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"Sir David Attenborough says humans have stopped evolving"

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Wait a minute, so are you going to argue against the fact that a dog and a cat are different kinds of animals? Lets suppose this conversation at a pet store

*You walk in the pet store and see an employee*

You: Excuse me sir, may I have a look at your cats.

Employee: Sure, follow me.

*You and employee goes to the "dog" section*

Employee: Here is what we have

You: Um, sir, I asked to see the cats, and these are dogs

Employee: Well, they are both mammals, aren't they?

You: But a dog is a different kind of mammal, sir

Employee: Kind? Unless you can clearly a concisely define what animals belong in what categories and why they belong there, your categorization of "kind" is meaningless.

*Notice the bold print is your quote*

Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

Yes, because what exactly makes a dog a different kind of mammal from a cat? There are plenty of traits very similar between dogs and cats.

Here's a good question, what is a Hyena? Dog Kind or Cat Kind?

What is a fungus? Plant Kind or Animal Kind.

What is an amoeba

Plant Kind? Animal Kind, Creeping Kind?
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Chiming in with Franklin,

Dogs, cats, lions, hyenas, ... all belong to the order Carnivora. It's a kind. Dogs and cats are both Carnivora kind.

The first carnivora was a miacid. Here's the miacid fossil: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Miacidae.JPG

That was before cats and dogs existed. It was the pro-cat-dog animal.

The miacid is the ancestor to dogs, and the ancestor to cats.
 
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Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Understood - you cant define it. They are ALL different from the others, some are more different than others. But in no way have you identified what kind means. Perhaps this nonsense works on a 6 year old who has no understanding of biology, someone you wish to indoctrinate before they actually understand science - but if you cannot provide a definition of your terms then they become without basis particularly when attempting to converse within a highly technical field such as biology.

Ok, so you wouldn't recognize the elephant as the different kind of animal. That is ok, I won't hold it against you. Look, as I keep stressing, an animal has never been observed producing a different kind of animal. Point blank, period. I don't care how long you claim it takes. It will never happen. If every living creature on earth disappear EXCEPT dogs, a million years later..you will still have dogs. There is no reason to think that a non-dog would arise from this population of dogs. None. Yet you are telling me that the dogs of today came from non-dogs of yesterday. Ridiculous.

No seriously, no way to differentiate the two such that one is valid and the other not - it is EXACTLY the same mechanism.

Well, why can we observe one and not the other?

you can call this evidence of a common designer if you like

I like.

How about answering the question rather than attempting to obfuscate and use red herrings in lieu of addressing the problem. Among the mountains of evidence of early earth life, there is absolutely NO evidence of any modern organisms. Why is there not?

And there isn't any evidence of transitional phrases either. Why is there not? And how and who is doing the dating?

As for life origins, there are multiple scientific hypotheses on the matter, none as well DEMONSTRATED as evolution, but I consider abiogenesis the most promising.

And I consider ID more promising, more logical, and more plausible.

That really is besides the point when we are discussing he diversity of life rather than it's origins though; in fact the ONLY people who conflate the two are a subset of those who believe in design because they view the two as synchronous, which there is absolutely no evidence for.

I am not conflating the two, I am merely saying that before you can have macroevolution you have to have a sustantiated theory for organic evolution, and right now you don't have either.

We do. Earliest lagomorph Gomphos (actually American Museum of Natural History is probably a better link) the major characteristic which determine this organisms categorization is the denture and mode of movement despite the animal looking more like a cross between a rabbit and a rat.

So you show me a drawing of something that looks like a rat/rabbit and tell me that this based on what you believe to be a transitional fossil? Ha. What about the other transitional fossils in between? Do you have any drawings of that? What bout transitional fossils of other organisms, and the steps in between? With all of these changes over the course of hundreds upon hundreds of millions of years, we should have wayyyy more transitional fossils than not. But we dont. Hmmm.

Transitional fossils are such because of how we define the species, which is through assigning labels to a certain set of characteristics, therefore there is USUALLY going to be a large number of organisms that are considered transitional. We actually have the fossilized remains of millions of so called 'missing links' in museums and universities and the like, this is the same argument that is trotted out every so often out of a lack of understanding of biology. Though I should state that there are indeed some transitions which we have a far smaller sample of organisms from, this makes it difficult to tell what the precise evolutionary path was during that particular transition, however it does nothing to undermine the validity of the theory of evolution.

