• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

"Sir David Attenborough says humans have stopped evolving"

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Indeed, if anything else happened it would be the end of the theory of evolution since it would falsify it at it's very core.

But yet you believe that they share a common ancestor???????

I don't get your point here. Do you think that a crocoduck (or what have you, the creationists inventions are many and all equally silly) would prove evolution? It wouldn't, it would actually disprove evolution completely.

Wait a minute, so the very first bird. If the very first bird (feathers, beak, wings, etc), if it didn't begin with feathers, a beak, and wings, but it evolved, feathers, a beak, and wings....isn't that the same concept as a crocoduck???

There is no escape, either it started off with what it has, or it didn't have it, and BECAME "it". Either way, I don't see any difference from this and the crocoduck thing. They are both foolish concepts, I agree, but what makes your foolish concept any better/different than the crocoduck concept?
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
But yet you believe that they share a common ancestor???????



Wait a minute, so the very first bird. If the very first bird (feathers, beak, wings, etc), if it didn't begin with feathers, a beak, and wings, but it evolved, feathers, a beak, and wings....isn't that the same concept as a crocoduck???

There is no escape, either it started off with what it has, or it didn't have it, and BECAME "it". Either way, I don't see any difference from this and the crocoduck thing. They are both foolish concepts, I agree, but what makes your foolish concept any better/different than the crocoduck concept?


DNA is proof of creation? How? Genesis makes it rather explicit that man was made different than the animals. All animals were spoken of into existence and man was create from Dust and the breathe of life was put into them. So why the different acts of creation if your template is the same?

Also

Is DNA alive or not alive?
 

ImprobableBeing

Active Member
But yet you believe that they share a common ancestor???????

This isn't about belief, you either know the ToE or you are ignorant of it, i know the ToE and thus i agree with it that every living thing on this planet has a common ancestor.

Wait a minute, so the very first bird. If the very first bird (feathers, beak, wings, etc), if it didn't begin with feathers, a beak, and wings, but it evolved, feathers, a beak, and wings....isn't that the same concept as a crocoduck???

There is no escape, either it started off with what it has, or it didn't have it, and BECAME "it". Either way, I don't see any difference from this and the crocoduck thing. They are both foolish concepts, I agree, but what makes your foolish concept any better/different than the crocoduck concept?

You don't understand even basic biology nor would you pass middle school biology in my country with your level of knowledge.

I'm sorry but no, it doesn't work that way, the point is that there is no specific point where the first bird became a bird, it's so gradual that there was never a specific point, if there had been such a rapid change then the ToE is wrong.

There is no direction in the way you're considering it, reptiles didn't strive to become birds nor was there any clear point when the feathered reptile was a bird until it was a bird. There are examples of feathered reptiles though.

To really mess with your head consider this, a bat and a dolphin are more closely related than the dolphin is to fish or the bat to birds. When you figure out why that is you will have learned a lot.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
When you say "you don't believe in a fossil record", what exactly do you think is wrong?

The interpretation is what is wrong. You dig up fossils and see fossils that look similar and determine that this is because one evolved to the other. When you see a fossil and you determine anything other than "this animal has been dead for a very long time", then you are going beyond what is necessary. I agree, fossils exist. We can see them. They are there. No arguments here.

Do you think the fossils themselves are not real?

Of course they are. No arguments here.

Do you think the calculated ages of fossils are wrong?

I am open to the evidence.

Do you think that all fossils can be categorized into the same "kinds" we see today? (for the purposes of discussion, I'm even willing to use your hazy definition of "kind")

Of course they can. Every animal that has been fossilized can be categorized into the same categories that we classify the animals of today. Some may have their own categories (and by "own" I mean different categories than there are today), some may be under the same categories that we have today. But yes, of course they can be categorized.

I'm trying to work out exactly where you think all of modern science is wrong.

The problem I have is the 3 reasons I gave in a previous posts. Not to mention the fact that naturalists have a big problem. You guys have to explain life from non-life, and the problem of entropy, and the problem of infinity. Before you get to evolution, these three things have to be explained, and I would like for someone to explain those three things. But as for the theory itself, why can't we simulate the right circumstances at which we can observe these macro changes occur?

That is a legitimate question, right?
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
This isn't about belief, you either know the ToE or you are ignorant of it, i know the ToE and thus i agree with it that every living thing on this planet has a common ancestor.

How do you know? Were you there? I will ask you personally, since you "know" so much, how about simulating the right circumstances at which macroevolution can be directly observed.

You don't understand even basic biology nor would you pass middle school biology in my country with your level of knowledge.

:beach:


I'm sorry but no, it doesn't work that way, the point is that there is no specific point where the first bird became a bird, it's so gradual that there was never a specific point, if there had been such a rapid change then the ToE is wrong.

