So-called 'Brahman' that has no gunas, is that even possible?

[Viswa]

.

Sir, also, regarding this,

"sato bandhumasati niravindan hṛidi pratīṣyākavayo manīṣā ll"
Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation.

You don't have to wait until science find this, even you can find it. By casting of all desires, and when the mind wondering to find the truth, it reaches this heart, and there is existent's kinship in non-existent, which is otherwise called in scriptures as Ishwara/Not-Creator-God/Sat-Chit-Ananda.

The existent's kinship in non-existence is this non-creator God, which is said in scriptures as,
Atman's kinship with "Appearance of Atman",
Purusha with Prakriti,
Sleeping Narayan in Anantasesha,
Shiva Linga,
Omniscient Lord who dwell in Bliss and never acts.

If Ramana, Jesus (including Viswa ) can feel this bliss in heart, why can't you, why to wait for science? Science cannot find this, as it can only be found within (not outside). Light cannot surpass the space in Universe (light,air,water,land has it's limitations to space) and so no one can witness with eyes beyond universe. Not like Madness of Multiverse where shown that body can survive, body has it's start and end with the universe it is made up of. No atoms can escape the space. Space is the lord of the Universe, and so no non-existence can be found when space-lord is present.

But, it can be found my mind when all it's desires switch off, when all it's attachment and aversion fades away.

So, Mind to inquire? Sure, within your death, science won't find it out. So, as you only live once, why not give it a try?

"Shanti" - what do you feel? Is it "Shanti" for physical energy, or "Shanti" for mind?

 

[Viswa]

.

Sir, A new learning from the conversation I had these days with you and in another forum.

Decided to drop speaking Vedanta/Upanishads/Atman/philosophies/religions/etc., Not because of frustration or going nowhere, it sometimes 'forcing' nature. Knowledge doesn't interest me, but even while responding to a question about knowledge - it bonds the mind with 'I know'/

Also, those may or might not be words of "Highly Knowledgeable Sages", so making those as a base and sharing it is also pretty useless (even though the heart they mention is felt).

Truly, I don't Know what any person lived/living spoke about, but many times - mind attach with Vedanta thinking that " I could somewhat grasp what is said in Upanishads", and mind starts to express those to others thinking that "I could somewhat grasp what you/peeps are saying, and I feel it is same/somewhat different from what I grasped from Vedanta". My Mind, many times forget that, it really don't know what Vedanta or Aupmanyav or Krishnamurti or Bhagavat Gita or etc. is talking about and assumes that "I somewhat Understand what is being said in Upanishads and forums and by schools and sages and philosophers and people", and compares with one another, and always dominating and makes me forget Bliss. Even, it might be the mind foolishly thinking that "what I might be experiencing is a 'drop of bliss'" by comparing scriptures, etc.. I might be fooling myself of my experience too. Mind many times wants to recognize that "what body experiences or understanding got by thinking" might be true, but hardly admits that 'recognition/sharing' itself an 'ego' (people will come to know/recognize when time comes, also for Viswa - Viswa will recognize it is true/false when time comes). Even, it many times don't want to be alone and urge to meet people and share, quite a big troublesome activity within me, and I have to practice now being alone and meet people only when called/interested by people.

Thank you for the conversation. It many times open up things which I failed to see/forgotten many times.

Take care.

Sorry.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If Ramana, Jesus (including Viswa ) can feel this bliss in heart, why can't you, why to wait for science? Science cannot find this, ..

So, Mind to inquire? Sure, within your death, science won't find it out. So, as you only live once, why not give it a try?

"Shanti" - what do you feel? Is it "Shanti" for physical energy, or "Shanti" for mind?

Many a times, people feel happy about false things. Our life itself is an example of this. I am not impressed by that kind of bliss. I need proof, evidence. How can I feel bliss when I am sure that I am in untruth?

My bliss has always been to be in truth since I read this verse in Valmiki Ramayana where Lord Rama says:
"सत्यमेवेश्वरो लोके, सत्यं पद्माश्रिता सदा; सत्यमूलानि सर्वाणि, सत्यान्नास्ति परं पदम् ll"
Satyam eva Ishwaro loke, satyam padmashrita sada, satyamulani sarvani, satyan nasti param padam.
Truth alone is the God in the world, virtues always reside in truth;
Everything has its base in truth, there is no station higher than truth.
Content | Valmiki Ramayanam

I was a theist for half my life (I will be completing 80 years this month). I changed my views because I did not find any evidence. You have a different view, that does not trouble me, You have a right to it.
I am always at peace. I have found satisfactory answers to all my questions. That, as I have mentioned, is Moksha, Nirvana, Jnana, Enlightenment, deliverance for me.

