Sin and Repentance

[BilliardsBall]

Can you show me this in the Hebrew? I don't recall the word "messiah" in chapter 53. You wouldn't happen to be citing not-Tanach concepts, would you? In fact, the m-sh-ch root appears, (AFAICT) 2 times in the book of Isaiah, once as a reference to Koresh and once to Isaiah himself.

Ignoring your mathematical hyperbole, the Tanach says that the entire corpus of Christian belief and text is junk.

So, no, it doesn't say it -- a translation inserts it there. Why not quote the Hebrew?

Ah, the Hebrew doesn't support your erroneous claims. Now I get it,

It actually seems like introducing your English fiction is therefore the only way for you to claim the fulfillment of anything at all.

That's all uber crazy. You start with the mistake about Daniel and his role, then about the idea of atonement by death (and I will let others discuss the year 30 as compared to other claimed years), and then you cite the bizarre and arbitrary Ezekiel foolishness (ignoring the plethora of scholarship which contests the historical accuracy of years claimed, Newton's historical claims about years, and the issue of the discrepancy between 2 sets of computations regarding the overall structure of history) which relies on the fiction of 360 days in order to come up with a "prediction" which holds no water.

Good job. That's a lot of silliness in one post!

Thank you for helping me adhere all the more closely to Messiah.

[/QUOTE]

In the Hebrew are hundreds of specific prophecies to help us identify the Messiah.

It is not mathematical hyperbole to say:

1) Tanakh says thousands of times some variant of "THIS is God's Word!"

2) Talmud, Zohar, etc. say this ZERO times.

I'm still waiting for you to answer simple questions, such as "Why are some Jews dying near wealthy people a prophecy?"

 

[Harel13]

Was it shed for someone else?

I donate blood and blood platelets whenever I can.

 

[rosends]

In the Hebrew are hundreds of specific prophecies to help us identify the Messiah.

There are some,but ones you think are supposed to, might not.

It is not mathematical hyperbole to say:

1) Tanakh says thousands of times some variant of "THIS is God's Word!"

Really? Show me one and I'll look up to see how often that phrase is used in al of Tanach. TIA.

2) Talmud, Zohar, etc. say this ZERO times.

If you think this then you have never studied the mishna of Yadayim, Eduyot or Pe'ah. Do you want to make any other claims that are easily proven wrong by someone who has actually studied the subject?

I'm still waiting for you to answer simple questions, such as "Why are some Jews dying near wealthy people a prophecy?"

If you see it as a prophecy (which is arguable) and want to understand it as you wrote it (which is arguable, and don't see that it has happened historically, then you are being wilfully blind. Here are some explanations which will make the historical eents more plain to you:

ולדעת המושל מסר עצמו בכל מיני מות שגזר עליו על לא רצה לקבל עליו כפירה לעשות רעה ולחמוס חמס ככל הגוים אשר היה גר ביניהם:

שמסר עצמו להסכים עם דעת העשיר המושל בכל מיני מיתות שגזר עליו למען יעמוד באמונתו

ר״ל מושל כי על פי הרוב ימשול העשיר:

כי גם העשיר הורגים אותו בעבור עשרו והוא נהרג לא בעבור רשע שהיה בו אלא בעבור עושר שהיה לו, וטעם במותיו, לשון רבים כי מיתות רבות יעשו לו יש מהם נשרפים ויש מהם נהרגים ויש מהם נסקלים ולכל מוסרים עצמם על יחוד השם

if that doesn't make it clear to you then you just don't want to see. Or you can't.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Sin and Redemption are as undefined as the consequences.

I have accepted that it was a mistake to include 'most faiths' as understanding sin and repentance.

The Bible, however, provides a teaching on this subject that is, lMO, comprehensive and intelligible.

 

[Redemptionsong]

You have just stated the key thing here, which is why the end of the day debate on this topic ends up the way it does. By distancing themselves from the Hebrew text they are able to just make up whatever they want.

This is just not true. It's a statement that overlooks the fact that the writers of the New Testament were not Greeks but Jews. They understood the Hebrew Scriptures (and Septuagint), from which they quoted, and they took their spiritual lead from the Holy Spirit sent by God at Pentecost.

It's the reaction of Jews to Christian preaching that has led to Jewish 'clarification' of identity and position. This attempt at 'distancing' is now leading Jews to reject all 'suffering servant' prophecies, whilst focusing, instead, on the future Messiah and the millennial sabbath of rest.

But how can this world peace possibly happen if the 'suffering servant' has not gathered the flock and taken away sin?