Who said anything about rapid change? I don't care how long it took (although I think the whole tenure of the event is part of the scam). The point is, there was a point at which the animal we call a bird wasn't a bird, it was something else. Also, about the bird; Did it evolve wings for the purpose of flying, or was it simply making use of an error on the natural selection part? Which one is it?

There is no direction in the way you're considering it, reptiles didn't strive to become birds nor was there any clear point when the feathered reptile was a bird until it was a bird. There are examples of feathered reptiles though.

To really mess with your head consider this, a bat and a dolphin are more closely related than the dolphin is to fish or the bat to birds. When you figure out why that is you will have learned a lot.

You are telling me the bogus theory. I have a theory that will be bogus to you also. That God created the heavens and the earth, and all of the creatures of the land and in the sea, and air. He created an original specimen of every kind of animal that has ever lived, and each animal was to produce after their kind. So over time, there has been many different varieties of animals, but all are limited to their own kind.

You've shared with me your bogus theory, so I've shared with you my bogus theory.
 

ImprobableBeing

Active Member
The problem I have is the 3 reasons I gave in a previous posts. Not to mention the fact that naturalists have a big problem. You guys have to explain life from non-life, and the problem of entropy, and the problem of infinity. Before you get to evolution, these three things have to be explained, and I would like for someone to explain those three things. But as for the theory itself, why can't we simulate the right circumstances at which we can observe these macro changes occur?

That is a legitimate question, right?

Before you get to evolution, nothing has to be explained since we simply don't know (yet) what came before it, the evidence of evolution speaks for itself.

We have been running such simulations for a LONG time, based on DNA and the fossil records and the predictions are exact matches with those kinds of simulations.

Regarding macroevolution, it's been observed in a laboratory setting in real time, inter species evolution isn't even a new observation, when you start talking about "kinds" you are paraphrasing the biblical event and OF COURSE we can't observe what isn't true.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
DNA is proof of creation? How? Genesis makes it rather explicit that man was made different than the animals. All animals were spoken of into existence and man was create from Dust and the breathe of life was put into them. So why the different acts of creation if your template is the same?

Ok but man is still made up of matter just like animals are. Blood, cells, DNA, bones, etc....the Genesis account is obviously not a biology book or an account on human or animal anatomy, but the point is clear, God created the universe, man, and animals.

Also

Is DNA alive or not alive?

I don't know if I would use the term "alive". Maybe "live" would be better.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Before you get to evolution, nothing has to be explained since we simply don't know (yet) what came before it, the evidence of evolution speaks for itself.

If life didn't/can't come from non-life, how can we get to evolution?

We have been running such simulations for a LONG time, based on DNA and the fossil records and the predictions are exact matches with those kinds of simulations.

Regarding macroevolution, it's been observed in a laboratory setting in real time, inter species evolution isn't even a new observation, when you start talking about "kinds" you are paraphrasing the biblical event and OF COURSE we can't observe what isn't true.

I am talking about for MACROEVOLUTION. If the animal we call a "bird" came from a non-bird, I want to see a simulation of how this can occur. This is not asking for to much either, since we know so much.
 

ImprobableBeing

Active Member
How do you know? Were you there? I will ask you personally, since you "know" so much, how about simulating the right circumstances at which macroevolution can be directly observed.

Indeed, let's do that and wait 3.7 billion years and see what we get. Seriously?


Who said anything about rapid change? I don't care how long it took (although I think the whole tenure of the event is part of the scam). The point is, there was a point at which the animal we call a bird wasn't a bird, it was something else. Also, about the bird; Did it evolve wings for the purpose of flying, or was it simply making use of an error on the natural selection part? Which one is it?

You can't read? There was no point when a bird wasn't a bird, a different animal didn't suddenly give life to a new species, it doesn't work that way.

Your question is beyond stupid, birds didn't "evolve wings" the reptiles they came from were winged.

I'm ignoring the rest because i don't want anyone to lose IQ points trying to read it and understand what you mean.
 

ImprobableBeing

Active Member
If life didn't/can't come from non-life, how can we get to evolution?

Who knows? No one. (yet)

I am talking about for MACROEVOLUTION. If the animal we call a "bird" came from a non-bird, I want to see a simulation of how this can occur. This is not asking for to much either, since we know so much.

No, you are talking about some idea that you made up in your head that isn't compatible with any understanding of evolution, i can't respond to your strawmen since they are in no way related to science nor are they related to the scientific theory of evolution.

You're asking me to explain your understanding of something that is flat out wrong, i can't do that.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Ok but man is still made up of matter just like animals are. Blood, cells, DNA, bones, etc....the Genesis account is obviously not a biology book or an account on human or animal anatomy, but the point is clear, God created the universe, man, and animals.



I don't know if I would use the term "alive". Maybe "live" would be better.


