Slavery to Krishna?

[Madhuri]

Everywhere I read that the relationship that Krishna devotees aspire to is of eternal servitude. They make it seem like they end up being godslaves! However, in the months I've meditated with the Harinama and other Krishna mantras I felt my relationship with Him was more like a Father-son or friendship relationship. What do you think?

The servitude is linked to devotion. When you love someone with your whole heart and soul, it's natural to want to care for and serve that person. Loving God/Krishna is more special than loving a single individual- Krishna is Love itself. And furthermore, he is the Soul within every soul. So to love Krishna, to be the servant of Krishna, is to be a servant of everyone and every thing.

But it's important to be aware that devotees of Krsna often believe that each individual holds an eternal and unique relationship with him. One person might, in the eternal abode of the Lord, feel maternal/paternal toward Krishna. Another will feel like a friend. Another like a child of God. Perhaps even as a lover. So feelingthat father-son or friendship connection is completely normal and valid.

 

[agorman]

we have no desire to merrge with an impersonal Brahman but wish to remain eternaly devoted to the lotus feet of our Lord.

So are the only choices merging with Brahman or becoming a servant of God? Isn't there a way I can become a free atma having a good time wherever I want? Suppose I want an afterlife in a Celtic Paradise (i.e. Tír na nÓg). It wouldn't be fair for Krishna if I worship Him but I'd like to end up in another place that is not Vrindavan.

On the other hand, if Krishna is really the Universal God, maybe after reaching Vrindavan, I could move to Tír na nÓg and still be with Krishna; but maybe I would see Him in another shape.

Or maybe Vrindavan is just a name for a Paradise where you can imagine the place you like and poof! it appears before you. If this is the case, then Indian pictures just show an Indian appearance of Krishna.

Best wishes for your practice.

Oh thanks, but I still don't know if I'll go back to Krishna worship, LOL, maybe I will!

 

[Madhuri]

So the only choices are either merging with Brahman or becoming a servant of God? Isn't there a way I can become a free atma having a good time wherever I want? Suppose I want an afterlife in a Celtic Paradise (i.e. Tir nan og). It wouldn't be fair for Krishna if I worship Him but I'd like to end up in another place that is not Vrindavan.

We already are servants of God though, no matter what we think or do. I mean that's one way of looking at it. Another way to look at it is that we are an eternal aspect of God, part and parcel of his Being. 'Servant' is a word that has been chosen to depict a particular role or function we play but is not quite the same as how we use it when we refer to a human role.

According to philosophies that are not monistic, you will retain your individuality eternally. Most Krishna devotees believe that. The Spiritual World, as we call it in English, is infinite. It is not one place. As where we go in that realm is not a single destination. If you happen to have an eternal relationship with the Lord in his form as Krishna in Vrindavana, then that is where you go. But you could end up in Vaikuntha where Krishna is king or with Rama etc etc. According to the Gaudiya beliefs that represent these beliefs, you already are someone in the Spiritual World. When your journey here ends, you go to fulfill your true destiny so to speak in your real eternal form. So in a sense there is no 'choice' as you said. You are who you are and your relationship with God is eternally decided.

And if that is true- you won't actually ever want to be or do anything else.

On the other hand, if Krishna is really the Universal God, maybe after reaching Vrindavan, I could move to Tir nan og and still be with Krishna, but maybe I would see Him in another shape.

Or maybe Vrindavan is just a name for a Paradise where you can imagine the place you like and poof! it appears before you. If this is the case, then Indian pictures just show an Indian appearance of Krishna.

Well the place is made of spirit, it isn't physical. You could probably make anything appear at will. Then again the whole concept of the Spiritual World is not clearly explained or understood so I don't think we can conclude much in this regard.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Thank you very much to all for clarifying the matter about Krishna.

Now Sha'irullah, I'm curious, now what is your relationship with Satan? master-servant, father-son, friendship, lovers, etc.?