 

[Viswa]

How can I feel bliss when I am sure that I am in untruth?

Sir, May you please describe me more about this untruth? Like Imaginations/Thoughts? How can this imaginations/untruth happen when all there is only "physical energy/Brahman"? So, this imagination/untruth also truth/physical energy/Brahman? And whatever contents seen/felt in such untruth/imagination is also truth/physical energy/Brahman? Likewise the dreams - how can an untruth contents in dream happen in Truth? How can something untruth happen in Truth? If this is false that is also false, and if this is truth then that is also truth?

This is my major confusion started to inquire Vedanta, like how can ignorance/dream/falsity and it's contents happen in knowledge/physical/truth? So, all these accumulatively (false,imagination,dreams,relative,knowledge,physical,absolute,truth,Ishwara,Universe,SatChitAnanda,etc.,) totally comes under the head "Truth" or what Sages called 'Brahman'"?

This above questions are just foolish thoughts - also truly not to hurt or change your ideas, but I thought it might be a question which you might have missed to look for an answer. If you know satisfactory answer for that too (or let the science find the answer), very well, please let me know, so that I may inquire about it and learn something, and there might be a possibility of changing "neither Theist nor Atheist" to fully "Atheist Hindu", because I'm open to learn and change my ideas/thoughts according to learning as I'm very foolish. I was very Theist before (even made a ignorant preaching in Krishnamurti forum), but then after deep inquiry I felt, "Mind needs some real food/security for peace, or else it goes on reacting to what happens in world, it falls to all attractive things in world, becoming angry upon unfair/illegal/inhumane actions happen". The evidence that I got to stick my mind to God/Bliss is, "it totally doesn't make me fall to attractions when I feel it, and not angry or joyful upon people's actions, mind becomes very calm (insensitive and thoughtless?) and feels this energy originating from right side of chest and increasingly flows all over body, also at the same time Kundalini goes up and some heaviness felt in top of head, tears flows in my eyes after few seconds/minutes, the face becomes like Buddha's/Temple idols - the small smile with half closed eyes". As of now, my mind easily goes to this only when it sticks/remembers to God/Bliss, so I let it go such way - instead of draining semen (Edit - Most importantly fear. Fear in watching jaws and claws of animals, fear of their sound/roaring, fear upon Thunder, fear upon death - all these the mind gets totally disturbed, but that reduces much when Mind sticks to God/Bliss).

I decided not to speak/share Vedanta/scriptures/etc., the above questions are only questions of my own (really curious to learn and not a trick I played before to make you inquire Vedanta/heart/Bliss/God). If these questions doesn't resonate, you may please ignore this too, never have to think about it.

Thank you sir.

Also, sorry for all my questions and compulsions and words if It hurted you.

 

[Aupmanyav]

How can this imaginations/untruth happen when all there is only "physical energy/Brahman"?

Also, sorry for all my questions and compulsions and words if It hurted you.

First thing, Viswa, do not address me as 'Sir'. I am just another member of the forum like you. Just Aup. will do. And you have not hurted me.

You can take space as a collection of points along its three axes. Energy jumps from one point to another. That is the inherent property of Brhman. It is like a Feynman diagram, and all over the universe. This creates 'maya', all that which our mind makes of it. The working of brain, mind, too, can be reduced to a Feynman diagram.

You see, such a small two line answer for all the questions of the world.

 

[Viswa]

First thing, Viswa, do not address me as 'Sir'. I am just another member of the forum like you. Just Aup. will do. And you have not hurted me.

Thank you so much Aup.

You can take space as a collection of points along its three axes. Energy jumps from one point to another. That is the inherent property of Brhman. It is like a Feynman diagram, and all over the universe. This creates 'maya', all that which our mind makes of it. The working of brain, mind, too, can be reduced to a Feynman diagram.

You see, such a small two line answer for all the questions of the world.

Okay. I can understand Aup. But there are two doubts I have here.

