Slavery in the Bible: more than meets the eye?

[SkepticThinker]

Your correct response: Apologize for using ad homs and calling me a whiner.

I didn't use any ad homs. Sorry, I don't apologize for things I didn't do. I do apologize if my whining comment upset you. I've repeatedly asked you to stick to the point rather than trailing off on these tangents where you complain about somebody referring to your baseless assertions as baseless assertions. Maybe don't make baseless assertions if you don't want that pointed out.

Perhaps you should apologize for intentionally straw manning my arguments, as you've admitted. Or for referring to people as "extra broken." I wouldn't force you to do that though.
I'd rather get back on topic. Again.

 

[viole]

So why did you ask? Because you have a double standard, misquoting the Bible where it suits you, calling the whole book a fraud where I show you to be baseless in your assertions.

Misquoting? What part of the sentence “slash the kids against the walls” is misquoted? Directly from your morality giver, apparently.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Moz]

Misquoting? What part of the sentence “slash the kids against the walls” is misquoted? Directly from your morality giver, apparently.

Ciao

- viole

Hi

Yes it is horrible stuff.
The fire bombing of German and Japanese civilians is also horrible stuff. Yet i can find no shortage of rational moralists that can not only excuse the slaughter but can justify it. They teach Augustines Just War Theory at West Point. It seems that human rationality can come up with situations where the unthinkable becomes very thinkable.
The American's, Germans, Russians and the British killed more babies in two world wars than in the entire history of Israel. Was that moral or immoral in your point of view?
...................................................................
There is a complex history to all this stuff that should be included in the background so this can be seen in its true context. Of course you are not interested in context or the why of any of this happened just the results.

Yes the conquest of Canaan was a brutal Bronze winner take all clash. They drove them out and killed the rest, mostly, but in actuality it was not as bad as the official propaganda lays it out. There is a Bronze age trope of hyperbolic poetic declaration of the annihilation of enemies. Look at the Babylonian, Summerian, Akkadian, Assyrian and Elamite reliefs, the Bibles pronouncements are part of that cultural millue.

After the conquest and into the 1000's there are no examples of Jewish baby killing expansionism.... NONE.
The actual history of the Jewish people from 1000bce to Jesus time shows them to progress to be the most peaceful, non expansionist and ordered society of the ancient world. Name me a single Bronze age polity that was better or more moral than the Jews. I can lay out dozens, with the historical references if you want, that were way way worse. Tell me what Bronze age contemporary nation had a better moral code than the Israelits?
..................................................................
You know, don't you, that the Bible shows a progressive taming of a particular people over 2000 years so that they could be in a position to culturally accept the message of peace that Jesus finally gives them in the 30's ce. From Bronze age barbarians to a nation where warfare is purely defensive, to a people who stopped fighting altogether as long as they could keep their way of life ,to the Christian declaration of "He who lives by the Sword will Die by the sword. Rome was not built in a day.
..................................................................

Peace.

 

[viole]

Hi

Yes it is horrible stuff.
The fire bombing of German and Japanese civilians is also horrible stuff. Yet i can find no shortage of rational moralists that can not only excuse the slaughter but can justify it. They teach Augustines Just War Theory at West Point. It seems that human rationality can come up with situations where the unthinkable becomes very thinkable.
The American's, Germans, Russians and the British killed more babies in two world wars than in the entire history of Israel. Was that moral or immoral in your point of view?
...................................................................
There is a complex history to all this stuff that should be included in the background so this can be seen in its true context. Of course you are not interested in context or the why of any of this happened just the results.

Yes the conquest of Canaan was a brutal Bronze winner take all clash. They drove them out and killed the rest, mostly, but in actuality it was not as bad as the official propaganda lays it out. There is a Bronze age trope of hyperbolic poetic declaration of the annihilation of enemies. Look at the Babylonian, Summerian, Akkadian, Assyrian and Elamite reliefs, the Bibles pronouncements are part of that cultural millue.