The suffering servant, Jesus, was not given a kingdom until his ascension to heaven [Daniel 7:13,14]. His recognition as Messiah by Christians is by faith. Consequently, Christians believe that Messiah will come from heaven at his return. Meanwhile, Jews still await the birth of a Messiah on earth, the son of David. Some day soon, one group or the other is going to be proved wrong!

IMO, Jews are going to have great difficulty proving that their Messiah is not an anti-Christ. Who will decide, and how?

 

[Harel13]

Jews are going to have great difficulty proving that their Messiah is not an anti-Christ.

I don't see why we would need to do this.

 

[Rival]

This is just not true. It's a statement that overlooks the fact that the writers of the New Testament were not Greeks but Jews.

There are many unlearned Jews who write many things. George Soros is a Jew. Seth Rogen is a Jew. Ed Miliband is a Jew.

They understood the Hebrew Scriptures (and Septuagint), from which they quoted

Is that why they constantly quoted verses out of context and stripped away any meaning the original text gave them? Is this why Paul butchers whole verses like this,

Isaiah 59:20,
“And a Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression,” declares the LORD.

Paul pretending to quote it in Romans 11:26,
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

This is not saying the same thing at all. So no, this is poor knowledge if you can even call it knowledge. To many, it looks like deliberate change to support his view.

and they took their spiritual lead from the Holy Spirit sent by God at Pentecost.

This means nothing to any Jew anywhere and cannot be proven.

It's the reaction of Jews to Christian preaching that has led to Jewish 'clarification' of identity and position.

No. This is just wrong. The Jews have been studying their Scriptures since they were written. The only reason anyone expected a Messiah is because the Jews said there would be one and the expectations were and are well known. They haven't changed. The Christians were the ones who changed it with ideas that are found nowhere in the Tanakh.

. This attempt at 'distancing' is now leading Jews to reject all 'suffering servant' prophecies, whilst focusing, instead, on the future Messiah and the millennial sabbath of rest.

You need to read more Jewish commentaries and stop attacking a strawman Judaism Christianity has created.

But how can this world peace possibly happen if the 'suffering servant' has not gathered the flock and taken away sin?

The Messiah will usher in the epoch of peace.

The suffering servant, Jesus, was not given a kingdom until his ascension to heaven [Daniel 7:13,14]. His recognition as Messiah by Christians is by faith.

Again, we don't care about your faith.

Consequently, Christians believe that Messiah will come from heaven at his return.

A 'return' that, again, is a Christian idea found nowhere in Tanakh.

Meanwhile, Jews still await the birth of a Messiah on earth, the son of David. Some day soon, one group or the other is going to be proved wrong!

Yes.

IMO, Jews are going to have great difficulty proving that their Messiah is not an anti-Christ. Who will decide, and how?

You clearly have no idea what the Jewish idea of Messiah is.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

This is just not true. It's a statement that overlooks the fact that the writers of the New Testament were not Greeks but Jews. They understood the Hebrew Scriptures (and Septuagint), from which they quoted, and they took their spiritual lead from the Holy Spirit sent by God at Pentecost.

I don't see any evidence of that they understood Hebrew. If the authors of the NT did understand Hebrew, as you claim, it is interesting that no text from their era that is in Hebrew survived. Given that the Septuagint, according to the legend, was only of the Torah and not the rest of the Tanakh we can see why they didn't get very far in the Jewish world with what they were promoting. Also, given that the original Jewish beleivers in Jesus disappeared off the historical map within 2 generations of their start - this would show that when a Jew attaches themselve to such a movement it doesn't go very well for very long. Peter for example, is described in the NT as having had a family. Where are his jewish descendants now?

Concerning that "Pentecost" claim. I have been asking this for a bit and maybe you can provide an answer. Acts 2:1-11 claims that Jews from Parthia, and Medes, and Elam, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyren witnessed the events mentioned in the text. Can anyone produce the names of a few of the Jews from those regions and their 1st hand accounts of what took place? If you don't have 1st hand accounts from those regions can you provide 2nd, 3rd, etc. accounts from Jews who accounted for the events mentioned in Acts 2:1-11.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

IMO, Jews are going to have great difficulty proving that their Messiah is not an anti-Christ. Who will decide, and how?

As Harel13 pointed out. We don't have a requirement to prove a "messiah" in any form and fashion. It is important to note that "the anti-christ" thing is a Christian thing found in Christian literature. So, though we appreciate your concern we Jews will be allright. You don't have to worry about us. We will make our way and figure things out just fine.

Besides, if I remember correctly there are some versions of the NT revelations text that instead of 666 have 616 in them.

666, 616 and 45

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Here we are. You guys may have a few problems trying to figure things out for yourself. How about we Jews just back on out and let you guys figure this out among yourselves.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

His recognition as Messiah by Christians is by faith. Consequently, Christians believe that Messiah will come from heaven at his return. Meanwhile, Jews still await the birth of a Messiah on earth, the son of David. Some day soon, one group or the other is going to be proved wrong!

