this case all of us will be rewrded heaven, but before getting the prize we shall paly an amusing game.
 
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