After the conquest and into the 1000's there are no examples of Jewish baby killing expansionism.... NONE.
The actual history of the Jewish people from 1000bce to Jesus time shows them to progress to be the most peaceful, non expansionist and ordered society of the ancient world. Name me a single Bronze age polity that was better or more moral than the Jews. I can lay out dozens, with the historical references if you want, that were way way worse. Tell me what Bronze age contemporary nation had a better moral code than the Israelits?
..................................................................
You know, don't you, that the Bible shows a progressive taming of a particular people over 2000 years so that they could be in a position to culturally accept the message of peace that Jesus finally gives them in the 30's ce. From Bronze age barbarians to a nation where warfare is purely defensive, to a people who stopped fighting altogether as long as they could keep their way of life ,to the Christian declaration of "He who lives by the Sword will Die by the sword. Rome was not built in a day.
..................................................................

Peace.

I find it always amazing that the genocides committed and commanded by God, are compared with Hitler, Stalin or Pol-Pot. It sounds like: Look, they were also very bad.

So, what is your point, apart from showing us that your God is not much better than them?

Ciao

- viole

 

[BilliardsBall]

I didn't use any ad homs. Sorry, I don't apologize for things I didn't do. I do apologize if my whining comment upset you. I've repeatedly asked you to stick to the point rather than trailing off on these tangents where you complain about somebody referring to your baseless assertions as baseless assertions. Maybe don't make baseless assertions if you don't want that pointed out.

Perhaps you should apologize for intentionally straw manning my arguments, as you've admitted. Or for referring to people as "extra broken." I wouldn't force you to do that though.
I'd rather get back on topic. Again.

The current topic is taking someone with hundreds of posts in dozens of subject areas, and instead of showing them a modicum of respect, say they make 100% baseless assertions.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Misquoting? What part of the sentence “slash the kids against the walls” is misquoted? Directly from your morality giver, apparently.

Ciao

- viole

YES, misquoting a half sentence to knock a volume of 66 books is not logical.

 

[sooda]

Hi

Yes it is horrible stuff.
The fire bombing of German and Japanese civilians is also horrible stuff. Yet i can find no shortage of rational moralists that can not only excuse the slaughter but can justify it. They teach Augustines Just War Theory at West Point. It seems that human rationality can come up with situations where the unthinkable becomes very thinkable.
The American's, Germans, Russians and the British killed more babies in two world wars than in the entire history of Israel. Was that moral or immoral in your point of view?
...................................................................
There is a complex history to all this stuff that should be included in the background so this can be seen in its true context. Of course you are not interested in context or the why of any of this happened just the results.

Yes the conquest of Canaan was a brutal Bronze winner take all clash. They drove them out and killed the rest, mostly, but in actuality it was not as bad as the official propaganda lays it out.

There is a Bronze age trope of hyperbolic poetic declaration of the annihilation of enemies. Look at the Babylonian, Summerian, Akkadian, Assyrian and Elamite reliefs, the Bibles pronouncements are part of that cultural millue.

After the conquest and into the 1000's there are no examples of Jewish baby killing expansionism.... NONE.
The actual history of the Jewish people from 1000bce to Jesus time shows them to progress to be the most peaceful, non expansionist and ordered society of the ancient world. Name me a single Bronze age polity that was better or more moral than the Jews. I can lay out dozens, with the historical references if you want, that were way way worse. Tell me what Bronze age contemporary nation had a better moral code than the Israelits?
..................................................................
You know, don't you, that the Bible shows a progressive taming of a particular people over 2000 years so that they could be in a position to culturally accept the message of peace that Jesus finally gives them in the 30's ce. From Bronze age barbarians to a nation where warfare is purely defensive, to a people who stopped fighting altogether as long as they could keep their way of life ,to the Christian declaration of "He who lives by the Sword will Die by the sword. Rome was not built in a day.
..................................................................

Peace.

Uh NO.... The archaeological evidence indicates that no Canaanite cities were destroyed. Joshua had no big armies,, The population of Jerusalem was under 1000 and the city was less than 10 acres.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The current topic is taking someone with hundreds of posts in dozens of subject areas, and instead of showing them a modicum of respect, say they make 100% baseless assertions.