My relationship with Satan is master-slave like I learned with Vaishnavism. What I expressed earlier is what I do with Satanism and I learned this all from Hinduism and specifically Shaivism and Vaishnavism. You seem to think that the master-servant relationship serves no purpose and that there is no goal at the end. I have the mentality of a traditional Shaivite so I abhor the self because it is weak and ridden with fallacies and errors. Much like Jacob it is a matter of being "Nearer, My God, to Thee". Buddhist and Hindus have this in common actually in that many Hindus and Buddhist love the concept of the individuality but abhor the concept of the self. They are not related trust me. The reason why you find this master-servant paradigm in cults orientated around Sri Visnu is that they want to be like the supreme.
I like Prabhupada for this message although I disagreed with him on a lot of things. The slave is never the looser because the more you are enslaved to Sri Krsna(or whatever god) the more you become like that god. You begin to express your individuality with divine qualities. It is the only time that a slave/servant gains all the benefits of a relationship.

You must look at this in terms of goals being met and they are very satisfactory goals I may add.

Side note: I feel so happy hanging out with Hindu crowd again

 

[Jainarayan]

According to philosophies that are not monistic, you will retain your individuality eternally. Most Krishna devotees believe that. The Spiritual World, as we call it in English, is infinite. It is not one place. As where we go in that realm is not a single destination. If you happen to have an eternal relationship with the Lord in his form as Krishna in Vrindavana, then that is where you go. But you could end up in Vaikuntha where Krishna is king or with Rama etc etc. According to the Gaudiya beliefs that represent these beliefs, you already are someone in the Spiritual World. When your journey here ends, you go to fulfill your true destiny so to speak in your real eternal form. So in a sense there is no 'choice' as you said. You are who you are and your relationship with God is eternally decided.

I think this is the premise of achintya bhedabheda and visishtadvaita (I don't think they are all that dissimilar)... inconceivable sameness and difference. We are the same as God and part of God, yet different, but the human mind can't comprehend it.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram shiva fan ji

These sects have many technical terms about the intrinsic natures of this love, including servant, but they also use the term "I am the servant of the servant". What does this mean? Let me exp,ain.

jai jai now you have touched on a very important sentiment and higer realisation amongst Vaisnavas

I do not want to go the nuances of such technical terms of the types of relationships with Krishna, let the Gaudiyas do that since I am a Saiva. But it is not slavery. Slavery state does exist in Hinduism, for example in the sects of Manasa or Snake Goddess where She is VERY possessive of Her devotees and refuses to share their attention such that She will project a mystic on Her devotees where slavery to the Gauri is indeed expected, but this does not exist in these Krishna sects. Avoiding the nuances, since I am a Saiva, let me just cut to the chase and make it simple.

you are perfectly right , the servitude of a Vaisnava is totaly voluntary and in its purest form comes pure humility ,

The servant of the servant means within such Krishna sects of Prema Bhakti, ASSOCIATION with Krishna devotees is VERY important. So such a devotee sees every other devotee as superior, thus they think to serve the devotees is "ecstasy", a statement of humility to such devotees by another devotee in "I am the servant of the servant" is that they are projecting themself lower than the other devotee (even though they are themself a devotee) and saying "I want to get closer to Krishna, and if you are a Servant in the House of Krishna, then if I become your servant than perhaps I can get closer to Krishna since I am in love with Krishna".

dasa dasanu dasa , .....comes from the Chaitanya Caritamrita , ...where srila Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami speaks thus ......'' I am the servant to the servant of the lords lotus feet ''......

here he speaks of the devotion of the guru to his master , ...as the true guru acts only to serve at the feet of his master whom he regards as the servant of his master before him and each master in turn served at the lords lotus feet by serving his own master .... it is this understanding that the Guru parampara comes down to us directly from Lord Chaitanya who is noneother than Sri Krsna himself in the guise if his own devotee .

thus the attitude of dasa dasanu dasa is the atitude of the deepest loving humility .
this attitude goes beyond the comon understanding of love as it goes beyond our need for that love to be returned and beyond our personal wanting even to be closer , it is purely wanting to give serva without any condition .

Understand?

But ultimately, it is about love.

