So Jesus is not God?

[IndigoChild5559]

I fully agree. Although, please do realize that Jesus and Paul didn't see its that way as they took this significantly further than the Hillel school did.

IOW, they took the position that "love conquers all", to put it into a modern expression, thus what Torah was really about from their perspective. I think Hillel likely would agree, but not to point whereas the Law could be ignored. Flexible, yes; ignored, no.

Well, I may be a "people", but no one has ever claimed that I'm "great".

Awww metis. You're a great guy here in the forum at least. I've grown quite fond of you.

It is difficult for me to find the right words. On the one hand, I want to make it very clear just why Jews have to decline the Christian gospel, because this is a mystery to most Christians. On the other hand, most Christians are wonderful people who serve God, and that's the ticket in my book. You all may say "faith alone," but when the rubber meets the road, you guys live in obedience to God, loving your neighbor as yourselves, as you say. I'm generalizing of course, but I think the point is sound.

 

[metis]

Awww metis. You're a great guy here in the forum at least. I've grown quite fond of you.

But you're such a poor judge of character , but thanks anyway. I'm so happy, thanks in large part to our friend @RabbiO, that we're now seeing each other more clearly. I truly do respect you and where you're coming from very much.

On the one hand, I want to make it very clear just why Jews have to decline the Christian gospel, because this is a mystery to most Christians.

And I definitely agree with you on that-- and lotsa other stuff as well, btw.

You all may say "faith alone,"

Mainly just the fundamentalists.

I'm generalizing of course, but I think the point is sound.

Gotta agree, so thanks for the above, my friend.

 

[Soapy]

I very much appreciate what you are saying, Metis. I'm not claiming that Paul was advocating Christians not try to be good people. And I do undersstand that the 613 apply only to Jews. But as you said, there were problems with having a bilateral standard of behavior. And thus the end of the Law, in Paul's view.

Well, Jews can't have that. According to Deut 13:1-5, this qualifies Paul as being a false teacher and we are not to listen to him. We simply can't be a part of anything that negates the commandments.

That doesn't mean that Christians can't be great people.

Please excuse my ignorance and that you may have explained this elsewhere but:

• What exact command are you saying Paul is negating?

 

[YoursTrue]

Hi Indigo,

Here's the thing. He is not another God. Trinitarians might want to make him another God, but he was actually the one and only God (YHWH) dwelling in a fleshly body.

He was? So the spirit within his body prayed to the spirit not in his body? It doesn't make sense. Jesus was a man. They didn't execute him because he said he was God. Even if he did (which he didn't), God cannot die. Jesus said there is only one True God. That means that he wasn't the One he called the only True God. It means that his Father was the "only True God."

 

[YoursTrue]

Awww metis. You're a great guy here in the forum at least. I've grown quite fond of you.

It is difficult for me to find the right words. On the one hand, I want to make it very clear just why Jews have to decline the Christian gospel, because this is a mystery to most Christians. On the other hand, most Christians are wonderful people who serve God, and that's the ticket in my book. You all may say "faith alone," but when the rubber meets the road, you guys live in obedience to God, loving your neighbor as yourselves, as you say. I'm generalizing of course, but I think the point is sound.

When Nazi Germany killed the Jews and other peaceably abiding citizens in WW2, the army wore buckles that said in German of course, "God With Us." ("Gott mit unz") But that is a while ago, so I guess you figure they too were wonderful people who serve God, is that right? As some might put it, they were doing the best they can while killing people and wearing their inscribed belt buckles saying God With Us.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

He was? So the spirit within his body prayed to the spirit not in his body? It doesn't make sense. Jesus was a man. They didn't execute him because he said he was God. Even if he did (which he didn't), God cannot die. Jesus said there is only one True God. That means that he wasn't the One he called the only True God. It means that his Father was the "only True God."

No the flesh prayed to the Spirit. He was God manifest in the flesh. Right - God can't die because God is an eternal Spirit. That was why he took on a body. So that he could shed blood for man's sin. The body he took on was flesh and blood, so the body could die. He called the body his Son. God was the one in that body. Colossians 2:8-9 and John 14:7-10 and 2 Corinthians 5:19

If they knew who he was they wouldn't have crucified him. He had to keep it somewhat hidden to accomplish his goal. 1 Corinthians 2:8

 

[Soapy]

No the flesh prayed to the Spirit. He was God manifest in the flesh....

This is interesting....