Sorry, when you make baseless assertions, I'm going to point them out. Never have I said that 100% of your posts are baseless assertions. Quit it with the straw manning already, it's not an honest method of debate.

There's any easy way to avoid this though .... simply stop making baseless assertions. Back up your claims.
Easy peasy.

If you can't handle that, then I don't think you have any place hanging out on a debate forum. That's what goes on here. Nobody is going to apologize for asking you to back up your claims.

So again I have to ask for you to return to the discussion, rather than taking us off on this tangent where you complain about people asking you to back up your claims. The martyr complex is getting old.

 

[viole]

YES, misquoting a half sentence to knock a volume of 66 books is not logical.

I am a mathematician. The smallest error in a proof long several books, forces us to toss the whole thing.

But i cannot exclude that we set higher standard to our way of working than your God.

And how is that a misquoting? Another of those hebrew, double meaning, context dependent sentences?

Ciao

- viole.

 

[Moz]

I find it always amazing that the genocides committed and commanded by God, are compared with Hitler, Stalin or Pol-Pot. It sounds like: Look, they were also very bad.

So, what is your point, apart from showing us that your God is not much better than them?

Ciao

- viole

Hi

I have a couple of points, the first is that the Jewish Polity was the MOST peaceful, non expansionist, non pillaging, non murdering polity in the middle East.

Surley you have an objection to that statement i made if you think that God was sending them out as genocidal monsters. Address the point.
I notice that this is NEVER attributed to the superior moral code that the Jews were subject to. They could not RATIONALIZE their way to "world conquest: like ALL the other proto states that they lived amongst. Every group from the Mittani, Hurrian, Elamite, Akkadian, Egyptian, Hittite and a dozen other polities tried to follow the lead pf Sargon the Great. NOT the Hebrews. Their God would NOT allow it.

Yes the initial conquest of Caanan was horrendous. It is here that the "genocidal" instruction was given.
Do you know the details of this at all? The Jews requested right of passage to travel through Caananite territory, it is a common ancient convention, (Caesar and the Helveti for example) They were denied and met with military force. The convention in sutuations like this was total war. BOTH sides had vowed to wipe the other out and what happened happened. The Jews would have recieved exactely the same treatement if they had of lost.

I did point out the nature of Bronze age poetic declaration of intention but you seem to either be unaware of the practise or unwilling to look at the subject in its historical setting. Look at the History of Caanan AFTER the conquest and you will see that they did NOT kill very single Caananite in the region. Once the Caananites were driven from the borders promised to Israel they DID NOT continually seek out Caananites to kill. They actually lived alongside these people you claim they Genocided for the next 1000 years. It was only when people tried to invade that the Jews ever fought. They WERE NOT after conquest.

It is not interesting, it is to me at least, that the Laws that you hate actually brought about the most peaceful, non killy politiy in the ancient world.
.....................................................................
So, what is your point, apart from showing us that your God is not much better than them?
Another point is that War is Hell..... which is why i pointed out the HORRIBLE things that modern people can do with out the need for God to tell them too. And YES that is the EXACT point. God dealt with his enemies by THEIR RULES of engagement NOT his.
..............................................................................
So, what is your point, apart from showing us that your God is not much better than them?
Now for Christian warfare and genocide. For the first 300 years their was NO christian military on the planet. Human political control was enforced on the religion by the Roman Imperial system in the 300's and i take NO responsibility for what was done by this POLITICAL religious monster in the centuries that follow.
If you can show me how the initial teachings of Christ lead to christian bloodshed then i would be interested in your reasoning.
.........................................................................

For a debating platform you sure did overlook a lot of what i wrote. You did not have any response to the historical reasoning regarding the geo/political situation.

You also did not respond to the FACT that it was Augustines JUST WAR theory in the early 400's, which is based on rational philosophies, is responsible for the ocean of blood spilt by nominal christianity.

