Slavery in the Bible, (and Quran)

[RabbiO]

@SA Huguenot -

This point may have been brought up before - I've been too busy to try to track your comments on two different threads - but apparently you don't understand the distinction between the eved ivri and the eved Kenaani. While it may be inappropriate to correlate slavery as described in the Torah with slavery as it was practiced in other ancient cultures or in, say, the American south, your supposition that slavery in the Torah refers only to a type of indentured servitude is just flat out incorrect.

 

[QuestioningMind]

My dear friend.
I not only read the Bible, I read it more than 15 times and I summarised it too.
I also read and summarised the Quran, Hadith and Book of Mormon.
As you can see, I also make deep studies about what the Bible says on various topics.
if you read through my attached PDF on Slavery in the Bible, you will find 2 things.
1. I took every verse from the Bible that spoke about Slavery.
2. I did not make my own opinion on what the verses are saying, but simply elaborated on the contents thereoff.
Therefore, when someone comes to me and make a claim as you do, they are displaying to everyone that they :
1. Never wrote what I collected in a small document
2. and they never will accept what is written in the Bible, but will continue to accuse the Bible of something it never says!
3. they will quote what some website, or atheist says about Slavery, because it sounds better to themthat the Bible is bad, than that God condemns Slavery. It just has to be that way, because what else can Atheists and Muslims use when they want to attack Christians on the Bible.

Sorry guys, The Bible does not condone slavery, and it is the only ancient writing that actually condemns a Slave monger.
So, for whatever reason you dont like the Bible, this claim of the Bible promoted slavery is one you can not use without being caught out as a LIAR.

Try something else.

Exodus 21:20-21 New International Version (NIV)

20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.


Leviticus 25:44-46 New International Version (NIV)
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Go ahead and defend this BLATANT acceptance of slavery as advocated by God in your bible. I'm very interested to see how you twist logic and reason to try and deny that the words above VERY CLEARLY say that God thinks it's okay for people to own other people as property.

 

[Milton Platt]

I read Dan Mellis' thread: Slavery in the Bible, and I just can not believe that anyone will make a claim on this topic without actually reading what the Bible says.
No, Dan! It is wrong to even attempt to blame slavery on the Bible, and God, if you never read the Bible for yourself pal!
let me give you a small compilation on what I found the Bible actually...say about slavery.
And as a bonus, what Islam says.
keep in mind that the American slave trade was stopped by Christians who found scriptural support in fighting slavery, and it was the USA and England that stopped slavery in Africa by the hand if Muslims.
Enjoy.

I attach the PDF study to allow you to read through it, and to see if you can prove me wrong.

The american slave trade was also justified with the Bible.
slave holders were also in fact Christians who went to a bloody war for the right to keep them.
If the god created everything and could know every outcome of his actions (omniscience) then he deliberately created a world in which slavery would occur, then proceeded to tell the Israelites where to buy their slaves and that slaves were their personal property that could be passed down to their heirs. It was also permissible to beat them without consequences as g it took more than two or three days for them to die from their injuries. If he didn't know that would be the outcome, he was not omniscient. If he did and could not create it in any other way, he was not all powerful. If he could have created it another way and he did know, and did not prevent it, he was immoral.

 

[blü 2]

You say: "However, both the Tanakh and the NT take slavery for granted as an ordinary incident of society, and accordingly the Tanakh sets out rules for buying and selling, bonking and freeing, your slaves; while Paul tells slaves to be good slaves, and neither he nor Jesus utters a word against it."

All your purported examples against slavery aren't against slavery ─ they're rules about slave-owning.

Quote me the Tanakh, quote me Paul, quote me Jesus, saying words to this effect: "Slavery is wrong. You must not own slaves. You must immediately free your slaves." You can't, because nothing of the kind is there,

Do you agree that what you said is not true?
Now why telling such a lie?
perhaps because you did not read what I wrote and believes what Atheist websites tells you?
Please explain!