Everyone knows that transitional fossils don't exist. If transitional fossils exists, we should have a transitional fossil record for every living organism today. We should have the transitional fossil of bears, elephants, cats, dogs, everything. We don't. And not only that, but how do you know whether or not that whatever you think MAY be a transitional fossil, may actually be a fossil of a specific but different kind of animal that died out? What determines the distinction?

Indeed! Which is why we cannot take them as infallible. What we can take as inerrant are the fossils which were there (though even there we exercise critical thinking and an awareness that they may not be a representative sample).

Right, we can only take them as fossils of animals that died. Nothing more, nothing less. To say anything beyond that is adding your presupposition to the evidence.

We can see it - there is no difference between micro evolution and macro evolution other than the difference that you are constructing in your own mind so as to enable you to accept one and deny the other - it is precisely the same mechanism.

Then I will ask again, why can we observe one and not the other??

Also, would you not concede that viewing a video of him performing the hook shot would also work as an observation?

Which is my point, video or up close and personal, I would making an observation based on what I see.

Because if a recording counts, we have that - its called DNA.

DNA is a genetical blueprint. How do you get specified information like this from a trial and error process?

Okay, so this has NOTHING to do with evolution or diversity of life. Got it. Then I am going to ignore this as it is an attempt to derail discussion.

If you don't know whether or not life can come from non-life, then you don't have a theory of evolution. I understand that this is a difficult subject for you and science, but it is a necessary evil.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
As asinine an explanation as they come. Moreover, I don't debate or even deal with the arguments of those not posting here on RF. Evidence, yes, but not arguments. So I couldn't care less what your Wayne Jackson has to say.

I offered a plausible explanation, and that is all that is needed. If you don't like it...well _________ (insert any of the dozens of sarcastic comments that has ever been made)

Irrelevant because it's not a scenario in which god is repentant---sorry---for what he has done. In your scenario here god was already of a mind to not punish you if you repented. If he wasn't then one has to assume your repentance controlled god's decisions. Think that's the case; you repent so god has to not punish you?

So let me get this straight...all non-Christians of today that will become Christians tomorrow are all Christians today to God, since he knows they will become Christians tomorrow? Ridiculous.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Yes, because what exactly makes a dog a different kind of mammal from a cat? There are plenty of traits very similar between dogs and cats.

A whale and an elephant are also mammals, and their traits couldn't be more different.

Here's a good question, what is a Hyena? Dog Kind or Cat Kind?

Maybe it is its own kind.

What is a fungus? Plant Kind or Animal Kind.

What is an amoeba

Plant Kind? Animal Kind, Creeping Kind?

Don't know.
 
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Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Chiming in with Franklin,

Dogs, cats, lions, hyenas, ... all belong to the order Carnivora. It's a kind. Dogs and cats are both Carnivora kind.

The first carnivora was a miacid. Here's the miacid fossil: File:Miacidae.JPG - Wikimedia Commons

That was before cats and dogs existed. It was the pro-cat-dog animal.

The miacid is the ancestor to dogs, and the ancestor to cats.

Speculations. Presuppositions. Interpretations. You mix those things together, stir it up. Sprinkle a little faith. Let it marinate. One nice big gumbo pot of scientific religion.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Speculations. Presuppositions. Interpretations. You mix those things together, stir it up. Sprinkle a little faith. Let it marinate. One nice big gumbo pot of scientific religion.

Scientific fact. The DNA has been analysed, and even many fossils have been found and studied.

You are free to run away from the evidence, I suppose. But it is dishonest to claim that it does not exist, and it reflects ill into you and your faith.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
A whale and an elephant are also mammals, and their traits couldn't be more different.



Maybe it is its own kind.



Don't know.

Which is why saying Kind isn't sufficient. They are both mammals, yet they look vastly different, yet Cats and Dogs are both mammals and they look similar. Hyena's are mammals and they look like dogs, but they aren't dogs. Chimpanzees are mammals and look nothing like elephants, dogs or whales, but they look like monkeys, but still look different. Humans are mammals and look like chimps, sharing many kinds. Would you consider chimps humankind or chimp kind? At one point do you make that variation?

It's why saying Kind has no actual value.