Okay. So how about we all stop missionizing and debating and just sit back and wait and see what happens?

BTW. You say some day soon? How soon? One week, two months, a few years, a couple of decades, another 1,000 years?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The suffering servant, Jesus, was not given a kingdom until his ascension to heaven [Daniel 7:13,14].

Well of course you came to that conclusion. You are using a Christian English translation in which you skipped all of Daniel 1-6 and Daniel 7:1-12 and also the rest of Daniel.

All we Jews have to work with is the below.

דנייאל פרק ז
א בשנת חדה, לבלאשצר מלך בבל, דניאל חלם חזה, וחזוי ראשה על-משכבה; באדין חלמא כתב, ראש מלין אמר. ב ענה דניאל ואמר, חזה הוית בחזוי עם-ליליא; וארו, ארבע רוחי שמיא, מגיחן, לימא רבא. ג וארבע חיון רברבן, סלקן מן-ימא, שנין, דא מן-דא. ד קדמיתא כאריה, וגפין די-נשר לה; חזה הוית עד די-מריטו גפיה (גפה) ונטילת מן-ארעא, ועל-רגלין כאנש הקימת, ולבב אנש, יהיב לה. ה וארו חיוה אחרי תנינה דמיה לדב, ולשטר-חד הקמת, ותלת עלעין בפמה, בין שניה (שנה); וכן אמרין לה, קומי אכלי בשר שגיא. ו באתר דנה חזה הוית, וארו אחרי כנמר, ולה גפין ארבע די-עוף, על-גביה (גבה); וארבעה ראשין לחיותא, ושלטן יהיב לה. ז באתר דנה חזה הוית בחזוי ליליא, וארו חיוה רביעיה (רביעאה) דחילה ואימתני ותקיפא יתירה ושנין די-פרזל לה רברבן, אכלה ומדקה, ושארא ברגליה (ברגלה) רפסה; והיא משניה, מן-כל-חיותא די קדמיה (קדמה), וקרנין עשר, לה. ח משתכל הוית בקרניא, ואלו קרן אחרי זעירה סלקת ביניהון (ביניהן), ותלת מן-קרניא קדמיתא, אתעקרו (אתעקרה) מן-קדמיה (קדמה); ואלו עינין כעיני אנשא, בקרנא-דא, ופם, ממלל רברבן. ט חזה הוית, עד די כרסון רמיו, ועתיק יומין, יתב; לבושה כתלג חור, ושער ראשה כעמר נקא, כרסיה שבבין די-נור, גלגלוהי נור דלק. י נהר די-נור, נגד ונפק מן-קדמוהי, אלף אלפים (אלפין) ישמשונה, ורבו רבון (רבבן) קדמוהי יקומון; דינא יתב, וספרין פתיחו. יא חזה הוית--באדין מן-קל מליא רברבתא, די קרנא ממללה; חזה הוית עד די קטילת חיותא, והובד גשמה, ויהיבת, ליקדת אשא. יב ושאר, חיותא, העדיו, שלטנהון; וארכה בחיין יהיבת להון, עד-זמן ועדן. יג חזה הוית, בחזוי ליליא, וארו עם-ענני שמיא, כבר אנש אתה הוא; ועד-עתיק יומיא מטה, וקדמוהי הקרבוהי. יד ולה יהב שלטן, ויקר ומלכו, וכל עממיא אמיא ולשניא, לה יפלחון; שלטנה שלטן עלם, די-לא יעדה, ומלכותה, די-לא תתחבל. {פ}​

 

[BilliardsBall]

There are some,but ones you think are supposed to, might not.

Really? Show me one and I'll look up to see how often that phrase is used in al of Tanach. TIA.

If you think this then you have never studied the mishna of Yadayim, Eduyot or Pe'ah. Do you want to make any other claims that are easily proven wrong by someone who has actually studied the subject?

If you see it as a prophecy (which is arguable) and want to understand it as you wrote it (which is arguable, and don't see that it has happened historically, then you are being wilfully blind. Here are some explanations which will make the historical eents more plain to you:

ולדעת המושל מסר עצמו בכל מיני מות שגזר עליו על לא רצה לקבל עליו כפירה לעשות רעה ולחמוס חמס ככל הגוים אשר היה גר ביניהם:

שמסר עצמו להסכים עם דעת העשיר המושל בכל מיני מיתות שגזר עליו למען יעמוד באמונתו

ר״ל מושל כי על פי הרוב ימשול העשיר:

כי גם העשיר הורגים אותו בעבור עשרו והוא נהרג לא בעבור רשע שהיה בו אלא בעבור עושר שהיה לו, וטעם במותיו, לשון רבים כי מיתות רבות יעשו לו יש מהם נשרפים ויש מהם נהרגים ויש מהם נסקלים ולכל מוסרים עצמם על יחוד השם

if that doesn't make it clear to you then you just don't want to see. Or you can't.