Perhaps you should consider whether using such a patronizing tone is helpful to intelligent conversation? Or perhaps you don't want intelligent conversation, just a soap box?

Anyway, here's a little sample of Hebrew culture taking slavery for granted ─

Exodus 19:21-22 Some rules about bonking female slaves.

Exodus 21: 1-4 If your slave is a fellow Jew, you have to let him go after six years. If he was married when he came, he can take his wife and kids with him. If he wasn't, they're yours.

Exodus 21:7 You can sell your daughter.

Exodus 21:8 Rules for selling an unsatisfactory female slave after bonking. Note the no-alimony clause.

Exodus 21:20-21 If you beat your slave to death, and the slave dies that day, you'll be punished; but if the slave dies the next day or later, no problem.

Leviticus 24:44-46 You can buy slaves from your neighboring (non-Jewish) tribes, keep them, bequeath them to your heirs along with their children.

Deuteronomy 5:21 Don't covet your neighbor's slaves, whether male or female because they're his property.

 

[SA Huguenot]

All your purported examples against slavery aren't against slavery ─ they're rules about slave-owning.

Quote me the Tanakh, quote me Paul, quote me Jesus, saying words to this effect: "Slavery is wrong. You must not own slaves. You must immediately free your slaves." You can't, because nothing of the kind is there,

OK! in the Torah:
What does it mean when God instructed Moses the following
Because Israel was a stranger in Egypt, God instructed them never to oppress the stranger in their land. (Exodus 22: 21[1] / Exodus 23: 9[2])
The stranger, non-Israelite, and the Israelite are both decreed to adhere to the same law. Both will be treated equally under the regulatory law of the Government. (Numbers 15: 16[3])
(Deuteronomy 24:7) If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you.



[1] Exo22:21 Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

[2] Exo23:9 Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

[3] Num15:16One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

 

[SA Huguenot]

And the New Testament Paul say:
1Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Timothy 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for men-stealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Timothy 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Happy?
What now?
Do you agree you never even bothered to read what I attached?

 

[SA Huguenot]

Exodus 19:21-22 Some rules about bonking female slaves.

Exodus 21: 1-4 If your slave is a fellow Jew, you have to let him go after six years. If he was married when he came, he can take his wife and kids with him. If he wasn't, they're yours.

Exodus 21:7 You can sell your daughter.

Exodus 21:8 Rules for selling an unsatisfactory female slave after bonking. Note the no-alimony clause.

Exodus 21:20-21 If you beat your slave to death, and the slave dies that day, you'll be punished; but if the slave dies the next day or later, no problem.

Leviticus 24:44-46 You can buy slaves from your neighboring (non-Jewish) tribes, keep them, bequeath them to your heirs along with their children.

Deuteronomy 5:21 Don't covet your neighbor's slaves, whether male or female because they're his property.

Just as I said!
You did not even bother to see what I wrote.
Naa, you have the right to refuse the water when taken to the river pal!
Dont worry.
You can stay ignorant and accuse others of not giving an intelligent conversation.
No one will worry if you dont want to get so unintelligent as the rest of us.
you are very intelligent indeed, and everyone is witness to that.
Go on mate, way to go.

 

[SA Huguenot]

The american slave trade was also justified with the Bible.
slave holders were also in fact Christians who went to a bloody war for the right to keep them.
If the god created everything and could know every outcome of his actions (omniscience) then he deliberately created a world in which slavery would occur, then proceeded to tell the Israelites where to buy their slaves and that slaves were their personal property that could be passed down to their heirs. It was also permissible to beat them without consequences as g it took more than two or three days for them to die from their injuries. If he didn't know that would be the outcome, he was not omniscient. If he did and could not create it in any other way, he was not all powerful. If he could have created it another way and he did know, and did not prevent it, he was immoral.

Well, I must say I respect your position.
You have a serious concern with hardship, pain and death as we experience it in life.
And this is the age old question on why God would allow such terrible circumstances if He is such a good God that created everything perfect.