Does the flesh have its own Spirit... or was it enlivened by the Spirit of God (YHWH)?

Did YHWH spill his own blood? Does YHWH have blood?

Since it was man that sinned, how is it that GOD died for the sin of man?

Right - God can't die because God is an eternal Spirit. That was why he took on a body. So that he could shed blood for man's sin. The body he took on was flesh and blood, so the body could die. He called the body his Son. God was the one in that body. Colossians 2:8-9 and John 14:7-10 and 2 Corinthians 5:19

If they knew who he was they wouldn't have crucified him. He had to keep it somewhat hidden to accomplish his goal. 1 Corinthians 2:8

YHWH died but didn’t die? How are you defining ‘die’?

 

[YoursTrue]

No the flesh prayed to the Spirit. He was God manifest in the flesh. Right - God can't die because God is an eternal Spirit. That was why he took on a body. So that he could shed blood for man's sin. The body he took on was flesh and blood, so the body could die. He called the body his Son. God was the one in that body. Colossians 2:8-9 and John 14:7-10 and 2 Corinthians 5:19

If they knew who he was they wouldn't have crucified him. He had to keep it somewhat hidden to accomplish his goal. 1 Corinthians 2:8

So sorry, but anyway, if they didn't put him to death, he would still be living you think(?) in the flesh. (God-in-the-flesh-on-earth?)

 

[YoursTrue]

This is interesting....

Does the flesh have its own Spirit... or was it enlivened by the Spirit of God (YHWH)?

Did YHWH spill his own blood? Does YHWH have blood?

Since it was man that sinned, how is it that GOD died for the sin of man?
YHWH died but didn’t die? How are you defining ‘die’?

I was kind of thinking the same as you were, the flesh with the spirit, since God breathed into Adam's nostrils, and his 'body' came alive after the breath of life was blown into his nostrils. Breath, you may know, is also considered spirit from the Hebrew. Genesis 2:7 - "And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul."

 

[YoursTrue]

This is interesting....

Does the flesh have its own Spirit... or was it enlivened by the Spirit of God (YHWH)?

Did YHWH spill his own blood? Does YHWH have blood?

Since it was man that sinned, how is it that GOD died for the sin of man?
YHWH died but didn’t die? How are you defining ‘die’?

Good point. True that since it was man (not God) that sinned, good question is how God-in-the-flesh (or flesh only) could die for the sin of man.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

So sorry, but anyway, if they didn't put him to death, he would still be living you think(?) in the flesh. (God-in-the-flesh-on-earth?)

God knows everything. He knew what would happen and foretold it. But in your imaginary scenario - the answer would be that the flesh would have eventually died in some manner just as we do. Such as from sickness, or old age. Because he didn't take on the nature of an angel, but he took on the seed of Abraham for a body. But the Spirit of God is eternal and will never die.

Acts 20:28 ...feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Many try to claim that this verse doesn't have "God" in the Greek. But it is in some of the oldest manuscripts.)

 

[Muffled]

Let me recommend that you read the book "The Imitation of Christ" by Thomas Kempis, whereas his main drift is that we need to live as closely to the ideals that Jesus taught. If one doesn't even try to do as such, are they really Christian or are they just going through the motions of "religion"?

I have progressed beyond that. I don't live by what He said before but live by what He says now. It isn't that He changes but rather that the world changes.

 

[Muffled]

I don't think dead people can solve any problems. As for God, I think most often he wants us to work through our problems. That's why he gives them to us in the first place.

But at any rate, if Paul is the unstable person that I think he is, I certainly would not be looking to him for spiritual advice.

I believe a risen person who is the fist fruit of eternal life being one with the Spirit of God does solve problems. I believe he made my Covid-19 symptoms go away.

I believe that He prefers that if it actually can be done.

I believe God can do testing at times but there are other possibilities: punishment, discipline and to provide knowledge.

I believe your thinking is flawed. Whatever the volatile nature might be of Paul, after his conversion he was solidly planted on the Rock.

 

[Muffled]

Good point. True that since it was man (not God) that sinned, good question is how God-in-the-flesh (or flesh only) could die for the sin of man.

I believe another interesting question is: What good would it do to save the flesh from sin if the flesh perishes at death? So then is it not the Spirit of God that has to save the spirit that is in man?