It's easier to use when we look at things on a phenotypic level, but even then it starts to fall apart. What are spiders? Insect kind? Or how about Scorpions? Insect kind?

What about Manatees? What kind are they?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I offered a plausible explanation, and that is all that is needed.
And as I said, an asinine one.


If you don't like it...well _________ (insert any of the dozens of sarcastic comments that has ever been made)
"Asinine" suffices.


So let me get this straight...all non-Christians of today that will become Christians tomorrow are all Christians today to God, since he knows they will become Christians tomorrow? Ridiculous.
From this response, and those you've made to others here it's obvious you' choose to go off topic to save yourself from having to address uncomfortable issues. So be it. If you can't cope, you can't cope. :shrug: But you can take comfort in the fact that you're not the first to resort to the tactic.

Take care and have a good day.
icon14.gif
 

philbo

High Priest of Cynicism
Speculations. Presuppositions. Interpretations. You mix those things together, stir it up. Sprinkle a little faith. Let it marinate. One nice big gumbo pot of scientific religion.
So how would you explain the existence of the miacid fossil, and the diverging lineage of fossils into cat-like and dog-like fossils?

A thought experiment for you: don't start with your own preconceptions - I realize you have a completely closed mind at the moment, but at least try to look at this with just a touch of openness. Ignore everything you think you know about evolution, the bible and ID, start with what has actually been found and see what you can make from that. Look at the fossils, their ages and shapes - if you don't have a nearby natural history museum, or insufficient google-fu, I'll find some examples for you.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Going back to the OP, I want to note that there is a strong movement proposing that one of the human diferentials is that its societal evolution has become one of cultural means, as much so if not more than genetic means.

I think it makes a lot of sense, personally. "Evolution for Everyone" by David Sloan Wilson is a pretty good text on the matter.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Wait a minute, so are you going to argue against the fact that a dog and a cat are different kinds of animals? Lets suppose this conversation at a pet store

*You walk in the pet store and see an employee*

You: Excuse me sir, may I have a look at your cats.

Employee: Sure, follow me.

*You and employee goes to the "dog" section*

Employee: Here is what we have

You: Um, sir, I asked to see the cats, and these are dogs

Employee: Well, they are both mammals, aren't they?

You: But a dog is a different kind of mammal, sir

Employee: Kind? Unless you can clearly a concisely define what animals belong in what categories and why they belong there, your categorization of "kind" is meaningless.

*Notice the bold print is your quote*

Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

Cats and dogs are different species of animals, and we know this because we have definitions of species which make practical distinctions between those two species. If I ask to see a "dog" that means I am asking to see a member of the SPECIES known as "dog".

Rather than rattling off another inane and preposterous hypothetical scenario-style strawman of my argument, perhaps you can actually address the issue and give a clear and concise definition of your terms. This level of intellectual dishonesty will not slide with me.

A whale and an elephant are also mammals, and their traits couldn't be more different.
And what "traits" are specifically required to identify two animals as belonging to two different "kinds"?
 
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FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Cats and dogs are different species of animals, and we know this because we have definitions of species which make practical distinctions between those two species.

Rather than rattling off another inane and preposterous hypothetical scenario-style strawman of my argument, perhaps you can actually address the issue and give a clear and concise definition of your terms. This level of intellectual dishonesty will not slide with me.


And what "traits" are specifically required to identify two animals as belonging to two different "kinds"?

Not just species but they aren't even the same genus
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
And I consider ID more promising, more logical, and more plausible.
...
I am not conflating the two,
...
If you don't know whether or not life can come from non-life, then you don't have a theory of evolution. I understand that this is a difficult subject for you and science, but it is a necessary evil.
The origins of life are irrelevant when discussing the diversity of life with someone who is scientifically literate. You conflate the two with regards to your horse before the cart comments - instead of addressing the diversity claims you instead attempt to switch topics to origin claims. This is because as a proponent of ID who asserts that evolution is constrained by 'kinds', origins and diversity are intrinsically the same, that diversity of life is achieved through the way in which they originated - they were constructed differently. For an ID proponent conflation is the default position.

I am merely saying that before you can have macroevolution you have to have a sustantiated theory for organic evolution, and right now you don't have either.
Ummm what do you mean by a 'substantiated theory for organic evolution'? We have identified it, demonstrated it, refined it. We have it it is called 'Evolution'.