I will at a later stage like to open a thread where this can be discussed, but from my side I would like to answer shortly that when I read the Bible to find out why this is a reality, I saw.
1. God did not create Humans to age and die. He created them to live as immortals in a body covered with light.
2. God did not create sin.
3. Death is the absence of the presence of God, and God is life.
4. Evil came after God created everything perfect.
5. man and creation changed due to Adam and Eve "Sinnig" against God, and embracing evil. They lost their immortality, and bodies of light, realising they were naked.
6. The whole of creation are in a decomposing state due to evil entering creation, unlike the perfect state it had originally.
7. There is no way man can change this state of our decomposition, but only God can do that.
8. this is why God sent his "Mind", or Word to earth, to be exactly like a human in its decomposing state, to suffer with torture and to bleed and die like us.
9. This Word of God, can not die in His immortal state, and ressurected from the grave, but this time in a body which Adam and Eve had before they lost their immortality.
10. he gained a Glorious body of light that can not age, hurt, bleed, get cancer, and ascended back into heaven and He joined the Existance of YHWH, or as we call Him, the Father, and He as Word again joined with the Spirit of YHWH.
11. We as mortals can now obtain immortality by accepting Jesus as God who visited us, and opened the way for us to lose this decomposing state of mortality, and we can attain immortality with God!

The above is obviously a very short explanation, and a lot of questioning can be excersized and scrutinised on it, but this is the whole theory of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I will lateron open a thread where it can be discussed.
Greetings in the name of my Lord and God Yashua ha Messiah.

 

[SA Huguenot]

@SA Huguenot -

This point may have been brought up before - I've been too busy to try to track your comments on two different threads - but apparently you don't understand the distinction between the eved ivri and the eved Kenaani. While it may be inappropriate to correlate slavery as described in the Torah with slavery as it was practiced in other ancient cultures or in, say, the American south, your supposition that slavery in the Torah refers only to a type of indentured servitude is just flat out incorrect.

Show me from the Torah where I am wrong rabbi.
I love to learn from the masters.

 

[SA Huguenot]

I read your PDF and don't worry I didn't find your reply harsh

But lets go through some of it.

First can we agree that this is a good explanation of what slavery is?

The condition of being legally owned by someone else, or the system in which some people are owned by others

This is from the PDF:
1) Slavery was institutionalised to save poor family from starvation.

Reading Deuteronomy 15: 11 and Leviticus 25: 47 , we see that God says there will always be poor people in Israel. It is a sociological fact that no one can dispute.

So your argument is that "Slavery was institutionalized to save poor families from starvation" This is completely out of context with the actual text, as you make no differentiation between people here. But lets look at what the first verse you link to as proof actually means when read in correct context.

-----------------------
Deuteronomy 15
1 At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts.
2 This is how it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel any loan they have made to a fellow Israelite. They shall not require payment from anyone among their own people, because the Lord’s time for canceling debts has been proclaimed.
3 You may require payment from a foreigner, but you must cancel any debt your fellow Israelite owes you.
4 However, there need be no poor people among you, for in the land the Lord your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you,
5 if only you fully obey the Lord your God and are careful to follow all these commands I am giving you today.
6 For the Lord your God will bless you as he has promised, and you will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. You will rule over many nations but none will rule over you.
7 If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them.
8 Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need.
9 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin.
10 Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to.
11 There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land.
-----------------------

This have nothing to do with slavery, its about how you ought to treat your own people, and help those in needs. Because the Israelites are the chosen people of God and therefore they should help each other.

Then lets take a look at Leviticus 25: 47, again in correct context of the actual text. (I will have to choose specific verses, as it would be to much to quote it all here. But you have to include 8 - 54, so you can go read that in full.) But again who is God talking about here?

