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Snowflakes....designed or accidents of nature?

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Everything put in the Watch Tower is run by the JW corporations in NY before publication's, they don't do peer review. LOL

They also basically stopped the fight in the 1980's because it wasn't going well for them on the evolution front. Hence, the very outdated and ridiculous information.

They were and are wrong about Earthquake increases as well.

Facts about Earthquakes since 1914 and Jehovah's Witnesses


"
Many opinions I held as a Witness regarding doctrine, life and other people were wrong, due to an upbringing filled predominantly with information provided by the Watchtower. With Watchtower leaders claiming to be dispensing information from God, a Witness child's critical thinking skills are bypassed, and they accept Watchtower statements as truth.

This section links to a variety of Watchtower related topics not related to doctrine, covering common misconceptions held by Jehovah's Witnesses, along with a range of topics helpful when one is contemplating whether or not they should remain associated with the organization."

Interesting Watchtower Topics
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
Please be so kind as to define "kind" in a meaningful and or useful manner.

The Genesis account puts forth the idea that each specific "kind" was a direct creation.
The Biblical “kinds” seem to constitute divisions of life-forms wherein each division allows for cross-fertility within its limits.
If so, then the boundary between “kinds” is to be drawn at the point where fertilization ceases to occur.

Thus, sterility is the delimiting factor as to what constitutes a “kind.” This phenomenon makes possible, through the test of sterility, the determining of the boundaries of all the “kinds” in existence today.

With this model, the complete inability of to hybridize two separate creations would be proof that they are not of the same created “kind”. Since "kind" and "species" do not go by the same definition there can be some confusion between what seems related.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
@Ouroboros thank you for the tone of your reply. It is so much easier talking to someone who can keep their emotions in check and answer without the condescension and hostility.

Agreeing to disagree is a much nicer option than some have taken on this thread.

We are all entitled to our view without jamming it down anyone's throat in a threatening or aggressive manner.



Thank you for the question.......

The Creator gave humankind the perfect start. The earth, along with its extraordinary eco-systems was complete long before man ever drew breath. The food provided for all living creatures was perfect food and the air and water were also uncontaminated. Animals were designed with a perpetual life cycle, so death is a natural part of their existence.

Bacteria is a life form and so many bacteria are beneficial to the operation of the body. We know that our whole digestive system relies on it to function correctly. Our bodies and the bodies of all other creatures are crawling with a host of "good" bacteria....all designed to function symbiotically. We couldn't live without them.

Bodily perfection would mean all things were working in perfect balance within a pristine environment....with no pollution of any sort and no bodily imperfection to cause mutations.

As mankind spread his paradise conditions earth-wide (which was the original mandate) humans would encounter different environments and adapt to them as animals had done before him. All these adaptations would have been within the limits that God programmed into each creature according to his design.

I believe that mutations have an environmental cause that facilitate the changes. When the environment changes, living things adapt to the change. This is what we observe. The extent of the change is what we will differ on.

We see this ability to adapt in all living things.....it is a slow but automatic response to environmental factors. Adaptation facilitates life in an altered environment. No? This is the "evolution" that we agree on.

So what changed? According to the Bible....everything changed.



Neither scenario is true.

A perfectly functioning immune system is designed to keep "intruders" out. It doesn't mean that intruders didn't exist, but that human bodies had a defence system designed to detect these 'intruders' and destroy them, without us even being aware that this was taking place. Natural defence barriers kept humans healthy and resistant to any infiltration of foreign bacteria. Hence no disease was possible. Their life, though mortal was not designed to end. As long as they obeyed their Creator there was nothing that could harm them.

When humans rebelled and left their Creator in favor of independently ruling themselves, he in turn removed his protection of them and allowed them to reap the consequences of their choice.

First of all he cursed the ground that would grow their food. His blessing would no longer guarantee their food supply. He would let them supply their own food. They couldn't just wander over to a lush fruit tree in the garden and select their meal. Now they had to cultivate unproductive soil, which would grow copious weeds and thorny plants to compete with any food crops they may plant. Food now came as a result of hard sweaty labor and poor yield.

"Death" was the penalty was for their disobedience. It is not stated "how" the death penalty was implemented. But physical, mental, and spiritual perfection was now lost and the process of cell renewal in their bodies would begin to break down. Aging was never in the original plan for humans, but now their bodies would begin to deteriorate and their immune systems would no longer keep 'intruders' out as perfectly as before. This would facilitate the mutations that bacteria and viruses are known for....a changed environment. Still a measure of protection was there because their bodies were still close to perfection. With each successive generation however, the imperfection and decline would increase. A less than optimum diet from an unproductive earth and a propensity to make bad decisions because of losing their perfect abilities, would take its toll.