So you are saying that man was not made from dirt? Because that is what Genesis says we are made of, and Animals were not made of Matter they were just spoken of into existence. Meaning every life form was created into existence and Noah preserved every (two of every kind) on the Ark. So why do we have fossils? When did this organisms become extinct? Pre-flood or Post-flood?

Does DNA live? Huh?

So are viruses alive?
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
So you are saying that man was not made from dirt?

Um, Frankie, dirt is matter.

Because that is what Genesis says we are made of, and Animals were not made of Matter they were just spoken of into existence.

Ok, and the end result is a creature that was made up of matter.

Meaning every life form was created into existence and Noah preserved every (two of every kind) on the Ark. So why do we have fossils? When did this organisms become extinct? Pre-flood or Post-flood?

It all depends on how you interpret Genesis. Some don't interpret the Genesis account as 7 literal days. Old earth creationists certainly don't. On the old earth creationists view, fossilization is not a problem.

Does DNA live? Huh?

It is a figure of speech. Just like a "live electrical wire". You will call it "live", but not "alive" for the most part.

So are viruses alive?

Don't know.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Yes, and that's not all, some viruses use RNA as their genetic material.

It would be better to look at Viruses as "at the edge of life" their lack of cell structure, and that they will usually remain "dormant" until contact with a host cell seems to indicate that they aren't alive, but they do other life like activities which require DNA "Reproduce, Evolve, and carry genetic material (DNA)

Yet what is important here is that DNA itself is not considered alive, yet it is key for living organisms. How is something that is not alive so essential for life.
 

ImprobableBeing

Active Member
It would be better to look at Viruses as "at the edge of life" their lack of cell structure, and that they will usually remain "dormant" until contact with a host cell seems to indicate that they aren't alive, but they do other life like activities which require DNA "Reproduce, Evolve, and carry genetic material (DNA)

Yet what is important here is that DNA itself is not considered alive, yet it is key for living organisms. How is something that is not alive so essential for life.

We're stepping into my line of work here and rather than to attempt to define what "life" is when it comes to virus suffice to say that yes, they do meet the biological standard.

I agree that DNA itself isn't considered life, it's just a simple chain (actually extremely simple).

Well apart from the RNA life, it's essential for life because of the environment that allowed it to become essential for life, in another environment we might have another form of life (we actually already do in sorts but i'll leave that alone since it has no bearing of the discussion at hane) or none at all. It all has to do with the environment. I don't think that answers your question though but the question is in itself kinda incoherent, if not for water or oxygen or the other parts that make up life we wouldn't have life (at least not the life we see now) either.

DNA isn't special.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Um, Frankie, dirt is matter.



Ok, and the end result is a creature that was made up of matter.



It all depends on how you interpret Genesis. Some don't interpret the Genesis account as 7 literal days. Old earth creationists certainly don't. On the old earth creationists view, fossilization is not a problem.



It is a figure of speech. Just like a "live electrical wire". You will call it "live", but not "alive" for the most part.



Don't know.

1. I didn't say that dirt isn't matter, only that animals were spoken of into existence no matter was used in their creation, only man.

2. You say the end result is a creature made of matter, how did the ancients know that? It's obvious now that the main source of life is DNA, so when was DNA made? Was it made when animals were spoken into existence? How did all that viral DNA get into our DNA then?

3. How you interpret Genesis? What does that have to do with anything. It's pretty clear, that Noah had to bring two of every kind...or wait was it seven? Guess it depends on the Priestly source of the Deutoristic source for that info...but anyway, when did all these creatures become extinct? Pre-flood or post flood? We know that there was no death in the garden, so it couldn't have been then, so it would have happened after that. So when was this huge catestrophe that killed off all the dinosaurs yet left other organisms, so that Noah would have enough room in the flood? Did two of every kind include viruses and bacteria? If not where did they come? How about the plants? And what about glaciers? When did the Ice age happen? Why were elephants lucky to survive the flood but not whooly mammoths? Or did they already die before the flood? So why can't we find elephant bones near whooly mammoth bones?

4. How about prions then? Are they alive?
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
We're stepping into my line of work here and rather than to attempt to define what "life" is when it comes to virus suffice to say that yes, they do meet the biological standard.

I agree that DNA itself isn't considered life, it's just a simple chain (actually extremely simple).

Well apart from the RNA life, it's essential for life because of the environment that allowed it to become essential for life, in another environment we might have another form of life (we actually already do in sorts but i'll leave that alone since it has no bearing of the discussion at hane) or none at all. It all has to do with the environment. I don't think that answers your question though but the question is in itself kinda incoherent, if not for water or oxygen or the other parts that make up life we wouldn't have life (at least not the life we see now) either.

DNA isn't special.