Leviticus 25
-----------------------
14 “‘If you sell land to any of your own people or buy land from them, do not take advantage of each other.
17 Do not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the Lord your God.
25 “‘If one of your fellow Israelites becomes poor and sells some of their property, their nearest relative is to come and redeem what they have sold.
26 If, however, there is no one to redeem it for them but later on they prosper and acquire sufficient means to redeem it themselves,
27 they are to determine the value for the years since they sold it and refund the balance to the one to whom they sold it; they can then go back to their own property.
28 But if they do not acquire the means to repay, what was sold will remain in the possession of the buyer until the Year of Jubilee. It will be returned in the Jubilee, and they can then go back to their property.
35 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and are unable to support themselves among you, help them as you would a foreigner and stranger, so they can continue to live among you. (Notice that this is not referring to slaves!! but people that might travel their lands.)
39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as SLAVES.
40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee.
41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors.
42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves.
43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
47 “‘If a foreigner residing among you becomes rich and any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to the foreigner or to a member of the foreigner’s clan,
-----------------------

So this makes a clear distinction between Israelites and slaves. Its not the same. So when you write: 1) Slavery was institutionalised to save poor family from starvation. Then it is simply not what the bible say. It say that you as an Israelite should treat your own people who are poor with charity and openness and not as slaves. Because they are the chosen ones.

Now since it should be obvious that there is a huge differences in what God means when talking about slaves and Israelites, and that these are two completely different things. I will for now stop going further with what you have written, until you have commented on this. Because if you don't agree that this difference is actually there, then the rest of the verses about slavery makes little sense.

But why do you think God is so keen on making sure that Israelites are not sold or treated as slaves?

Thanks for your hard work.
Allow me to come back in the weekend.

 

[blü 2]

OK! in the Torah:
What does it mean when God instructed Moses the following
Because Israel was a stranger in Egypt, God instructed them never to oppress the stranger in their land. (Exodus 22: 21[1] / Exodus 23: 9[2])
The stranger, non-Israelite, and the Israelite are both decreed to adhere to the same law. Both will be treated equally under the regulatory law of the Government. (Numbers 15: 16[3])
(Deuteronomy 24:7) If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you.



[1] Exo22:21 Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

[2] Exo23:9 Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

[3] Num15:16One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

So we're agreed that those quotes against slavery that I pointed out simply aren't there, aren't there, right?

And I gave you evidence from the Tanakh that slavery was an ordinary incident of Jewish society. (Slavery was an ordinary incident of virtually all societies back then.)

Knowing those things, see if you can work out for yourself what those quotes must therefore mean.

 

[danieldemol]

Accepted, as long as you read my attached PDF.
You will then realise that by comparing your summary with what the Bible reveals in what I collected from it, Wiki has less than half of what the Bible describes.
So which document will we accept, the one with half the truth, or the orher with every description of Slavery?

I read your apologetic, and found the Wikipedia article far more nuanced, and to be frank - more truthful.
But I suppose to a person who thinks rape in Biblical times is equivalent to being boyfriend and girlfriend in modern day language such a suggestion is probably falling on deaf ears.

 

[danieldemol]

Well, I agree with everything except for this:
You say: "However, both the Tanakh and the NT take slavery for granted as an ordinary incident of society, and accordingly the Tanakh sets out rules for buying and selling, bonking and freeing, your slaves; while Paul tells slaves to be good slaves, and neither he nor Jesus utters a word against it."

tell you what.
Show me where you read what you claim because I see this!
(Deuteronomy 24:7) If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you.

The problem is this only relates to stealing the “children of Israel” not to the taking of captives of war from other nations

And paul to Timothy say:
1Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Timothy 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for men-stealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

There are 2 problems with this passage.
1. It refers to "the law" which in this case is a reference to the Old Testament. According to religious apologist Denny Burk, 'Certainly, the background for Paul’s command is the Old Testament law:
Exodus 21:16 “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death” (ESV).' (From Seven reasons why you shouldn’t read 1 Timothy 6:1-2 as an endorsement of slavery) The problem here is that Exodus 21 is referring to the rules for Hebrew servants, not to the rules for non-Israelite war captives who worshipped foreign gods.