Now to get to the crux of the matter of this love.

in these sects, love means Two. Meaning love cannot exist unless there is a minimum of two. The lover and the object of love. But in Prema Bhakti, this love or Prema can only exist if the devotee is SEPARATE from Krishna. Meaning they love Krishna, Krishna is the object, and the love itself can only exist if both are existing, i.e. Two.

This is not slavery. To this end, the love is so nice they want it to last forever, thus they do not want to be anything but a devotee, e.g. TWO EXIST.

"Can I serve you Krishna with sweet rice?", e.g. can I be before You and relish Your vision? "Oh, let me make a garland (for You)", another chance to relish. These are called Leelas.

Om Namah Sivaya

jai jai , this is our love , you will see this love on Sri Krsna Janmasthami , when everyone brings gifts for Bala Krsna , ...the mothers have made him sweet rice and other delights and even children bring him gifts , ....and on this one day they can aproach Bala Krsna on his jhulan and swing him then you will see the different moods of love we have for Krsna .

and of course Garlands and new clothing , we can express our love in many ways it is up to our imagination ....what we think we can do which will please and show our fondness .

but yes , ...you have also pointed to the other important difference there is no desire to become one with Krsna therefore we see this 'inconceivable oneness and difference' .....

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram

Buddhist and Hindus have this in common actually in that many Hindus and Buddhist love the concept of the individuality but abhor the concept of the self. They are not related trust me. The reason why you find this master-servant paradigm in cults orientated around Sri Visnu is that they want to be like the supreme.

unfortunately as a vaisnava I canot agree with this as a reason , a vaisnava realises the etternal difference between himself and the supreme , we can aquire more virtious qualities but never the fullness of qualities of the Lord whos qualities are eternaly complete .

not I or any other vaisnava would want to be like the supreme , ones natural devotion is allways towards that which we know to be beyond our capabilities to atain .

we might addopt behaviors that are dear to the supreme and by such action become steadily closer to that supreme but to assume we can become like him is not a thought entertained , thus humility plays a large part of the vaisnavas demeanour in the presence of the supreme .

I like Prabhupada for this message although I disagreed with him on a lot of things. The slave is never the looser because the more you are enslaved to Sri Krsna(or whatever god) the more you become like that god. You begin to express your individuality with divine qualities. It is the only time that a slave/servant gains all the benefits of a relationship.

You must look at this in terms of goals being met and they are very satisfactory goals I may add.

there is no slave only devotee who thinks him self the servant , this is a state of supreme humility , and eventualy there is no goal to atain and no wish to become any other than the humble servant , .....and of Benifits ? ....the devotee cares not for himself , although the reward that one has long since ceased to seek is a state of permenant bliss which comes through selfless service , ......it is a spontanious state and a natural progression one reaches through faithfull execution of ones sadhana .

 

[Sha'irullah]

namaskaram

[/B]

unfortunately as a vaisnava I canot agree with this as a reason , a vaisnava realises the etternal difference between himself and the supreme , we can aquire more virtious qualities but never the fullness of qualities of the Lord whos qualities are eternaly complete .

not I or any other vaisnava would want to be like the supreme , ones natural devotion is allways towards that which we know to be beyond our capabilities to atain .

we might addopt behaviors that are dear to the supreme and by such action become steadily closer to that supreme but to assume we can become like him is not a thought entertained , thus humility plays a large part of the vaisnavas demeanour in the presence of the supreme .




there is no slave only devotee who thinks him self the servant , this is a state of supreme humility , and eventualy there is no goal to atain and no wish to become any other than the humble servant , .....and of Benifits ? ....the devotee cares not for himself , although the reward that one has long since ceased to seek is a state of permenant bliss which comes through selfless service , ......it is a spontanious state and a natural progression one reaches through faithfull execution of ones sadhana .

You just repeated what I said

express your individuality with divine qualities

 

[ratikala]

You just repeated what I said

please read again ......

Ok ....put more bluntly ...No a vaisnava does not want to be like the supreme ....!

he wants to be the supremes most humble servant .

 

[Stormcry]

we have no desire to merge with an impersonal Brahman but wish to remain eternaly devoted to the lotus feet of our Lord.