Ok, so you wouldn't recognize the elephant as the different kind of animal. That is ok, I won't hold it against you. Look, as I keep stressing, an animal has never been observed producing a different kind of animal. Point blank, period. I don't care how long you claim it takes. It will never happen. If every living creature on earth disappear EXCEPT dogs, a million years later..you will still have dogs. There is no reason to think that a non-dog would arise from this population of dogs. None. Yet you are telling me that the dogs of today came from non-dogs of yesterday. Ridiculous.
No, I recognize each of the animals as different to the other, the elephant being the most different of those particular ones you mentioned. The problem is that you are attempting to rely on a subconscious pattern seeking element to create a psuedo grouping to attempt to select some of the organisms and not others, however there is no merit to this approach in terms of actual biology. If you cannot define 'kind' then using it is not merely pointless, it becomes an obstacle to reasoned discussion - because a defined term which relates to biological categorization can be tested within the domain of scientific inquiry and this is something proponents of 'kind' limitations on evolution are keen to avoid - because every time they have done so their definition gets roundly proven to be without merit.

And yes, were dogs to be the only creatures left on earth, there would only be two options, either they were able to evolve to the altered conditions or they were not. If they are not able to evolve then they will all die out without offspring after perhaps a few dozen generations due to a lack of food. If they were able to evolve then one day there would be other organisms that they would produce, which we would no longer call dogs. They would of course start out as carnivorous mammals with canine denture, but the resulting environment would produce new opportunities for development (as well as threats). Most importantly they would need to be able to produce at least some subset of progeny that were omnivores/herbivores (which seems far more likely than developing the ability to photosynthesize), because the carcasses of all the other animals will eventually expire and therefore they will need a means by which to obtain sustenance other than through meat eating (though carnivores will remain) as well as a host of other adaptations to the new circumstances.

And there isn't any evidence of transitional phrases either. Why is there not? And how and who is doing the dating?
...
So you show me a drawing of something that looks like a rat/rabbit and tell me that this based on what you believe to be a transitional fossil? Ha. What about the other transitional fossils in between? Do you have any drawings of that? What bout transitional fossils of other organisms, and the steps in between? With all of these changes over the course of hundreds upon hundreds of millions of years, we should have wayyyy more transitional fossils than not. But we dont. Hmmm.
...
Everyone knows that transitional fossils don't exist. If transitional fossils exists, we should have a transitional fossil record for every living organism today. We should have the transitional fossil of bears, elephants, cats, dogs, everything. We don't. And not only that, but how do you know whether or not that whatever you think MAY be a transitional fossil, may actually be a fossil of a specific but different kind of animal that died out? What determines the distinction?
Then 'everyone' is wrong; because they do not know what they are talking about. We do have samples for a huge number of transitions, the problem that you are simply not grasping the fact that all fossils are ALL transitional fossils every single one. The difference is that for some of them, them adhere to a set of characteristics that we have attached a label to and thus we dont really call them transitional fossils anymore. We have far more transitional than non-transitional fossils. There are some transitions about which we have significantly FEWER samples - it is in such transitions that our evidence is far thinner (one of these transitions was the presence of a lower jaw - a sample of which was only recently discovered), but to claim we do not have transitional fossils - let alone that they do not exist? Is manifestly incorrect and simply indicates a gross level of unawareness about the subject. The backrooms in museums are FILLED with transitional fossils (as are universities etc), they are simply seldom on display (because everyone wants to see TRex, not Trex's ancestor who had much longer fore arms, a smaller head, was several feet shorter etc)

Scientists of various fields do the dating of fossils using a huge range of different dating methods depending on what is being dated, the dating methods do however remain consistent.

Right, we can only take them as fossils of animals that died. Nothing more, nothing less. To say anything beyond that is adding your presupposition to the evidence.
Actually, we can identify what it is made of, lets say it was a bone and thus calcium; we can look at the structure of the teeth and notice that they are all sharp teeth made for tearing, so we can make inferences about it's diet, we can also look for similarities with other organisms - such as a finding what looks like a human skull we can say hey you know that was a human, and since it is the remains of a human, just like WE have DNA, so too does it, hopefully sufficiently well preserved so that we can find out more about them. A fossil is more than simply a lump of 'stuff' about which we cannot learn more - your desire to remain unaware of what those fossils might teach us notwithstanding.