2. It is implied by the apologist that "contrary to sound doctrine" means contrary to what the post-modernist would consider sound doctrine, but in the context of Old testament law, or even in the Gospel itself, it is clear that slavery is permitted according to what was considered "sound doctrine" back then, for example 1 Timothy 6:1-2 says '1 Let all who are under the yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine may not be spoken against. 2 And let those who have believers as their masters not be disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but let them serve them all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are believers and beloved. Teach and preach these principles.'

And what about this?
Because Israel was a stranger in Egypt, God instructed them never to oppress the stranger in their land. Please note that YHWH says that Israel was a stranger in Egypt. They were underslavery and were not Egyptians. The stranger in the land of Israel is therefore not Israelites. (Exodus 22: 21[1] / Exodus 23: 9[2])
The stranger, non-Israelite, and the Israelite are both decreed to adhere to the same law. Both will be treated equally under the regulatory law of the Government. (Numbers 15: 16[3])
[1] Exo22:21 Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
[2] Exo23:9 Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
[3] Num15:16One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

1. Exodus is referring to a specific category of stranger here, it is referring to the foreigner that does not sacrifice to a foreign god (refer to Exodus 22:20 to see how the rules for foreigners who worship foreign gods are different to the one who sacrifices to the Israelite God)
2. Refers to a specific category of foreigner (in context of exodus it is the visiting foreigner who does not worship foreign gods as described in Exodus 22, the proof of which is that in Exodus 23:20-27 different rules are given for engaging in war with foreign nations that worship different gods
3. Refers to a specific category of foreigner for context read Numbers 15:13-16

Numbers ch15:13 “‘Everyone who is native-born must do these things in this way when they present a food offering as an aroma pleasing to the Lord. 14 For the generations to come, whenever a foreigner or anyone else living among you presents a food offering as an aroma pleasing to the Lord, they must do exactly as you do. 15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the foreigner residing among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the foreigner shall be the same before the Lord: 16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the foreigner residing among you.’”

As you can see from the above, it is a specific category of foreigner (ie the one visiting you who prepares sacrifices to and honours the Israelite God, not the one who honours other gods)

My conclusion: The Bible permits slavery

 

[SA Huguenot]

The problem is this only relates to stealing the “children of Israel” not to the taking of captives of war from other nations

The matter of facts in this analogy is that the Torah explicidly state 2 things on taking slaves.
1. Dont steal a person from amongst your own nation. You will receive a penalty for execution if you do.
2. Done treat the foreigner bad, you were a foreigner in Egypt, and you should not be as the Egyptions were when you were slaves in Egypt.

Now, you can take one verse and blow it up to prove slavery, but if you adhere to this law YHWH subscribed to Israel, you are unable to do 2 things.
1. You can never claim that Israel had slaves whom they captured from their own tribes.
2. You can never claim that israel was allowed that they could catch forreigners and make them slaves.
Follow up on that, Timothy is clear, the LAW prohibited manstealers!
Paul clearly refered to the Torah when he wrote that.
I went back and revisited this idea that somehow slavery was only intended for Israel if they caught and bought foreigners.
there was one verse stating that slaves will be your posession, and your children can inherrit them which gives the inpression that they were slaves forever.
This is however also untrue, for the law on slaves clearly say they will be slaves for only 6 years.
if the owner died say in the 3rd wear, the children would obviously have a right on the slave for a further 3 years.
Slaves who loved their masters, who decided to remain in his service, will also be the propperty of the children.
Again, taken into consideration that a Slave in the Bible is no more than a servant, everything makes sense when we holisticaly take all the laws in consideration.
Any country will take such a stance when making judgement on a case.
I will now step off Slavery.
My test to see the critisizm against it, are satisfied that the Bible never condoned slavery.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Yes of course the comparison is bad. As I said, because he mixes things together.