Your sophistry is showing. Simply answer this question:

It is recognized consistently by Jews and Gentiles that Isaiah made numerous prophecies. It is recognized by anyone who can read that Tanakh's major prophets speak . . . prophecies.

Why did Isaiah prophesy "Some Jews will die near transgressors, others will die near rich people, then after they die, will count their descendants?"

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Some day soon, one group or the other is going to be proved wrong!

Or you could both be wrong, you know. Most religions don't care about your messiah or the Jewish messiah.

 

[rosends]

It is recognized consistently by Jews and Gentiles that Isaiah made numerous prophecies. It is recognized by anyone who can read that Tanakh's major prophets speak . . . prophecies.

Actually, it is recognized by Jews that some of what Isaiah said was prophecy, and that prophecy doesn't necessarily mean "prediction of the future." Until you understand what Jews know, you will keep saying silly things. At this point, you clearly don't understand.

Why did Isaiah prophesy "Some Jews will die near transgressors, others will die near rich people, then after they die, will count their descendants?"

This means that you didn't read any of the explanations which answered the "why did Isaiah prophesy..." If you can't be bothered to read the answers then I can't help you.

 

[Harel13]

Actually, it is recognized by Jews that some of what Isaiah said was prophecy, and that prophecy doesn't necessarily mean "prediction of the future." Until you understand what Jews know, you will keep saying silly things. At this point, you clearly don't understand.

I would put it this way: the Hebrew words Nevuah, Re'iyah and Chizayon all mean different types of sight or different forms of visions. These words have been badly translated into English as prophecy, i.e. seeing the future.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I don't see why we would need to do this.

Then how are you to know who is the Messiah?

 

[Harel13]

Then how are you to know who is the Messiah?

We have a list of requirements...come on, you must have heard of this before, we say it on RF at least every other week...nothing on the list about the Messiah needing to prove to Christians he isn't an anti-Christ.

 

[Redemptionsong]

There are many unlearned Jews who write many things. George Soros is a Jew. Seth Rogen is a Jew. Ed Miliband is a Jew.


Is that why they constantly quoted verses out of context and stripped away any meaning the original text gave them? Is this why Paul butchers whole verses like this,

Isaiah 59:20,
“And a Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression,” declares the LORD.

Paul pretending to quote it in Romans 11:26,
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

This is not saying the same thing at all. So no, this is poor knowledge if you can even call it knowledge. To many, it looks like deliberate change to support his view.


This means nothing to any Jew anywhere and cannot be proven.


No. This is just wrong. The Jews have been studying their Scriptures since they were written. The only reason anyone expected a Messiah is because the Jews said there would be one and the expectations were and are well known. They haven't changed. The Christians were the ones who changed it with ideas that are found nowhere in the Tanakh.






You need to read more Jewish commentaries and stop attacking a strawman Judaism Christianity has created.


The Messiah will usher in the epoch of peace.


Again, we don't care about your faith.


A 'return' that, again, is a Christian idea found nowhere in Tanakh.


Yes.


You clearly have no idea what the Jewish idea of Messiah is.

So you don't deny that the Jewish Messiah, the one you await, is to be born on earth. So let's begin there. You can start to tell me what you believe will happen next. Will he grow up an ultra Orthodox Jew in Mea She'arim?

How do you distinguish the Jew born on earth as the true Messiah? Will he commit sin?

As regards Paul, you should do a little more research. He was a very well educated Jew, and spent much of his time attacking Christians before having his eyes opened (literally).

Paul's teaching is totally consistent with the message delivered by Jesus. And Jesus fulfilled all that the law demanded. His life proved his anointing.

 

[Rival]

So you don't deny that the Jewish Messiah, the one you await, is to be born on earth. So let's begin there. You can start to tell me what you believe will happen next. Will he grow up an ultra Orthodox Jew in Mea She'arim?

How do you distinguish the Jew born on earth as the true Messiah? Will he commit sin?

I am not going through this with you again.

As regards Paul, you should do a little more research. He was a very well educated Jew, and spent much of his time attacking Christians before having his eyes opened (literally).

His writings and misquotes tell a different tale.

Paul's teaching is totally consistent with the message delivered by Jesus. And Jesus fulfilled all that the law demanded. His life proved his anointing.

I don't care if his message is consistent with Jesus, Vishnu, Apollo or Ra. It's not consistent with the Tanakh.