So... is God incompetent or uncaring? Which of the two?

[ryanam]

9 million children die each year before they reach the age of 5.

An Asian tsunami (2002 variety which killed over 250,000 people) happening every 10 days killing children only under 5. That's around 24,000 a day, 1,000 an hour, 17 or so per minute. By the time I finish this post a handful will have died in agony, scared for their life.

Other factors involved in this horrendous process are things like the parents. Many of these parents believe in a god of some description and will be praying for their children to live or, in many cases because of the suffering involved, to die. Their prayers will not be answered.

Is this part of gods original plan?

I submit that any god willing to watch this happen is one of two things. Either it doesn't care to stop this perpetual cycle of death, or it doesn't have the ability to.

The fact that, under many views, these children will be going straight to hell because of where they were born or because they were told to worship the wrong god is almost as bad.

If human's have free will which is likely the explanation for all of this, then what's the point? Is god there only for people to think they have an explanation to the creation of the universe? Does this god guide the hand of those chosen few? Or are we all left to our own devices for god to sit back and watch?

 

[Breathe]

Or option C, neither and you need to look beyond simple "man in the clouds" theism. Then again, I've never met any anti-theists whom I've considered to be knowledgeable in either religion or theism anyway. Just my observation from living in a mostly irreligious area and online.

The fact that, under many views, these children will be going straight to hell because of where they were born or because they were told to worship the wrong god is almost as bad.

I've never heard anyone say young children go to Hell, neither Muslim or Christian, ever. And these are the only two religions who believe in eternal Hell. Any Muslim who claims this is going against Islamic teaching.

So your "under many views" claim sounds like you've pulled it from somewhere else.

 

[Student of X]

Transcend your ego-consciousness and then come back and answer your own question for us.

 

[darkendless]

the OP does have a point. If for some reason you follow a personal omnipotent Godm why do we suffer like we do? My mother has smoked less than a pack of cigarettes in her whole life and has lung disease which has severely reduced her quality of life and yet pack a day smokers and Ozzy Osborne just won't die! How does that work?

 

[Student of X]

the OP does have a point. If for some reason you follow a personal omnipotent Godm why do we suffer like we do? My mother has smoked less than a pack of cigarettes in her whole life and has lung disease which has severely reduced her quality of life and yet pack a day smokers and Ozzy Osborne just won't die! How does that work?

It works like this. We believe we are separate from God and each other, and so through that flawed belief we create an insane level of consciousness (the ego-self) and identify with it. We get tangled up in it. From there, we can't perceive or interpret correctly because we are not in accord with God, reality, or nature. And since we are co-creators, we then mis-create. Our miscreations then bite us on the ***.

 

[darkendless]

It works like this. We believe we are separate from God and each other, and so through that flawed belief we create an insane level of consciousness (the ego-self) and identify with it. We get tangled up in it. From there, we can't perceive or interpret correctly because we are not in accord with God, reality, or nature. And since we are co-creators, we then mis-create. Our miscreations then bite us on the ***.

I'll be honest, I have absolutely no idea what you just said. I'll admit my grasp on the whole "consciousness" theory is less than a laymen.

I'd simply like to know how one identifying with a personal God can reason a clear injustice such as suffering, and the flow on effect.

 

[ryanam]

It works like this. We believe we are separate from God and each other, and so through that flawed belief we create an insane level of consciousness (the ego-self) and identify with it. We get tangled up in it. From there, we can't perceive or interpret correctly because we are not in accord with God. And since we are co-creators, we then mis-create. Our miscreations then bite us on the ***.

You believe we're not separate individuals? Can you give reason for that?

I'm talking about the original plan set out for every man woman and child. If people believe we are separate entities (which we are... it can be sugar coated and spiritualized as much as you want but we hold social skills akin to that which we evolved from... studied, observable, known to anyone who's studied it) isn't that because it was god's will for that to happen?

Can you also explain exactly what you mean by 'in accord with god' please?

Thanks

 

[ForeverFaithful]

False Dichotomies galore!!!!

 

[ryanam]

I'll be honest, I have absolutely no idea what you just said. I'll admit my grasp on the whole "consciousness" theory is less than a laymen.

I'd simply like to know how one identifying with a personal God can reason a clear injustice such as suffering, and the flow on effect.

You're not alone. My reply was a guess at understanding the gist of what was being said.

This 'one conciousness' although a nice and slightly strange notion is nothing more than what this poster was complaining about in the very first place. The human mind (ego) creating realities which simply don't exist. It's been done since we were living in the Savannah. We're not satisfied with the fact that we are the product of non-random development and are completely alone so we need to nurture that... give ourselves and our family the illusion not only that god exists but that we're in "accord" with both that god and ourselves at the same time.

 

[ForeverFaithful]

Did you perchance consider that this evil is due to free will,which God gave us for higher purposes? That there may be a final reckoning? You seem to have the presupposition that you know everything there is to know about evil, when it fact you know little.

 

[Student of X]

You believe we're not separate individuals? Can you give reason for that?