For instance this: Deuteronomy 15


These are not rules for slaves, this is basically someone that you hire as a servant (A jew, not some random slave). So in that case your master is taking care of you or basically adopting you, it seems. So obviously for us this makes little sense, why someone would need to have their ear pierced. But anyway So lets compare it to later in Deuteronomy to see the difference.

Deuteronomy 20



So in 11) and 14) we are talking about slaves and I doubt they have the same rights as a Jewish servant that is talked about in Deuteronomy 15. 16) and 17) are not even worthy of becoming slaves, they should just be destroyed because God don't like what they are doing.

To me if one is to understand what slavery is about in the bible, you have to make a distinction between what "type" of people that the verses refer to with great care.

I must say, well done Nimos.
For more than 10 years no one bothered to go and read and investigate what I wrote.
And you alone did and received with fruit from your labour.
I agree, the context on deuteronomy 15 is clear...this is regulations on how to purchace hebrews and to redeem them at the Sabathical year.
It is not a prescription for the Foreigner.
Leviticus 25 is also instructing the same thing, that the Hebrew slave should not be treated as a "Slave:.
And you ended off with Deut 20 where it say the inhabitants should be "taken as posession".

It should also be noted that this enslavement were only for the nations Israel should have anialated when they entered Canaan.
"Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee: "

The rest of the Bible is clear, you shall not opress the foreigner, for you were a foreigner in Egypt.

Why did God make this distinction on these nations?
This is a whole discussion on its own.
They attacked Israel from the rear during the Exodus. They used their Astoreth prostitution to seduce the israelite men in Ba'aal worship. They burned their firstborn babies to Hybaal. they practiced temple prostitution. Evidence is huge that they even practiced canibalism. they continiously attacked Israel, and for another 400 years after israel took Canaan, they kept on looting Israel.
Remember the story of Baalam, and Baalak where a prophet was paid to curse Israel, and after 7 attempts, Bilaam told Baalak that the only way to destroy Israel, was to use his women to seduce israel into idolatory.

In conclusion.
Israel was not to enslave their fellow Israelites.
They could enslave the canaanites.
They were to treat the Foreigner with respect and remember they were foreigners in Egypt.
The New Testament refers to the "LAW" and forbids Whoredom, manstealers etc.
therefore, except for the nations who God anialated through Israel, the Bible does not condone slavery.
And God anialated these nations for their own terror they created on earth, at least God can not be blamed for not taking action on the horrible humans that did what they practiced.

 

[Nimos]

I must say, well done Nimos.
For more than 10 years no one bothered to go and read and investigate what I wrote.
And you alone did and received with fruit from your labour.

I appreciate that reply a lot and that you are not trying to defend it with simply trying to talk around it or claiming that I just don't understand it, because im an atheist. I have said it in other posts as well regarding the bible, that even though I don't believe in it, it should be treated with respect and the text should not be represented wrong, neither by those that believe it and those that don't. So again your honesty and approach is very much appreciated.

Why did God make this distinction on these nations?
This is a whole discussion on its own.

I agree, to me and this is obviously a subjective opinion is that if one is to understand the bible, God and all the immoral things happening in it. You have to read it from the perspective of God and his relationship to Israel and its people. Once you do that, things will make a lot more sense. For instance when a verse says:

"Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee: "

Looking at this from our perspective in the current age this is clearly immoral, but looking at it from God's perspective and him being the Lord of what is right and wrong and wanting to protect the Jews, it makes a whole lot more sense and why this is in the bible and considered morally right, if you happen to be a Jew living in that time.

They could enslave the canaanites.

I think this is incorrect, at least if we look at Deu 20;17 in context. because if you read a bit further back you can see God gives examples of who could be potential slaves. And to me what God is saying here, is that these people or nations are not even worthy of being slaves, but should simply just be destroyed. And it is most likely as you write because they have done something to the Jews at some point, that have encourage an extra amount of hate towards them. At least that is how I understand it, but there might be other verses saying that Canaanites ought to be slaves as well. Im not sure about that.