One is, what do you point as Inherent property of Brhman? Is it Space(collection of points) or Energy or Both? Energy moves within 'where/ground' and jumping and connecting dots (as space is not ground but a result of connecting dots)?

Another is, does energy really moves or it looks like moving because of our thought/picture/diagram/imagine about past point and comparing? Does the point are really there or assumed it is there by our mind by comparing past(say energy at 11:00:01 sec) with past(say energy at 11:00:02 sec) at present (say energy at 11:00:03 sec)? Can we really say "energy is moving" or "points are there" without accumulating past with our mind/thoughts and right it down in a paper and comparing?

 

[Aupmanyav]

One is, what do you point as Inherent property of Brahman? Is it Space(collection of points) or Energy or Both? Energy moves within 'where/ground' and jumping and connecting dots (as space is not ground but a result of connecting dots)?
Another is, does energy really moves or it looks like moving ..

It is energy. I think Space and Time are derivatives. However, let science say something about it.
Energy pulsates (spandan), i.e., the amplitude and direction change all the time, IMHO. That is one inherent property of Brahman.
Points are for better understanding. You can think of a unit of space.
Pulsation of energy creates what we see as atoms or its components.
It does so even in each of the 86 billion neurons and about that many non-neuron cells (glia) in our brain.
"Although neurons are the most famous brain cells, both neurons and glial cells are necessary for proper brain function." - Google Search
(White matter and grey matter in brain)
Sanskrit - Dictionary

Existence (is such a tenuous thing)

 

[Viswa]

It is energy. I think Space and Time are derivatives. However, let science say something about it.
Energy moves, i.e., the amplitude and direction change all the time, IMHO. Points are for better understanding. It is like the motion of water in a sea. Movement of energy creates what we see as atoms or its components.
The better word for 'move' will be 'Spandan', pulsation.

Okay...
Thank you Aup for explaining.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Now, that makes me think - Spandan (Sanskrit, Indian languages) and Spin/spun are from the same PIE root.

spin (v.)
Old English spinnan (transitive) "draw out and twist fibers into thread," strong verb (past tense spann, past participle spunnen), from Proto-Germanic *spenwan (source also of Old Norse and Old Frisian spinna, Danish spinde, Dutch spinnen, Old High German spinnan, German spinnen, Gothic spinnan), from PIE *spen-wo-, suffixed form of root *(s)pen- "to draw, stretch, spin."
spin | Search Online Etymology Dictionary

 

[Viswa]

It is energy. I think Space and Time are derivatives. However, let science say something about it.
Energy pulsates (spandan), i.e., the amplitude and direction change all the time, IMHO. That is one inherent property of Brahman.
Points are for better understanding. You can think of a unit of space.
Pulsation of energy creates what we see as atoms or its components.
It does so even in each of the 86 billion neurons and about that many non-neuron cells (glia) in our brain.
"Although neurons are the most famous brain cells, both neurons and glial cells are necessary for proper brain function." - Google Search
(White matter and grey matter in brain)
Sanskrit - Dictionary

Existence (is such a tenuous thing)

Hello Aup.
I thought about it, but I feel I'm not in a position to share what I see.

Before, I decided not to speak Vedanta/scriptures/etc., but now, I took a step further and not comment upon other persons's views and not share my own understandings too (except for job/survival), because I feel I really don't understood things though I think I understood - so couldn't share. I think you can understood my position now. I had understood/said these before but just intellectually reacting at that time. But now, I took time and I realised of my understandings, and I feel I really mean it.

Thank you for sharing your wonderful insights, but sorry as I couldn't reply also for my words.

Take care old man.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Viswa, it is quite easy to understand. However, our prejudices block us from understanding it.

 

[ameyAtmA]

It is energy. I think Space and Time are derivatives. However, let science say something about it.
Energy pulsates (spandan), i.e., the amplitude and direction change all the time, IMHO. That is one inherent property of Brahman.
Points are for better understanding. You can think of a unit of space.
Pulsation of energy creates what we see as atoms or its components.
It does so even in each of the 86 billion neurons and about that many non-neuron cells (glia) in our brain.
"Although neurons are the most famous brain cells, both neurons and glial cells are necessary for proper brain function." - Google Search
(White matter and grey matter in brain)
Sanskrit - Dictionary

Existence (is such a tenuous thing)

Namaste

Yes but it is Bramh's energy. Like you have energy, and you are energetic.
However saying "It's energy" is like saying "It is just 1s and 0s" for a complex software ecosystem that takes care of a multitude of things.
The high and low signals are the fundamentals, but a complex software ecosystem has to be developed (and it gets developed over time). Random 1s and 0s cannot do the trick.