Which is my point, video or up close and personal, I would making an observation based on what I see.

DNA is a genetical blueprint. How do you get specified information like this from a trial and error process?
DNA is a record of those organisms which had up until that point (where the organism died) succeeded, it is a record of success - this is a hierarchical family portrait (gross simplification) of those traits that were passed on.

Well, why can we observe one and not the other?
...
Then I will ask again, why can we observe one and not the other??
Time is the one and only factor which prevents it - microorganisms live a VERY short time, therefore, we can observe changes over many many many generations with relative ease (where six months of research might include hundreds of thousands of generations) - on the other hand with macro organisms they live a LOT longer, therefore observing multiple generations takes an extremely long time.

EDIT: played with the ordering a bit to attempt to remove redundancies where the same content is brought up repeatedly. Also to make for a more logical flow
 
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Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
From this response, and those you've made to others here it's obvious you' choose to go off topic to save yourself from having to address uncomfortable issues. So be it. If you can't cope, you can't cope. :shrug: But you can take comfort in the fact that you're not the first to resort to the tactic.

Take care and have a good day.
icon14.gif

I used an analogy to show how bad your logic was..so how is that going off topic?
 

johnhanks

Well-Known Member
There is no reason to think that a non-dog would arise from this population of dogs.
There is every reason. Picture a population of wild dogs. They have the morphologies they do because of their gene pool. Over the generations, gene pools change: this is observed fact, not conjecture. After very many generations, the gene pool can change so far that the animals' fertilised eggs develop into a body form you would not recognise as a dog. You and other creationists here have been asked many times to give a mechanism that would prevent the gene pool from diverging that far: none has so far been forthcoming.
Well, why can we observe [microevolution] and not [macroevolution]?
Call, just fix it so you live fifty million years: I promise you'll observe macroevolution. The distinction is one of scale, not of kind.
And there isn't any evidence of transitional phrases either. Why is there not? And how and who is doing the dating?
Your mastery of evasion is breathtaking. InformedIgnorance asked you a very simple question: why do we see no modern lifeforms among early fossils? Characteristically, you ducked it. And if you really want to know about dating methods (which I doubt), read this. When you've read it, if you have discovered the methods to be invalid you can explain to us what's wrong with them.
Everyone knows that transitional fossils don't exist. If transitional fossils exists, we should have a transitional fossil record for every living organism today.
You've set the bar pretty high for thoughtless and inane comments, but this one sails over the rest effortlessly. Do you know how improbable it is for a dead animal to fossilise? And then for that fossil, buried in thousands of cubic miles of rock, to come to light? To say you won't believe transitional fossils exist unless you see every one is like refusing to believe in Paul Revere's ride unless someone shows you every hoofprint left by his horse.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
So how would you explain the existence of the miacid fossil, and the diverging lineage of fossils into cat-like and dog-like fossils?

Diverging lineage? Based on what? Transitional fossils that no one has ever found? There is no diverging lineage. If you presuppose that evolution is true, you can find any given fossil and claim any animal of today is a descendent of it. The presupposition comes first, and then the interpretation. Where is the science? That is not an observation, that is a presupposed interpretation.

A thought experiment for you: don't start with your own preconceptions - I realize you have a completely closed mind at the moment

I can say the same thing about you people and ID. It isn't that I am closed minded, I just find the idea absurd. I think I am an open minded person, but when you start telling me that mindless and blind processes can start doing these cool and amazing things by creating creating life from non-life, and giving this life all of these cool functions like brains for thinking, eyes to see, ears to hear, etc, I just can't believe it. It goes against my rationale as a common sensical human being.

, but at least try to look at this with just a touch of openness. Ignore everything you think you know about evolution, the bible and ID, start with what has actually been found and see what you can make from that. Look at the fossils, their ages and shapes - if you don't have a nearby natural history museum, or insufficient google-fu, I'll find some examples for you.

Philbo, let me ask you a question; When I look at a fossil, why am I to determine anything other than "this once living thing has now died"? Why am I to go beyond that by saying "animal x must have evolved from this fossil"? I mean, why? Why go beyond necessity. I will tell you why I think people believe in evolution: Because it is the only game in town. The unbeliever has to make some sense of why we have different species/kinds of life. You take away ID, and evolution is the only game in town.