We see down through human history that life spans were directly related to how healthy their diet was and the standard of hygiene they kept.
Even today, we see the same thing. Even in countries where food is abundant, laziness and the availability of cheap junk food has caused an epidemic of grossly obese people who are basically malnourished. A malnourished brain is not one that functions well. People are dying from preventable diseases and making drug companies rich through their programmed ignorance. Science cannot abdicate their role in this scenario.

GMO crops are altering the human digestive system. When science interferes with the natural world, trouble always follows. Why? Because profit is always driving their decisions. They are clever at manipulating nature but what is the real cost? At a time when science is supposedly so clever...why are so many still succumbing to cancers, heart disease and neurological disorders such as Alzheimer's Disease? Why is it that all these "breakthrough's" in scientific research never quite materialize into the cures we all need? How much money is poured into these things and we are all still dropping like flies?



All creatures on the ark would have carried bacteria....that is a strange thing for a science savvy person to say. Even you would know that.
You seem to demonstrate as much ignorance about creation as you assume that I demonstrate about evolution. :confused:

Please understand that I am not a theistic creationist. I do not subscribe to Christendom's view of anything...period.

Creationists give true Christianity a bad name. One can find the balanced view by taking all things into account. There does not need to be compromise.

The difference between adaptation, which we can call "micro-evolution" cannot be used to stretch it beyond what is seen, even in the fossil record.
The specimen you provided in the pic does not necessarily have to be an evolved species. Why couldn't it have been created with those feathers?

In the Genesis account, the "winged creatures" would have been anything that flew. These came after the living creatures that God began to create in the water. The Genesis account tallies with the order in which living things appeared.

The Genesis "days" were not 24 hour periods, but may well have been epochs of long duration. The Bible allows for all that we see in a reasonable compliance with what science can actually prove.
There is an old earth that God made habitable over a very long period of time. The Bible allows for this too.

But where we part company is where science fact crosses over into science fiction. All of the evidence for their "macro-evolution" theory is based on "micro-evolutionary" evidence. That is where the "might have's" and the "could have's" start creeping into the language. Its subtle, but it's there.

I will never be convinced otherwise no matter how many "proofs" are offered. I am guessing that the same is true for die hard evolutionists. We will each accept what our mind and hearts want to accept...and that is how it should be.

The readers will form their own opinions. :)


You didn't address viruses?

"Bacteria is a life form and so many bacteria are beneficial to the operation of the body. We know that our whole digestive system relies on it to function correctly. Our bodies and the bodies of all other creatures are crawling with a host of "good" bacteria....all designed to function symbiotically. We couldn't live without them."

SOME are benefical because we evolved along with them as well as viruses, its in our DNA. However, many are not and cause huge problems in the immune system in the GI tract.

"creatures are crawling with a host of "good" bacteria....all designed to function symbiotically."

Again, some are good and some are VERY BAD. They also mutate, through evolution.

Where did ebola come from? Was it designed to function symbiotically?

What is macroevolution?

Macroevolution generally refers to evolution above the species level. So instead of focusing on an individual beetle species, a macroevolutionary lens might require that we zoom out on the tree of life, to assess the diversity of the entire beetle clade and its position on the tree.

macro.gif

Macroevolution refers to evolution of groups larger than an individual species.


3domains3.gif


The history of life, on a grand scale.
Macroevolution encompasses the grandest trends and transformations in evolution, such as the origin of mammals and the radiation of flowering plants. Macroevolutionary patterns are generally what we see when we look at the large-scale history of life.

It is not necessarily easy to "see" macroevolutionary history; there are no firsthand accounts to be read. Instead, we reconstruct the history of life using all available evidence: geology, fossils, and living organisms.

Once we've figured out what evolutionary events have taken place, we try to figure out how they happened. Just as in microevolution, basic evolutionary mechanisms like mutation, migration, genetic drift, and natural selection are at work and can help explain many large-scale patterns in the history of life.

The basic evolutionary mechanisms — mutation, migration, genetic drift, and natural selection — can produce major evolutionary change if given enough time.




macroequation.gif

dot_clear.gif

Download this, and the graphic at the top of the page, from the Image library.