Nature of Bramh' develops it naturally as it is Bramh's swabhAva to program Itself, and delegates are formed -- please note the passive tense, not active tense.
More delegates appear from these delegates by the inherent property of Bramh'.

 

[Viswa]

Viswa, it is quite easy to understand. However, our prejudices block us from understanding it.

Hi sir. Truly.

You know what sir? Today, I attended a dialogue in one of Jiddu Krishnamurti forums. I was really aware of what is going on, calmly watching it.
Then, after an hour or more, I felt like "If I don't share anything - even if I don't share which I misunderstood - then I am not participating in it". Then when that feel came, immediately I forgot to be aware that "I really didn't understood", but started to share questions/words/anything feeling like "I understood what people says or what goes on in mind".

Either I feel like "away" from meeting if I don't share words/thoughts (even don't share misunderstandings), or I fall to delusion that "I understood" forgetting that I really don't.

It's very deep and very tough to decide "what to really do if I don't understood"? Like "share that I don't understood and further delude myself that I understood" or like "stay away by saying myself 'listen'" or like "sign off" or like "whatever"?

What to do when I am in midst of something?
Stay silent by seeing that I not understood - is it a right thing, even if a thought comes that "I have to participate with words/share" - just stay calm and not a problem if I not participate?

It's a very big question for me right now. If I not participate, then why I have to be here silent? Why not just be alone in my house, silent, instead of being in a meeting and stay silent?

One prejudice I have is, "thinking that I understood" by forgetting that I really don't.
Another prejudice is, "Have to go to dialogues/meetings/forums to understood/learn, and staying with "I don't understand" is a bad thing".
Yet another prejudice is "Being silent in dialogue/meetings/forums is a not-participation, and have to participate and share 'like I understood'".
Also another prejudice is "Remaining silent lone in home is also a delusion/security from facing people/things/my own reactions".
Another prejudice is "I am only hurting people when I share something by deluding myself like I understood".

Much much prejudices (mostly opposing), driving one by one by one in it's way, and I really don't know what to do.

I couldn't decide what to really do in life, in this never ending uncountable prejudices.

Note - Another prejudice is "I should not share this because it's all personal rubbish things, and only hurting people and wasting their time".

I don't what is to be done, shall you recommend me??

Silently being with myself alone, instead of coming here/meetings and creating a possibility of hurt by sharing those that I not understood, would be very good thing? Like Sages went to Himalayas?

I really feel it's a better thing now. Also, now I am looking for an accountant job in my city (Erode) nd nearby one (Coimbatore). I looking to earn around Rs. 20000 (around 250 $), to sustain basic nessesities and save excess to give it to parents and postpone my competitive exams preparations now as my mom felt that "How many days you gonna be in home?". Just work (irrespective of whether govt. job or not - actually interest to study for govt. exams also dropped because I was searching a "secured" job but not facing risk, so feel to face the risks now), stay with myself silently, speak only for earning money in job and for none other, will be a great thing I feel. Am I right?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes but it is Bramh's energy. Like you have energy, and you are energetic.
Random 1s and 0s cannot do the trick.
Nature of Bramh' develops it naturally as it is Bramh's swabhAva to program Itself, and delegates are formed -- please note the passive tense, not active tense.
More delegates appear from these delegates by the inherent property of Bramh'.

By energy, I always mean 'physical energy' and not any 'divine energy'.
The workings of 'physical energy' (Braqhman) are not random, they follow there own laws. However, we do not know all those laws.
Brahman does not form anything. All formed things are illusion. Brahman has no need to form anything.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It's a very big question for me right now. If I not participate, then why I have to be here silent? Why not just be alone in my house, silent, instead of being in a meeting and stay silent?
I don't what is to be done, shall you recommend me??
Like Sages went to Himalayas?

.. so feel to face the risks now, stay with myself silently, speak only for earning money in job and for none other, will be a great thing I feel. Am I right?

What is that which cannot be understood? (This is a challenge. I mean there is nothing that cannot be understood)
Everything can be understood, barring those questions on which research is going on today (like existence, singularity, etc.).