And yes I know there are theists that believe in evolution, but as I said...these people realize that even if evolution did occur, there had to be a mind behind it. You just don't go from a big bang full of inanimate matter to matter that suddenly came to life and begin thinking, eating, seeing, hearing, talking, walking, reproducing, etc. I mean, cmon.
 

philbo

High Priest of Cynicism
Diverging lineage? Based on what? Transitional fossils that no one has ever found? There is no diverging lineage. If you presuppose that evolution is true, you can find any given fossil and claim any animal of today is a descendent of it. The presupposition comes first, and then the interpretation. Where is the science? That is not an observation, that is a presupposed interpretation.
:facepalm:
No, what you find is (e.g. in the case of a miacid - google it and there's plenty of info) a skull that is obviously from a carnivore, but neither absolutely cat-like nor dog-like. Over the intervening tens of millions of years, you find fossil skulls which bear a strong relation to that miacid skull, but in some cases show more feline characteristics, in some cases more canine ones - more than enough similarities to make them look like decendents of the miacid or something very much like it. Continue this process to the present day, and you can find a line of fossils, every one of them transitional between the more miacid-like and the more feline/canine like.

That is 100% interpretation from observation - to assert otherwise is either ignorance or sheer stupidity.



I can say the same thing about you people and ID. It isn't that I am closed minded, I just find the idea absurd. I think I am an open minded person, but when you start telling me that mindless and blind processes can start doing these cool and amazing things by creating creating life from non-life, and giving this life all of these cool functions like brains for thinking, eyes to see, ears to hear, etc, I just can't believe it. It goes against my rationale as a common sensical human being.
Forget the "life from non-life" thing - we're talking about deduction from observation. There is only one credible deduction that can be made from what is observed: your argument from incredulity is a fallacy.



Philbo, let me ask you a question; When I look at a fossil, why am I to determine anything other than "this once living thing has now died"? Why am I to go beyond that by saying "animal x must have evolved from this fossil"?
Well, if you look at the history of changing fossils, I'd say it's an inevitable conclusion. How else could you think?

I mean, why? Why go beyond necessity. I will tell you why I think people believe in evolution: Because it is the only game in town. The unbeliever has to make some sense of why we have different species/kinds of life. You take away ID, and evolution is the only game in town.
ID is a non-scientific nonsense, invented to try and disprove what was viewed as an atheistic coup de grace. Personally, I don't see that evolution is proof of a non-existence of god, though it does drive a rather large nail into the coffin of the biblical creation story, other than as allegory.

And yes I know there are theists that believe in evolution, but as I said...these people realize that even if evolution did occur, there had to be a mind behind it. You just don't go from a big bang full of inanimate matter to matter that suddenly came to life and begin thinking, eating, seeing, hearing, talking, walking, reproducing, etc. I mean, cmon.
Again, an argument from incredulity - if that's all it takes, well.. there was someone around, eternally, who just happened to be able to make everything? I mean, cmon.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Cats and dogs are different species of animals, and we know this because we have definitions of species which make practical distinctions between those two species. If I ask to see a "dog" that means I am asking to see a member of the SPECIES known as "dog".

First off, the word "species"...the definition is not as clear cut as some of you may like.

Rather than rattling off another inane and preposterous hypothetical scenario-style strawman of my argument, perhaps you can actually address the issue and give a clear and concise definition of your terms. This level of intellectual dishonesty will not slide with me.

Wait a minute, above you just said that a dog is a different species than a cat, right? I don't for one minute buy that, but for arguments sake, lets go with it. I said that a dog will only produce a dog, and a cat will only produce a cat, in other words, they will only produce their own kind (species). You then said I need to be clear and concise about what I mean by "kind". Well, lets use kind/species interchangably. A dog will only produce its own species. Even if we don't use "kind" and instead use "species", the fact still remains, a dog will only produce a dog, and will never produce a non-dog. So my point is not negated at all.

And what "traits" are specifically required to identify two animals as belonging to two different "kinds"?

I will ask you the same thing I asked others on here. Get a picture of a lion, tiger, leopard, cheetah, and elephant, and ask any child 5 years old and above to circle the different animal, and I gaurantee the child will circle the elephant. If a 5 year old child can do it, then why can't adults?

I think the answer is because a child doesn't have presuppositions, so there is nothing barring the child from telling the truth.
 
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