Is the reason for christian violence.......
1. the teachings of Jesus?
2. the imposition of national and imperial control in the 300's?

This is a debate... address the points please rather than just a pithy one liner ok.


Peace.

 

[sooda]

Hi

I have a couple of points, the first is that the Jewish Polity was the MOST peaceful, non expansionist, non pillaging, non murdering polity in the middle East.

Surley you have an objection to that statement i made if you think that God was sending them out as genocidal monsters. Address the point.
I notice that this is NEVER attributed to the superior moral code that the Jews were subject to. They could not RATIONALIZE their way to "world conquest: like ALL the other proto states that they lived amongst. Every group from the Mittani, Hurrian, Elamite, Akkadian, Egyptian, Hittite and a dozen other polities tried to follow the lead pf Sargon the Great. NOT the Hebrews. Their God would NOT allow it.

Yes the initial conquest of Caanan was horrendous. It is here that the "genocidal" instruction was given.
Do you know the details of this at all? The Jews requested right of passage to travel through Caananite territory, it is a common ancient convention, (Caesar and the Helveti for example) They were denied and met with military force. The convention in sutuations like this was total war. BOTH sides had vowed to wipe the other out and what happened happened. The Jews would have recieved exactely the same treatement if they had of lost.

I did point out the nature of Bronze age poetic declaration of intention but you seem to either be unaware of the practise or unwilling to look at the subject in its historical setting. Look at the History of Caanan AFTER the conquest and you will see that they did NOT kill very single Caananite in the region. Once the Caananites were driven from the borders promised to Israel they DID NOT continually seek out Caananites to kill. They actually lived alongside these people you claim they Genocided for the next 1000 years. It was only when people tried to invade that the Jews ever fought. They WERE NOT after conquest.

It is not interesting, it is to me at least, that the Laws that you hate actually brought about the most peaceful, non killy politiy in the ancient world.
.....................................................................
So, what is your point, apart from showing us that your God is not much better than them?
Another point is that War is Hell..... which is why i pointed out the HORRIBLE things that modern people can do with out the need for God to tell them too. And YES that is the EXACT point. God dealt with his enemies by THEIR RULES of engagement NOT his.
..............................................................................
So, what is your point, apart from showing us that your God is not much better than them?
Now for Christian warfare and genocide. For the first 300 years their was NO christian military on the planet. Human political control was enforced on the religion by the Roman Imperial system in the 300's and i take NO responsibility for what was done by this POLITICAL religious monster in the centuries that follow.
If you can show me how the initial teachings of Christ lead to christian bloodshed then i would be interested in your reasoning.
.........................................................................

For a debating platform you sure did overlook a lot of what i wrote. You did not have any response to the historical reasoning regarding the geo/political situation.

You also did not respond to the FACT that it was Augustines JUST WAR theory in the early 400's, which is based on rational philosophies, is responsible for the ocean of blood spilt by nominal christianity.

Is the reason for christian violence.......
1. the teachings of Jesus?
2. the imposition of national and imperial control in the 300's?

This is a debate... address the points please rather than just a pithy one liner ok.


Peace.

They didn't drive the Canaanites out either.. That's hot air.

 

[Moz]

They didn't drive the Canaanites out either.. That's hot air.

Hi
Yes you are right and i have been very general in my comments. It is hard enough to get people to respond to even general points so going into the details of how there was no genocide and that Caananite culture did co-exist with Israelite culture takes at least some willingness to discuss the historical findings and Viole has not come across as someone who wants to discuss details. I would have loved to write Her a more accurate and detailed outline but really would she have even bothered to consider it.... i doubt it.
Peace

 

[sooda]

Judaism and slavery

• Essenes. Thus, the Talmud (circa 200-500 CE) contains an extensive set of laws governing slavery,...
• Curse of Ham as a justification for slavery.
• Female slaves.
• Freeing a slave. The Jewish bible contained the rule that Jewish slaves would be released...
• Treatment of slaves. The Jewish bible and the Talmud contain various rules about how...