A process like mutation might seem too small-scale to influence a pattern as amazing as the beetle radiation, or as large as the difference between dogs and pine trees, but it's not. Life on Earth has been accumulating mutations and passing them through the filter of natural selection for 3.8 billion years — more than enough time for evolutionary processes to produce its grand history.

What is macroevolution?



5 Signs Humans Are Still Evolving

"
When we think of human evolution, our minds wander back to the thousands of years it took natural selection to produce the modern-day man. But are we still changing as a species, even today? New research suggests that, despite modern technology and industrialization, humans
continue to evolve
. "It is a common misunderstanding that evolution took place a long time ago, and that to understand ourselves we must look back to the hunter-gatherer days of humans," says Dr. Virpi Lummaa from the University of Sheffield's department of animal and plant sciences.

But not only are we still evolving, we're doing so even faster than before. In the last 10,000 years, the pace of our evolution has sped up 100 times, creating more mutations in our genes, and more natural selections from those mutations. Here are some clues that show humans are continuing to evolve.

1. WE DRINK MILK
Historically, the gene that regulated a human's ability to digest lactose shut down as they were weaned off of their mother's breast milk. But when we began domesticating cows, sheep and goats, being able to drink milk became a nutritionally advantageous quality, and people with the genetic mutation that allowed them to digest lactose were better able to propagate their genes.

A 2006 study suggests this tolerance for lactose was still developing as early as 3,000 years ago in East Africa. That genetic mutation for digesting milk is now carried by more than 95 percent of Northern European descendants."

WE'RE LOSING OUR WISDOM TEETH

WE'RE RESISTING DISEASES

OUR BRAINS ARE SHRINKING

WE HAVE BLUE EYES

5 Signs Humans Are Still Evolving | Mental Floss


 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
The only thing I can add is that the curse on the ground was lifted with the Flood. The earth no longer resists cultivation like it did prior. (Ge 5:29; 8:21,22) But this detail is not relevant to your line of reasoning. I think it sums things up rather well.

It is not that we are trying to be dishonest. We simply do not agree that what is called "micro-evolution" by some is proof of "macro-evolution."
Which is pointless, given that macro evolution (speciation) is a proven fact anyway. Sounds pretty dishonest to me.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
The Genesis account puts forth the idea that each specific "kind" was a direct creation.
The Biblical “kinds” seem to constitute divisions of life-forms wherein each division allows for cross-fertility within its limits.
If so, then the boundary between “kinds” is to be drawn at the point where fertilization ceases to occur.

Thus, sterility is the delimiting factor as to what constitutes a “kind.” This phenomenon makes possible, through the test of sterility, the determining of the boundaries of all the “kinds” in existence today.

With this model, the complete inability of to hybridize two separate creations would be proof that they are not of the same created “kind”. Since "kind" and "species" do not go by the same definition there can be some confusion between what seems related.
Oh ok - so then African Hunting Dogs are a different 'kind' than domestic dogs, because they can not hybridise. So macro evolution (speciation) is thus proven to have occurred for dogs right?
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
Oh ok - so then African Hunting Dogs are a different 'kind' than domestic dogs, because they can not hybridise. So macro evolution (speciation) is thus proven to have occurred for dogs right?

I am unfamiliar with African Hunting Dogs. If they truly can't hybridize with other dogs, then they are not the same "kind" according to the way the Bible seems to define the word. With a refined understanding of what a "kind" is and a rough estimate of how many types of "kinds" are out there, would there not have been sufficient room on the Ark to carry two "kinds" of dogs?

Understanding "kind" in this way makes me hopeful to see live Mammoths and Aurochs someday, as they could be bred back into existence.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
I am unfamiliar with African Hunting Dogs. If they truly can't hybridize with other dogs, then they are not the same "kind", according to the way the Bible seems to define the word. With a refined understanding of what a "kind" is and a rough estimate of how many types of "kind" are out there, would there not have been sufficient room on the Ark to carry two "kinds" of dogs?
Great. So then African Hunting dogs (Lycaon Pictus) are a different 'kind' than domestic dogs (canis familiaris) so that is macro evolution right there isn't it?
Even better proof of macro evolution comes from YOUR worldview by the way. If all modern species evolved from the 'kinds' on the Ark, well that means that macro evolution not only happens - but according to JW creationism must happen at a far faster rate than science thinks.

There are 36 species of cats for example - if all 36 species evolved from the biblical 'kind' on the Ark, then macro evolution must be occurring at an astonishingly fast rate.