 

[sooda]

On the one hand I don't know anyone who 'blames slavery on the bible'.

However, both the Tanakh and the NT take slavery for granted as an ordinary incident of society, and accordingly the Tanakh sets out rules for buying and selling, bonking and freeing, your slaves; while Paul tells slaves to be good slaves, and neither he nor Jesus utters a word against it.

The African slave trade was run in no small part by people who were Islamic, and their clients were in general both Islamic and Christian.

Christian slave owners quite correctly quoted the bible in support of the practice right up to and into the American Civil War.
See above for a quick overview of the actual historical position.

Hoe do you know the sellers were Muslim chieftains?

 

[sooda]

I must say, well done Nimos.
For more than 10 years no one bothered to go and read and investigate what I wrote.
And you alone did and received with fruit from your labour.
I agree, the context on deuteronomy 15 is clear...this is regulations on how to purchace hebrews and to redeem them at the Sabathical year.
It is not a prescription for the Foreigner.
Leviticus 25 is also instructing the same thing, that the Hebrew slave should not be treated as a "Slave:.
And you ended off with Deut 20 where it say the inhabitants should be "taken as posession".

It should also be noted that this enslavement were only for the nations Israel should have anialated when they entered Canaan.
"Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee: "

The rest of the Bible is clear, you shall not opress the foreigner, for you were a foreigner in Egypt.

Why did God make this distinction on these nations?
This is a whole discussion on its own.
They attacked Israel from the rear during the Exodus. They used their Astoreth prostitution to seduce the israelite men in Ba'aal worship. They burned their firstborn babies to Hybaal. they practiced temple prostitution. Evidence is huge that they even practiced canibalism. they continiously attacked Israel, and for another 400 years after israel took Canaan, they kept on looting Israel.
Remember the story of Baalam, and Baalak where a prophet was paid to curse Israel, and after 7 attempts, Bilaam told Baalak that the only way to destroy Israel, was to use his women to seduce israel into idolatory.

In conclusion.
Israel was not to enslave their fellow Israelites.
They could enslave the canaanites.
They were to treat the Foreigner with respect and remember they were foreigners in Egypt.
The New Testament refers to the "LAW" and forbids Whoredom, manstealers etc.
therefore, except for the nations who God anialated through Israel, the Bible does not condone slavery.
And God anialated these nations for their own terror they created on earth, at least God can not be blamed for not taking action on the horrible humans that did what they practiced.

I appreciate that reply a lot and that you are not trying to defend it with simply trying to talk around it or claiming that I just don't understand it, because im an atheist. I have said it in other posts as well regarding the bible, that even though I don't believe in it, it should be treated with respect and the text should not be represented wrong, neither by those that believe it and those that don't. So again your honesty and approach is very much appreciated.


I agree, to me and this is obviously a subjective opinion is that if one is to understand the bible, God and all the immoral things happening in it. You have to read it from the perspective of God and his relationship to Israel and its people. Once you do that, things will make a lot more sense. For instance when a verse says:

"Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee: "

Looking at this from our perspective in the current age this is clearly immoral, but looking at it from God's perspective and him being the Lord of what is right and wrong and wanting to protect the Jews, it makes a whole lot more sense and why this is in the bible and considered morally right, if you happen to be a Jew living in that time.


I think this is incorrect, at least if we look at Deu 20;17 in context. because if you read a bit further back you can see God gives examples of who could be potential slaves. And to me what God is saying here, is that these people or nations are not even worthy of being slaves, but should simply just be destroyed. And it is most likely as you write because they have done something to the Jews at some point, that have encourage an extra amount of hate towards them. At least that is how I understand it, but there might be other verses saying that Canaanites ought to be slaves as well. Im not sure about that.

 

[sooda]

Except it was a big lie.. The didn' destry th e Canaanites,

 

[Nimos]

Except it was a big lie.. The didn' destry th e Canaanites,

Not sure, what that have to do with anything?