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Slavery, hadiths, Quran and how to study Islam.

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

there is a hadith from Imam Ali:

Adam did not give birth to a man who is a slave or slave woman and all people are free.


Now you can dismiss the Hadith by ones that contradict it. This is one approach.

Another is to rely on translations and say slavery is endorsed by Quran.

another is to investigate in Quran going back to original Arabic and see if it actually does endorse slavery or does it do the opposite?

I believe on investigation the following hadith is proven true. There’s a similar one from Imam Reda(a) on an occasion where the ruler made the servants of his eat separately!

View attachment 52075
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Salam

there is a hadith from Imam Ali:

Adam did not give birth to a man who is a slave or slave woman and all people are free.


Now you can dismiss the Hadith by ones that contradict it. This is one approach.

Another is to rely on translations and say slavery is endorsed by Quran.

another is to investigate in Quran going back to original Arabic and see if it actually does endorse slavery or does it do the opposite?

I believe on investigation the following hadith is proven true. There’s a similar one from Imam Reda(a) on an occasion where the ruler made the servants of his eat separately!

View attachment 52075

I wonder how it happens that when in language X it says "Don't keep slaves, slavery is evil!", it ends up being translated as "slavery is just fine, keep slaves, enjoy it"

Especially if it is claimed that the text in language X is "perfection itself".
That seems to be obviously false if a translator can manage to misunderstand it so much that he literally walks away thinking it says the exact opposite of what it actually says.

It makes no sense at all.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

there is a hadith from Imam Ali:

Adam did not give birth to a man who is a slave or slave woman and all people are free.


Now you can dismiss the Hadith by ones that contradict it. This is one approach.

Another is to rely on translations and say slavery is endorsed by Quran.

another is to investigate in Quran going back to original Arabic and see if it actually does endorse slavery or does it do the opposite?

I believe on investigation the following hadith is proven true. There’s a similar one from Imam Reda(a) on an occasion where the ruler made the servants of his eat separately!

View attachment 52075
Since the hadith and sira are all made up anyway the way to study the Quran is to pick and choose whichever parts of the hadith and sira you want/like and reject the rest.

In my opinion.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Since the hadith and sira are all made up anyway the way to study the Quran is to pick and choose whichever parts of the hadith and sira you want/like and reject the rest.

In my opinion.

You conjecture, but even if your conjecture was true and it was all made up, it's best when studying religion act according to it's own paradigm. In this case, Quran should be primary and hadiths as insights to what is in Quran, and I don't see why conjecture of reputation should be end all when reputation per Quran is unreliable in all times and places.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I wonder how it happens that when in language X it says "Don't keep slaves, slavery is evil!", it ends up being translated as "slavery is just fine, keep slaves, enjoy it"

Especially if it is claimed that the text in language X is "perfection itself".
That seems to be obviously false if a translator can manage to misunderstand it so much that he literally walks away thinking it says the exact opposite of what it actually says.

It makes no sense at all.

It actually is due to mistranslations of a concept known as Muta. When you understood Muta and malakat aymanihim in light of that, it will become clear, the distortion.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You conjecture, but even if your conjecture was true and it was all made up, it's best when studying religion act according to it's own paradigm. In this case, Quran should be primary and hadiths as insights to what is in Quran,
The problem is that deciding what the primary interpretation of the Quran is and which parts of the hadith/sira are valuable insights to what is in the Quran is itself conjecture (ie picking and choosing the bits of the hadith/sirah you like and matching it to the quran interpretation you like).

Therefore to study the religion within its own paradigm is to be a cherry picker.

The challenge is in knowing which interpretation of the Quran and which bits of the hadith/sira the individual you are talking to has cherry picked.

In my opinion.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
It actually is due to mistranslations of a concept known as Muta. When you understood Muta and malakat aymanihim in light of that, it will become clear, the distortion.
And these translators weren't aware of that?
Sorry, it makes no sense and I don't see how any excuse you make would change that.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The problem is that deciding what the primary interpretation of the Quran is and which parts of the hadith/sira are valuable insights to what is in the Quran is itself conjecture (ie picking and choosing the bits of the hadith/sirah you like and matching it to the quran interpretation you like).

Therefore to study the religion within its own paradigm is to be a cherry picker.

The challenge is in knowing which interpretation of the Quran and which bits of the hadith/sira the individual you are talking to has cherry picked.

In my opinion.

I think you underestimate the Quran in that it contains all the insights for religion with help of the ahadith to open up those insights.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why are there contradictory messages in a religion supposedly coming from the mouth of God?

Because of the divisions that occurred when people didn't follow the successors of Mohammad (s).
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I wrote the following in a book I was trying to publish (and it still might be)

Chapter 3
The disparagement of the differences of clergy attributed to Imam Ali


There is an important sermon as far as this paradox goes, found in Nahjul Balagha. Again, our concern is not the authenticity of the chain or sermon, but giving words if they are words of guidance, a chance to guide and provide insights.