Judaism and slavery
www.sources.com/SSR/Docs/SSRW-Judaism_and_Slavery.htm

 

[BilliardsBall]

Sorry, when you make baseless assertions, I'm going to point them out. Never have I said that 100% of your posts are baseless assertions. Quit it with the straw manning already, it's not an honest method of debate.

There's any easy way to avoid this though .... simply stop making baseless assertions. Back up your claims.
Easy peasy.

If you can't handle that, then I don't think you have any place hanging out on a debate forum. That's what goes on here. Nobody is going to apologize for asking you to back up your claims.

So again I have to ask for you to return to the discussion, rather than taking us off on this tangent where you complain about people asking you to back up your claims. The martyr complex is getting old.

I agree with you. Thank you. What were we discussing?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I am a mathematician. The smallest error in a proof long several books, forces us to toss the whole thing.

But i cannot exclude that we set higher standard to our way of working than your God.

And how is that a misquoting? Another of those hebrew, double meaning, context dependent sentences?

Ciao

- viole.

How can a mathematician know about gematria and reject the Word of God?

How can a mathematician, who scored 100% on a test, disbelieve that fallible people could write a perfect text? How can that person not be able to work the formulae of the Bible (CONTEXT, ACCURATE QUOTATIONS, HISTORY) to misinterpret so badly, so often?

 

[viole]

How can a mathematician know about gematria and reject the Word of God?

How can a mathematician, who scored 100% on a test, disbelieve that fallible people could write a perfect text? How can that person not be able to work the formulae of the Bible (CONTEXT, ACCURATE QUOTATIONS, HISTORY) to misinterpret so badly, so often?

Gematria? Im am sure you mean geometry. Or at least I hope so.

Simple, I know pi is not equal 3. The value for pi found in the Bible. Therefore, if your God needs math classes, as it seems, I can help Him and explain Him how to correctly calculate it. I like to help the needy and the mathematical challenged. I accept divine students, too.

But of course, I am sure that if God existed, He would know what pi is. On the other hand, we cannot expect that level of sophistication from the real authors of Scriptures, namely those unknown bronze age goat herders who actually did not have a clue about pi, nor the rest we know today.

Ciao

- viole

 

[SkepticThinker]

I agree with you. Thank you. What were we discussing?

Slavery in the Bible.

 

[viole]

Hi

I have a couple of points, the first is that the Jewish Polity was the MOST peaceful, non expansionist, non pillaging, non murdering polity in the middle East.

Surley you have an objection to that statement i made if you think that God was sending them out as genocidal monsters. Address the point.
I notice that this is NEVER attributed to the superior moral code that the Jews were subject to. They could not RATIONALIZE their way to "world conquest: like ALL the other proto states that they lived amongst. Every group from the Mittani, Hurrian, Elamite, Akkadian, Egyptian, Hittite and a dozen other polities tried to follow the lead pf Sargon the Great. NOT the Hebrews. Their God would NOT allow it.

Yes the initial conquest of Caanan was horrendous. It is here that the "genocidal" instruction was given.
Do you know the details of this at all? The Jews requested right of passage to travel through Caananite territory, it is a common ancient convention, (Caesar and the Helveti for example) They were denied and met with military force. The convention in sutuations like this was total war. BOTH sides had vowed to wipe the other out and what happened happened. The Jews would have recieved exactely the same treatement if they had of lost.

I did point out the nature of Bronze age poetic declaration of intention but you seem to either be unaware of the practise or unwilling to look at the subject in its historical setting. Look at the History of Caanan AFTER the conquest and you will see that they did NOT kill very single Caananite in the region. Once the Caananites were driven from the borders promised to Israel they DID NOT continually seek out Caananites to kill. They actually lived alongside these people you claim they Genocided for the next 1000 years. It was only when people tried to invade that the Jews ever fought. They WERE NOT after conquest.