And we vaishnawas too don't have desire to become Vishnu as we know Atma gets body of Vishnu in Vaikuntha and is exactly similar like Vishnu's. But topmost vaishnawas gets their very self which is none other than Vishnu. In short, Dvaitian vaishnawas get the body of vishnu while Advaitian vaishnawas get Vishnu's Atma itself. Upanishada's one of the most popular statements : " ब्रह्म वेद ब्रह्मैव भवति " - " Knower of Brahman becomes Brahman indeed " Besides we have a very strong supports from Bhagavata Purana. Krishna himself says Jiva merges in me. So who'd disagree with him? We vaishnawas are followers of Bhagavata Purana. We believe in what Shri krishna and sages had said.

Krishna says:

“ avam samahit……..jyotishi sanyutam “ (BP 11.14.45)

Meaning: With his intellect thus established, he sees me in himself and himself actually merged in me (bramhan) like an individual light in the element of fire.

Jiva gives up the false self- individuality and unites with Brahman itself. Because only Brahman is the self of all jivas.

“satvam chabhijayed ………jivam vihay mam “ ( BP 11.25.35)

Meaning: The Jeeva having been free from Gunas, and having dropped the idea that it is Jeeva, attains Me and thus Jeeva freed from its separateness and liberated from Gunas unites with Me. ( bramhan)

 

[agorman]

Hinduism♥Krishna, I've heard the Puranas are not to be trusted very much. Besides, one thing is Krishna as the origin of atmas and another is saying that we are all Krishna Himself. Anyway, maybe it's all a matter of intention. If you don't want to merge with Krishna, well, you will not! Besides, I don't understand that obsession with merging. If everybody would merge with God, then God would end up alone, with only love for Himself. Boring!

Sha'irullah, why Satan and not Krishna?

 

[Stormcry]

Hinduism♥Krishna, I've heard the Puranas are not to be trusted very much.

From whom? I challenge you to name just one traditional realised sage like Adi Shankara, who denied authenticity of Purana .. Are you aware that Veda mentions Puranas as the fifth veda...

Besides, one thing is Krishna as the origin of atmas and another is saying that we are all Krishna Himself.

I think you have neither read Veda nor Purana. Who said Krishna is the origin of Atmas? Can you quote some scriptural supports? Yes , krishna as Brahman is the origin but of what? of Jivas, not of Atma. Because Brahma itself is the self of all jivas. That's why it is called as the origin of Jivas. There's a difference between jiva and atma. There's a upanishadik verse - Brahman desires to become many

If everybody would merge with God, then God would end up alone, with only love for Himself. Boring!

You say this because you have a pride caused by mind and intellect which is itself the bondage. Pride over individual consciousness alone is the bondage of Jiva. Who knows Brahman can not ever ask such absurd question as you asked here...

This merging is not the actual thing. Such merging is figuratively. It is as imaginary as the merging of space enclosed in the pot in the complete sky after getting broken. The truth is that Jivas was already Brahman. Because seeing the difference between jiva and brahman is like seeing the difference between the space between the pot and the complete space as a sky. The dull witted people impose the impurity of the dust to the pure sky. Your question's answer lies here.

Sha'irullah, why Satan and not Krishna?

What the hell is Satan doing here in Vedanta DIR? Can you please stop to spam here in this Sacred Vedanta DIR?

 

[Aupmanyav]

If everybody would merge with God, then God would end up alone, with only love for Himself. Boring!

Why is existence of God necessary? Perhaps it is some entity from which everything arises. One arisen, living things have different consciousnesses, and behave differently. Dead, they are again that entity. Out of the (dust, energy, or whatever), into the (dust, energy, or whatever). Maya.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Sha'irullah, why Satan and not Krishna?

I do not wish to take this off topic since I am not even a Hindu anymore(never was a great one).
I choose Satan purely because he best symbolizes how I view god and man. Hinduism was too deep rooted in Indian culture and I needed something so detached from dogmatism that there were absolutely no restrictive rules.
Hinduism is liberal but not enough for me. I need to grow and wiggle in my theistic shoes.
If you wish to talk about this further then you should make a separate thread about it. Not may people have left Hinduism for Satanism now that I think about it

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

I think Hinduism(l)Krishna hit a very important point: ego.

