What does forgiveness feel like if it's not the act of forgiving?
What's the difference between that feeling and say love or compassion?
As for rejecting, people are only rejecting the christian view of forgiveness (christ/sacrifice/blood/creator/etc) not forgiveness itself.
To forgive is to stop holding others and ourselves to account for past misdeeds. It's the letting go of resentment. And it's no different for Christians than it is for anyone else.
When you say others are wrong, I put you in the same spot that you could be wrong too. So, it's hard to differentiate who is wrong and who isn't since we all have the ability to be confused over things.
But differentiate you must. Because it's impossible to live life without values.
The problem with non-believers isn't forgiven and feeling they need to be forgiven, it's the belief in god and the christian perspective in order to achieve this. Each person has their own views and practices of forgiveness. Why do christians need to think other people are wrong.
Wrong is wrong. That's just the way it is. Forgiveness does not require anyone else's participation, nor their consent. We can give it and receive it freely, so long as we do so, honestly and sincerely. This isn't "Christian dogma". It's just a fact of our reality.
You may be blind too--judging other people again. Hard to find the point when you consider people blind rather than just different.
Blind is blind. I didn't invent it. So stop trying to blame me for it.
It's good that these things aren't owned by the christian faith.
I assume you mean the Christian religion. And yes, it's good that religion does not "own" what they often presume and clam to own. Because they really seem to like to withhold it from others for the sake of their own power and control. Show me a man who thinks he's closer to God than everyone else, and I'll show you a murderous demagogue-in-waiting.
I don't understand how they are wrong for not needing to ask "other people" for forgiveness. Why can't they forgive themselves?
They are wrong for thinking they don't need to be forgiven, because they've done nothing (wrong) but serve their own selfish desires. Which is why they think they exist, and what they think everyone else is doing.
This right/wrong isn't helping here. I know people are ignorant of your belief, but that doesn't mean they are wrong in general. I don't know how you benefit spiritually from that type of thinking.
We all benefit from (Christian) spiritual thinking and behavior, just as we all suffer from selfish, 'dumb-animal' thinking and behavior.
Where we part is my comment has no god component to it.
Whatever. "God" is just a word. It's the ideals that matter. I'm not a religious Christian. I'm a philosophical Christian. So the term "God" carries no magical significance for me.
Kindness and love are in all of man kind and many people know this with and without god. So, obviously, there needs to be something outside (creator so have you) that christians look to.
Actually, the big ideological revelation that Christianity gave to the world is the idea of that GOD EXISTS WITHIN US (Christ). And along with this revelation comes the promise that if we will seek out this "Divine Spirit within", and allow it to dictate our thoughts and actions, we will be
healed and saved from ourselves. And when enough of us have chosen this way of being, the whole world will be healed and saved (from us). Once we understand that "Divine Spirit" to be the spirit of love, and forgiveness, and kindness, and generosity, we don't really even need the whole God and religion, thing. Though if we prefer to keep it, that's fine, too.
Jesus was Jew. And he remained a Jew. He told the other Jews of his day that they should remain Jews, too. Yet his message (his revelation, and promise) was for everyone, then and now. And Jews, then and now, do not believe in the need for religious conversion. Jesus, himself, would be perfectly fine with your atheism. Jews have always understood and respected that everyone has their own pathway to "God".
The only reason Christians are evangelical is because that promise of salvation depends on our collective participation. And unfortunately, they confuse their religion with it. And so they think we all need to accept their religion to be "saved". But we don't. Salvation is available to us all, through that Divine Spirit within us; religion or no religion.
How do you tell the difference between "christian" goodness from the holy spirit and the goodness, from say, a Pagan religion or Eastern view?
I don't. Good is good. Religion is just a set of tools. We can use religion to help us seek the good, or not use it. Whichever works best for us. It's not the tools that matter. It's the result.
I understand forgiving others. I don't understand why you need and expect someone (say god) to forgive you.
I don't. When I become forgiving, I am also forgiven. The forgiveness goes both ways. And God isn't holding anything against me, regardless. (Christians say that's because Jesus died for our sins, but I, personally, don't believe God ever held anything against us that Jesus needed to die for. Jesus died because we killed the messenger, in an attempt at killing the message. But fortunately for us all, the message lived on.)
I'm hung up on asking for forgiveness when it's up to the other person to choose to forgive. In the godly sense, if god already forgiven you (unmerited favor), there's no reason to ask for forgiveness. Apology, yes. Gratitude. But not forgiveness.
People ask God for forgiveness because they often find it difficult to forgive. Most prayers are not really about asking the "Santa-God" to give us something we don't have or deserve. They're about asking God to help us find what we need within ourselves, to be, and to do, better. In this case, to help us find that spirit of forgiveness within us, and to help us surrender our anger, and hurt pride, and resentment, in the light of it. Forgiveness is often not as easy as simply saying "I forgive". Sometimes it's really, really hard. And that's why people pray to their God for it. They are praying for God's help at finding and embodying that forgiving spirit.
I'm stuck on expectation not consent.
Yes, but there's no need for these. Forgiveness is an "inside job", as they say. Sometimes it's not an easy one, though. (Same goes for embodying love, and kindness, and generosity, ...)