What cannot be understood is garbage in religions. We have accumulated a lot over millenniums. It is presented in many forms. That needs to be jettisoned. There is another name for it 'Shabda jaal', 'maze of words'. I hate that. What I state is precise and forth-right. Just smile and relax when you see that they are talking sheet.

I do not need meetings. I don't remember to have gone to a 'satsang'. For me, they are a waste of time, and they don't tell me anything new. I would rather stay at home and contemplate. I had my favorite speakers and watched their lectures on TV or Videos (Swami Adgadananda, Swami Awadheshananda, Kripalu Maharaj). They spoke beautifully though I do not always agree to what they say. Forums are OK, since you control what you are doing. In a 'satsang', someone else is in control.

Sages went to Himalayas, when that time came for it, Yajnavalkya, for example. Otherwise they were involved in the activities of the world. 'Dharma' does not allow us to shirk from our duties. You are right. Go out and face the world, don't be glum, be cheerful, make a beginning.

 

[Viswa]

What is that which cannot be understood? (This is a challenge. I mean there is nothing that cannot be understood)
Everything can be understood, barring those questions on which research is going on today (like existence, singularity, etc.).

Okay..

Just smile and relax when you see that they are talking sheet.

.. True.. But sometimes my mind thinks like, "what if only I am not understanding what they say and deceive myself with a deluded understanding, but they are very clear and correctly understood?" and then hate myself by thinking that "I shouldn't have acted like I understood and hurt them in behaving such a manner that they don't want/like".

Forums are OK, since you control what you are doing.

That too, I am doubting more, like I am really controlling myself or ignorantly hurting others (uncontrolled) with my misunderstandings.

In a 'satsang', someone else is in control.

Fact..

Go out and face the world, don't be glum, be cheerful, make a beginning.

Thank you Aup. I felt before that going to forums and meetings is like facing world, but there is a big world where I can really try to be silent in day-to-day life, rather than forums/meetings.

 

[Aupmanyav]

".. True.. But sometimes my mind thinks like, "what if only I am not understanding what they say and deceive myself with a deluded understanding, but they are very clear and correctly understood?" and then hate myself by thinking that "I shouldn't have acted like I understood and hurt them in behaving such a manner that they don't want/like".

That too, I am doubting more, like I am really controlling myself or ignorantly hurting others (uncontrolled) with my misunderstandings." - Viswa

Dvandva, when things are not understood well.
You are at the beginning of the journey while I am at the end of it. I complete my 80th year on Sept. 16, and step into the 81st.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

@shivsomashekhar I would love to know your non-dualistic opinion as well.
Do you (like ameyAtmA) also think that Brahman's swabhava/maya/prakriti is the doer and not Brahman itself?

Since most of your posts sticks to the traditional Advaita, I would love to know why according to Shankara, Nirguna Brahman is NOT the doer.

 

[Viswa]

Energy pulsates (spandan), i.e., the amplitude and direction change all the time, IMHO.

Hello Aup.
I thought about it deeply, and something stroke my mind.
If Energy is everywhere, how can it expand or contrast or pulsate or move or have direction or etc?
Even for a wave to appear, there is a need of "not-water" (like space above water) for movement.
But, as (only?) energy is everywhere, how can it be called with above terms? By individualising energies? Like one individual energy contrast and so another nearby individual energy expands/pulsates? Like one individual energy taken as 'moved' and another individual energy fills the position of that before moved individual energy?

May you please explain me more, so I can rightly understand (if I can!)?

 

[Aupmanyav]

If Energy is everywhere, how can it expand or contrast or pulsate or move or have direction or etc?
Even for a wave to appear, there is a need of "not-water" (like space above water) for movement.
But, as (only?) energy is everywhere, how can it be called with above terms? By individualising energies?

expand/contract, no. Pulsate, that is its inherent property.
I am not sure about space/time. As I mentioned they may be derivatives of energy. I will wait for science to tell us more.
Individual (things/vegetation/animals/humans) are illusions. There is no individualization in energy.

Remember what Ishavasya Upanishad says:
"Purnamadah, punamidam, purnat purnam udachyate;
purnasya purnam adaya, purnam eva vasishyate."
That is whole, this is whole, from that whole arises this whole;
give the whole from the whole, the remainder is still the whole.

Hinduism was aware of Quantum mechanics, though they did not explain it in a scientific language.