When Ego is talking it is like lies. It will only seek to protect himself, to assert its existence, to try to prove the world that it is he the eternal, that it will never die. This is like that that people think they live forever. Allowing the Ego to roam free is allowing every desire and greed to take over oneself is like shielding himself from self realisation (of what is already here) and just turn in circle for countless births.

"All activities are being enacted by the senses of the material nature without exception, but the unrealized, deluded by false identification of being the body, thus think "I am the doer" "

"Begiled by false identification of the bodily senses of the material nature they become entangled into fruitive activity. One in perfect knowledge should not disturb those unintelligent persons lacking knowledge"

"Attraction and aversion of the senses to their corresponding sense objects is unavoidable, one should not be controlled by them, since they are obstacle to one's path'"


The air in a pot is not different from the air of all the sky. It is the same. Yet the air in the pot is deluding itself by saying "I am the pot, I am unique". It stays in its lies an bound to its form and desires, without realizing that if the pot is broken, it is the same as the infinite sky.

What is the use of pursuing fruitless desires ? Tell me what the whole universe care about pleasure, pain and money ?

Our Gods does not fulfill those kind of things. They are not here to provide us endless enjoyement and to rain pleasure on us, they guide us to the highest realization. They give, they take, they bound and they free at the same time, for us to know the self. What is the use of what you desire for the whole universe ? You say Krishna is seated on a cloud somewhere with angels, what, are you also going to say that He drink tea with jesus every sunday on the cloud bar ? God is pervading the whole universe, not just a piece of cloud.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I want an afterlife in a Celtic Paradise (i.e. Tír na nÓg).

You are that (Tat twam asi). Do whatever you want to do with due consideration to your 'dharma', society. Perhaps Muslim paradise is much better than the Celtic paradise if you are after a 'paradise'. But are you sure, there is an afterlife? What do you take afterlife to be?

 

[agorman]

Oooh :faint: there's the discussion I didn't want to start again... Duality vs. Unity. If we are all a single Self then what's the point of love between 2 or more individuals? No love, just an impersonal, universal "thing". But I really don't want to enter into that again.

Perhaps Muslim paradise is much better than the Celtic paradise if you are after a 'paradise'.

LOL I don't think I'm perfect enough to reach the Muslim paradise. Maybe nobody is (as in the case of the Christian paradise).

Sha'irullah, I think Satan sticked his tail in the wrong DIR, LOL! Sorry, I should have asked you in another one.

 

[Desert Snake]

Oooh :faint: there's the discussion I didn't want to start again... Duality vs. Unity. If we are all a single Self then what's the point of love between 2 or more individuals? No love, just an impersonal, universal "thing". But I really don't want to enter into that again.



LOL I don't think I'm perfect enough to reach the Muslim paradise. Maybe nobody is (as in the case of the Christian paradise).

Sha'irullah, I think Satan sticked his tail in the wrong DIR, LOL! Sorry, I should have asked you in another one.

Sometimes just creating threads in non DIRs is more appropriate to certain discussions, especially if you want everyone to be able to participate.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If we are all a single Self then what's the point of love between 2 or more individuals? No love, just an impersonal, universal "thing". But I really don't want to enter into that again.

In that case, do not be a staunch bhakta of Krishna (like Chaitanya), otherwise you would be doing nothing else but chanting in the afterlife; but do just enough good to enter Indra's heaven, where you have ample supply of booze and beautiful women (apsaras) performing dances for you. Of course, it would not last for an eternity. You will need to come back. Advice: Be good, but do not be too good.

 

[ratikala]

Hmmm !

In that case, do not be a staunch bhakta of Krishna (like Chaitanya), otherwise you would be doing nothing else but chanting in the afterlife; but do just enough good to enter Indra's heaven, where you have ample supply of booze and beautiful women (apsaras) performing dances for you. Of course, it would not last for an eternity. You will need to come back. Advice: Be good, but do not be too good.

you canot just decide to do good for an efect of getting a reward !!!

if what you want is booze and women then you may just end up back here , ...but ubder the illusion that booze and women equals heaven ....its called mAyA !