I would love to but that's a tall order for a mere post on a forum. What you want are quick and easy reasons that would satisfy someone who is still very much lost and confused in the maze of ego-consciousness? That's not possible to give.

I'll assume for the moment that you're a motivated learner and not just here to rant at religious people for a little while, and recommend a few books that might, if you read them carefully, begin to lead you out of yourself.

Amazon.com: The Hero with a Thousand Faces (The Collected Works of Joseph Campbell) (9781577315933): Joseph Campbell: Books

http://www.amazon.com/Man-Symbols-Carl-Gustav-Jung/dp/0440351839/

www.amazon.com/Living-Deeply-Transformation-Harbinger-co-published/dp/1572245336/

 

[darkendless]

Did you perchance consider that this evil is due to free will,which God gave us for higher purposes? That there may be a final reckoning? You seem to have the presupposition that you know everything there is to know about evil, when it fact you know little.

Perhaps you could address my thoughts in the post above?

How is Ozzy Osborne still alive when people who live a healthy lifestyle die of all sorts of illnesses. Where is the fairness? Taking the most basic approach and applying an omnipotent God, I cannot reason how healthy people die before those who abuse their body like crazy. It makes so little sense to see the healthy suffer (along with their familes) whilst the abusers propser.

 

[ryanam]

I would love to but that's a tall order for a mere post on a forum. What you want are quick and easy reasons that would satisfy someone who is still very much lost and confused in the maze of ego-consciousness? That's not possible to give.

I'll assume for the moment that you're a motivated learner and not just here to rant at religious people for a little while, and recommend a few books that might, if you read them carefully, begin to lead you out of yourself.

Amazon.com: The Hero with a Thousand Faces (The Collected Works of Joseph Campbell) (9781577315933): Joseph Campbell: Books

Amazon.com: Man and His Symbols (9780440351832): Carl Gustav Jung: Books

www.amazon.com/Living-Deeply-Transformation-Harbinger-co-published/dp/1572245336/

Many thanks. I'll check these out if I have time today.

Your answer could be as simple as "My knowledge on this subject comes from books written by men who have no more factual knowledge on the conciousness of god and humans as a collective whole than either you or I do" though.

Like I said, I'll check them out though.

Thanks again.

 

[darkendless]

Your answer could be as simple as "My knowledge on this subject comes from books written by men who have no more factual knowledge on the conciousness of god and humans as a collective whole than either you or I do" though.

That seems to be the issue doesn't it, wild speculation, nothing concrete. As someone who works with facts more than is healthy, the concept of something taken to be true without concrete facts is foreign. I guess I have a lot to learn outside my bubble.

 

[Student of X]

Many thanks. I'll check these out if I have time today.

I doubt you will.

Your answer could be as simple as "My knowledge on this subject comes from books written by men who have no more factual knowledge on the conciousness of god and humans as a collective whole than either you or I do" though.

That wouldn't have been a true thing to say. I find your assumptions to be insulting, so I'll leave you to them.

Like I said, I'll check them out though.

Thanks again.

Thank me after you've read and understood them.

 

[ryanam]

And it displays the ability of the human mind to generate immense thought from simple ideas picked up from media, film or books and pretty much run with them with a means to sculpt them into something which can be defined as a 'reality'.

 

[ryanam]

I doubt you will.



That wouldn't have been a true thing to say. I find your assumptions to be insulting, so I'll leave you to them.



Thank me after you've read and understood them.

I will. I just finished downloading the first one. I do seek knowledge, believe it or not.

Why do you find that assumption insulting? Would you care to expand, then, on where the belief you hold comes from?

 

[darkendless]

And it displays the ability of the human mind to generate immense thought from simple ideas picked up from media, film or books and pretty much run with them with a means to sculpt them into something which can be defined as a 'reality'.

Often compelling reasoning is the difference between acceptable theories and wild speculation. Its how I feel anyway, it even exists within science and engineering. Thankfully in the latter of the two, the difference between acceptable theory and wild speculation is shown in terms of cost ($ and lives).

With regard to intangible matters such as consciousness we are not afforded such direct means of analysis.

 

[ryanam]

we are not afforded such direct means of analysis

No human being is which why I wanted to know where/how Student developed his point of view.

 

[predavlad]

Something that does not exist cannot be neither incompetent or uncaring.

Did you perchance consider that this evil is due to free will,which God gave us for higher purposes? That there may be a final reckoning? You seem to have the presupposition that you know everything there is to know about evil, when it fact you know little.

An argument could be made that we have no free will, that all our decisions are they way they are simply because of the chemical reactions in our brain - we only have the illusion of free will. But I'll play along for a little while.

So, you're basically saying that god (which one?) gave us the choice to be either good or evil. There is no middle ground really, at least in religions with Heaven and Hell ideologies. So if we choose to be evil we are punished, if we choose to be good we are rewarded. That's not really freedom, it's just an illusion.

Just to give you an example : "Yes, you have so many choices to get down from that building. You can either use the stairs/elevator or jump off the building."