The question wasn't to you, you decided to answer it, but overall Call of the Wild is saying that non-life can't produce life (Spontaneous Generation)

However much of what keeps life going, is non-life. So at what point does he consider something alive or not alive?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
You guys are wasting your time with Call of the Wild. He convinced himself that evolution means that a monkey gives birth to a cat. No matter what you say he will always says "evolution in false because dogs give birth to dogs".

Sad but true. He's been taken by Kent Hovind. There is no hope. :(
 

philbo

High Priest of Cynicism
The interpretation is what is wrong. You dig up fossils and see fossils that look similar and determine that this is because one evolved to the other. When you see a fossil and you determine anything other than "this animal has been dead for a very long time", then you are going beyond what is necessary.
"Beyond what is necessary"? If you don't mind me saying, that's a very strange attitude. Why would you do anything less than try and glean as much information as possible from what we can find?

I agree, fossils exist. We can see them. They are there. No arguments here.
...
Of course they are. No arguments here.
Good.

I am open to the evidence.
Good - so are there any fossils, for example the miacids we were talking about earlier, the ages of which you think have been misidentified? There are numerous different ways in which ages of fossils are determined: do you need any pointers as to how to evaluate whether these methods are reasonable & accurate enough for determining fossil ages?

What I mean is, are you happy that if I talk about a miacid fossil as being 60 million years old, so you're not going to come back to it later as something which hasn't been agreed.

Of course they can. Every animal that has been fossilized can be categorized into the same categories that we classify the animals of today. Some may have their own categories (and by "own" I mean different categories than there are today), some may be under the same categories that we have today. But yes, of course they can be categorized.
OK.. I'll come back to this once you've agreed we can agree on fossil ages.



The problem I have is the 3 reasons I gave in a previous posts. Not to mention the fact that naturalists have a big problem. You guys have to explain life from non-life, and the problem of entropy, and the problem of infinity. Before you get to evolution, these three things have to be explained, and I would like for someone to explain those three things.
I hate to say this, but no, none of these things need explaining before you get to evolution: what we're doing with the evolutionary explanations is looking at the evidence we have and seeing where that leads. Looking at fossils, etc. can tell you how life has changed over the aeons, but it won't tell you anything about what came before lifeforms were capable of being fossilized.

But as for the theory itself, why can't we simulate the right circumstances at which we can observe these macro changes occur?

That is a legitimate question, right?
I'll answer a question with a question: is a wolf a dog?
..from a taxonomic perspective, they're not the same species (although you might consider them the same "kind", you have to agree that they are similar but different enough that they cannot interbreed). A Russian scientist, Belyaev, selectively bred foxes, using selection for friendliness to humans, which has also resulted in physiological changes.

These foxes are still foxes, but they are significantly morphologically different to the rest of the fox population. This has not become what you would define as macro-evolution (yet - the Russians are continuing the experiment, even though Belyaev died 30 years ago), over half a century of selection for specific traits. So this is the sort of timescale you need to be thinking about: it's not about a fox giving birth to a non-fox, it's about allowing changes to accumulate over the generations.

To answer your question "why can't we simulate the right circumstances at which we can observe these macro changes occur?", we can: we just need a bit more patience.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
The problem I have is the 3 reasons I gave in a previous posts. Not to mention the fact that naturalists have a big problem. You guys have to explain life from non-life, and the problem of entropy, and the problem of infinity. Before you get to evolution, these three things have to be explained, and I would like for someone to explain those three things.
Evolution stands apart from the three. As for

1. You guys have to explain life from non-life. No we don't because evolution only deals with change, not with first cause. Evolution doesn't care how life first came to be: fiat of god, abiogenesis, or seeding by extraterrestrial visitors, it makes no difference. Evolution doesn't care.

2. the problem of entropy. The question is, where do you want to apply the law of entropy to living creatures? Living creatures are systems and subsystems that interact in such a manner as to insure order will be retained. The "problem" of entropy is not a problem at all.

3. problem of infinity. I have no idea what this problem is or how it relates to evolution.

But as for the theory itself, why can't we simulate the right circumstances at which we can observe these macro changes occur?

That is a legitimate question, right?
Not really, because evolutionary changes, those that manifest themselves in populations rather than selected individuals, is a very long term process. Secondly, it would be a hit and miss affair as to what evolutionary pressures to apply in order to effect a change on a macro level. In any case evolution has been observed. Probably the most referenced example is that of the peppered moth.
"The evolution of the peppered moth over the last two hundred years has been studied in detail. Originally, the vast majority of peppered moths had light colouration, which effectively camouflaged them against the light-coloured trees and lichens which they rested upon. However, because of widespread pollution during the Industrial Revolution in England, many of the lichens died out, and the trees that peppered moths rested on became blackened by soot, causing most of the light-coloured moths, or typica, to die off from predation. At the same time, the dark-coloured, or melanic, moths, carbonaria, flourished because of their ability to hide on the darkened trees.
source: Wikipedia
 
Top