The sermon we will be looking at in this chapter is as follows



When a problem is put before anyone of them he passes judgement on it from his imagination. When exactly the same problem is placed before another of them he passes an opposite verdict. Then these judges go to the chief who had appointed them and he confirms all the verdicts, although their Allah is One (and the same), their Prophet is one (and the same), their Book (the Qur’an) is one (and the same)!

Is it that Allah ordered them to differ and they obeyed Him? Or He prohibited them from it but they disobeyed Him? Or (is it that) Allah sent an incomplete Faith and sought their help to complete it? Or they are His partners in the affairs, so that it is their share of duty to pronounce and He has to agree? Or is it that Allah the Glorified sent a perfect faith but the Prophet fell short of conveying it and handing it over (to the people)? The fact is that Allah the Glorified says:

We have not neglected anything in the Book (Qur’an) . . . (6:38),

and in it is a ‘clarification of everything’ And He says that one part of the Qur’an verifies another part and that there is no divergence in it as He says:

.And if it had been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found in it much discrepancy. (4:82)

Certainly the outside of the Qur’an is wonderful and its inside is deep (in meaning). Its wonders will never disappear, its amazements will never pass away and its darkness (plural form) cannot be cleared except through itself.

This sermon shows the differences arose and Imam Ali comments on them. First condemnation is passing a judgement not on knowledge but imagination. The Quran also forbids attributing God what we do not know. Another person placed with another, they come with an opposite verdict. This means they can’t all be correct. Then the chief that appointed them confirms all their verdicts. This is exactly how Taqlid is done today. They differ but it’s accepted that we can follow any of them. Obviously the chief appointing them didn’t want to say both judgments are true, rather, he is saying which ever one you follow it doesn’t matter, for they are “attempting” to follow God and his Messenger.

Then Imam Ali begins with some rhetorical questions. God didn’t order them to differ rather we see in Quran, unity upon Quran and Sunnah is the advice, and not to differ. The notion that God wants us to differ and accepts the differences, is a notion we hold today. But the Quran has in fact commanded the opposite and said without understanding (Fiqh) our hearts will be divided even if people may think we are united.

The rope of God is meant to be a source of unity, but when it becomes a source of conflict and division, it’s obviously not guiding. So that poses the next question.

Or is it that God sent an incomplete faith? Certainly, God has sent a guidance and way to unite on guidance, so if we aren’t following that guidance, it’s due to rebellion and insincerity on our part.

The Imam shows then a more sinister intention in all this. He asks, that if they are in fact partners with God in the affair, and this goes to a verse in the 42nd chapter of Quran. The leader and guide Ali is showing that people who follow such leaders in fact, are associating with God heedlessly.

The Imam continues and then advices on the role of the Sunnah, he says or is it God sent a perfect religion, but the Prophet didn’t convey it and fell short of manifesting it?

He then refutes all these rhetorical questions and shows in fact, the Quran has an amazing quality of guiding humans through all their differences and it’s implied with the last reference to the Prophet, that the Sunnah compliments it and provides insight to it.

The Captain and Navigator of the ship of Salvation, Imam Ali, explains, that different parts of Quran explain different parts.

The last line is the most significant phrase for the purposes of the paradox. Its darkness which is in plural form, mean all the type of darkness which is a hint to the verse 3:7 and what is meant by ambiguity from it is to be cleared through itself.

And the Quran clarifies itself, but through the help of Ahlulbayt (as). The Sunnah of the Messenger was complimenting the Quran as it was dynamically built.

And here while we should provide hadiths to clarify Quran, we have to prove at the end Quranic signs and insights by Quran insights, since hadiths can always be denied.

But as anyone can talk a bunch of nonsense about Quran any right interpretation must be supported by hadiths as well. When hadiths are shown there is weight to the words and explanation, and it becomes easier to see it in Quran.

Without hadiths to support, there is no reason to give weight to the words. We can see this in the notion, did the Prophet fall short of conveying. Similar rhetorical question, did Ahlulbayt (as) leave any aspect of the religion aside and not protected?
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Not according to those that did the translating, obviously.
No, certainly. Or they wouldn't have translated it the way they did.
That's a false assumption, they may do it sincerely or insincerely, they may even know truth regarding some verses and mistranslate.

Well, now, we can clearly see that the translators intentionally mistranslated major portions of everything in order to sow confusion and dissent among the believers. Perhaps the translators were all closet Christians on a holy mission to destroy Islam.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, now, we can clearly see that the translators intentionally mistranslated major portions of everything in order to sow confusion and dissent among the believers. Perhaps the translators were all closet Christians on a holy mission to destroy Islam.

You on to something, maybe they magog doing it per orders of gog.
 
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