Did you realise that creationism demands that macro evolution not only occurs, but occurs thousands of times faster than science believes?

So you are denying macro evolution(because you imagine it is unobserved) , and at the same time arguing for super-dooper-high-speed macro evolution. Then you wonder why your honesty is so utterly demolished.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I am unfamiliar with African Hunting Dogs. If they truly can't hybridize with other dogs, then they are not the same "kind" according to the way the Bible seems to define the word.
Just how does the bible seem to define "kind"?


With a refined understanding of what a "kind" is and a rough estimate of how many types of "kinds" are out there, would there not have been sufficient room on the Ark to carry two "kinds" of dogs?
What is that refined understanding?

Understanding "kind" in this way makes me hopeful to see live Mammoths and Aurochs someday, as they could be bred back into existence.
Still puzzled. What does "understanding 'kind' in this way" consist of? From what I can gather, "kind" pretty much equates with species.

____________________________________________

Bunyip said:
Great. So then African Hunting dogs (Lycaon Pictus) are a different 'kind' than domestic dogs (canis familiaris) [Canis lupus familiairs] so that is macro evolution right there isn't it?
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
If all modern species evolved from the 'kinds' on the Ark, well that means that macro evolution not only happens - but according to JW creationism must happen at a far faster rate than science thinks.
Mind you I am not researching out the fact or fiction of what is hybrid-able and what isn't. Right now, it isn't what I want to spend my time on. Macro-evolution, as I understand it, is the idea that adaptation crosses hybrid-able boundaries. And micro-evolution is what occurs within those boundaries. Now my reading comprehension may be flawed but it seems that now you are the one that is mixing micro with macro.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
Still puzzled. What does "understanding 'kind' in this way" consist of? From what I can gather, "kind" pretty much equates with species.

"kind" as it is used in Genesis seems to not equate well with what science calls a species.

"kind" seems to refer to a wide variety of a specific created type that is bound by sterilization when pushed too far in any direction.

If you can't cross-breed to create a viable hybrid, even in a laboratory, then they are not the same "kind."
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Mind you I am not researching out the fact or fiction of what is hybrid-able and what isn't. Right now, it isn't what I want to spend my time on. Macro-evolution, as I understand it, is the idea that adaptation crosses hybrid-able boundaries. And micro-evolution is what occurs within those boundaries. Now my reading comprehension may be flawed but it seems that now you are the one that is mixing micro with macro.
Well that is where you are going wrong - here is no such barrier or boundary. Macro is speciation - which has been observed many times.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
"kind" as it is used in Genesis seems to not equate well with what science calls as species.

"kind" seems to refer to a wide variety of a specific created type that is bound by sterilization when pushed too far in any direction.

If you can't cross-breed to create a viable hybrid, even in a laboratory, then they are not the same "kind."
Ok, well then the new species of fruit fly that were observed to emerge count as a change in kind because they are no longer able to interbreed. So clearly macro is not a barrier - we have seen it crossed.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
"kind" as it is used in Genesis seems to not equate well with what science calls as species.
Certainly not when it comes to loading up the ark with at least two of every kind.

"kind" seems to refer to a wide variety of a specific created type that is bound by sterilization when pushed too far in any direction.
"Type"? In any case, almost all species are intersterile, so they would appear to fit the criterion.

If you can't cross-breed to create a viable hybrid, even in a laboratory, then they are not the same "kind."
As I noted above, this would cover just about all the species on earth.

Note: Just looked it up. There is an estimated 7.77 million animal species, meaning Noah would have had to gather, feed, and care for about 15,000,000 animals.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Amazing macro-photography of individual snowflakes [10 Pictures]

Please take a look at these amazing photographs. Do you see design in these beautifully crafted snowflakes?

No two are alike and there is no way to appreciate them with the naked eye. There is only this very special kind of photography that allows us to see what amazing things the Creator has made, just because he can.

Blows me away. :)

Are they really amazing ?

Evolutionists think the whole world were a result of coincidences and chances, are the snowflakes that big issue ?
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Natural selection means that beneficial mutations are more likely to be passed on. So it is not a random process, it is driven by environmental feedback.

I didn't ask you about natural selection.

My question is clear.

Do you think evolution could happen without random mutations being involved?
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
I didn't ask you about natural selection.

My question is clear.

Do you think evolution could happen without random mutations being involved?
No, but that does not mean that evolution is random accident. It is selection.
 
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