It is not interesting, it is to me at least, that the Laws that you hate actually brought about the most peaceful, non killy politiy in the ancient world.
.....................................................................
So, what is your point, apart from showing us that your God is not much better than them?
Another point is that War is Hell..... which is why i pointed out the HORRIBLE things that modern people can do with out the need for God to tell them too. And YES that is the EXACT point. God dealt with his enemies by THEIR RULES of engagement NOT his.
..............................................................................
So, what is your point, apart from showing us that your God is not much better than them?
Now for Christian warfare and genocide. For the first 300 years their was NO christian military on the planet. Human political control was enforced on the religion by the Roman Imperial system in the 300's and i take NO responsibility for what was done by this POLITICAL religious monster in the centuries that follow.
If you can show me how the initial teachings of Christ lead to christian bloodshed then i would be interested in your reasoning.
.........................................................................

For a debating platform you sure did overlook a lot of what i wrote. You did not have any response to the historical reasoning regarding the geo/political situation.

You also did not respond to the FACT that it was Augustines JUST WAR theory in the early 400's, which is based on rational philosophies, is responsible for the ocean of blood spilt by nominal christianity.

Is the reason for christian violence.......
1. the teachings of Jesus?
2. the imposition of national and imperial control in the 300's?

This is a debate... address the points please rather than just a pithy one liner ok.


Peace.

Yes, I did not claim we are better than God. I claim we are not worse, either.

Why we and god are morally so similar, is left as a simple exercise to the reader.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Moz]

Yes, I did not claim we are better than God. I claim we are not worse, either.

Why we and god are morally so similar, is left as a simple exercise to the reader.

Ciao

- viole

Hi
It seems to me that the use of the word WE somehow lumps all humanity into the same group somehow. That is inacurate. Morals are subjective to the circumstances aren't they?
..........................................................
But yes in a general sense ....We are morally similar to God........ because we were created in His image.
We know that the world we navigate is not one of Black and White dominated by instinct like our animals cousins. Choice brings consequence that need to be addressed. We live in a world of GREY not black and white.
................................................
I entered this because of your quote about "slashing babies up against a wall" and your appeal that this is somehow unacceptable behaviour for GOD to order of his people.

An eye for an eye seems to be a very moral principle. It is this exact principle that is extrapolated upwards to get to the passage that you claim is immoral. If the underlying principle is sound then so is the expansion.
If this was the exact same outcome that Israel were going to be subjected to if they lost is it still immoral?
....................................................
At the end of the day morality is defined as ...principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour. If both sides in a conflict agree to the rules of the conflict and are willing to take their chances how is the unsueing conflict immoral by any definition of the word? Surely "we makes our choices and we takes our chances "is moral at the core. That is biblical morality at its finest.

Peace





.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Hi
It seems to me that the use of the word WE somehow lumps all humanity into the same group somehow. That is inacurate. Morals are subjective to the circumstances aren't they?
..........................................................
But yes in a general sense ....We are morally similar to God........ because we were created in His image.
We know that the world we navigate is not one of Black and White dominated by instinct like our animals cousins. Choice brings consequence that need to be addressed. We live in a world of GREY not black and white.
................................................
I entered this because of your quote about "slashing babies up against a wall" and your appeal that this is somehow unacceptable behaviour for GOD to order of his people.

An eye for an eye seems to be a very moral principle. It is this exact principle that is extrapolated upwards to get to the passage that you claim is immoral. If the underlying principle is sound then so is the expansion.
If this was the exact same outcome that Israel were going to be subjected to if they lost is it still immoral?
....................................................
At the end of the day morality is defined as ...principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour. If both sides in a conflict agree to the rules of the conflict and are willing to take their chances how is the unsueing conflict immoral by any definition of the word? Surely "we makes our choices and we takes our chances "is moral at the core. That is biblical morality at its finest.

Peace


.

And what if someone doesn't think "an eye for an eye" is a "very moral principle?"

Dashing babies heads against rocks doesn't strike me as a particularly moral thing to do, even if someone slashed your own baby's head against a rock first. Does it seem "very moral" to you, and something that a "very moral" God would endorse as a "very moral" thing to do in a book that is meant to teach mankind universal moral principles?