 

[Soapy]

I was kind of thinking the same as you were, the flesh with the spirit, since God breathed into Adam's nostrils, and his 'body' came alive after the breath of life was blown into his nostrils. Breath, you may know, is also considered spirit from the Hebrew. Genesis 2:7 - "And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul."

Hi, YoursTrue, I have written about Adam’s body being inert and then being made alive only when the Spirit (breathe) was blown into his nostrils (of course we are to understand that this simply means: ‘Enlivened’... not a literal blowing into his nose!!). However, it seems after so many times, you are the only one who noticed this claim... and a claim that shows that Man (the Adam) is two parts: Flesh and Spirit. There are not three parts like Trinitarians speak of... the SOUL is ‘Body and Spirit, together’. Witness the term: ‘... and he became a LIVING SOUL’... An enemy can destroy the body but not the spirit of a man. Only almighty God can destroy the spirit... it is HIS property (YHWH is the creator of spirits), property loaned to each of us which is why it goes back to HIM when it departs the body of the man; hence Jesus quite rightly states: ‘Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!’. Trinitarians won’t talk of this because it proves Jesus has a ‘human spirit’ in a ‘human body’ just like all men do. When scriptures speaks of Jesus having the ‘spirit of God’, it does not mean he has TWO SPIRITS but rather that Jesus has USE of the Holy Spirit .., just as anyone who ‘follows the spirit of God’ would and will do! However, up till now, only Jesus Christ is truly following the Spirit of God (and he who truly follows the spirit of God IS A SON OF GOD’!!). Trinitarians will not discuss this truth!!
Note that the Father (YHWH) gave the GIFT of HIS Holy Spirit to the Apostles... but he gave it to them THROUGH Jesus Christ. Jesus PASSED IT ONTO THEM: ‘Stay in Jerusalem until I send you THE GIFT FROM THE FATHER...!’ which we know was the Holy Spirit and the sending was the anointing (‘Pentecost’). But make note that all apostles were not perfect and therefore could not receive the FULLNESS OF THE SPIRIT (as Jesus had during his anointing at the river Jordan). As such they only received limited amounts of the Holy Spirit according to their sinful state/level... some a little, some a lot...!! Having the Holy Spirit DOES NOT MEAN having TWO SPIRITS... and the ‘SPIRIT OF JESUS’ simply means that Jesus’ OWN SPIRIT ‘MIRRORS’ that of the Father... not that Jesus was the OWNER of the Holy Spirit like Trinitarians wrongly try to claim. If that was so, then what is the meaning of ‘[Jesus] breathed on them saying, “Receive ye, the Holy Spirit”? So then the Apostles are ALSO owners of the Holy Spirit???
No! Each person has ONE SPIRIT but can be influenced by addition spirits ... even a DEMON SPIRIT or the HOLY SPIRIT... indeed even by another HUMAN SPIRIT... the second spirit is an INFLUENCER - not the primary!!! If someone follows my orders against those which they would ordinarily do then they are ‘Following MY SPIRIT’. It doesn’t mean they have a copy of mine but only that their own spirit is influenced by mine as long as they desire to (note that slavish following is not the same because a slave is FORCED... for the following to be valid it must be SERVENTILE... voluntary!!)

 

[YoursTrue]

I believe another interesting question is: What good would it do to save the flesh from sin if the flesh perishes at death? So then is it not the Spirit of God that has to save the spirit that is in man?

I don't understand your question.

 

[YoursTrue]

Hi, YoursTrue, I have written about Adam’s body being inert and then being made alive only when the Spirit (breathe) was blown into his nostrils (of course we are to understand that this simply means: ‘Enlivened’... not a literal blowing into his nose!!). However, it seems after so many times, you are the only one who noticed this claim... and a claim that shows that Man (the Adam) is two parts: Flesh and Spirit. There are not three parts like Trinitarians speak of... the SOUL is ‘Body and Spirit, together’. Witness the term: ‘... and he became a LIVING SOUL’... An enemy can destroy the body but not the spirit of a man. Only almighty God can destroy the spirit... it is HIS property (YHWH is the creator of spirits), property loaned to each of us which is why it goes back to HIM when it departs the body of the man; hence Jesus quite rightly states: ‘Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!’. Trinitarians won’t talk of this because it proves Jesus has a ‘human spirit’ in a ‘human body’ just like all men do. When scriptures speaks of Jesus having the ‘spirit of God’, it does not mean he has TWO SPIRITS but rather that Jesus has USE of the Holy Spirit .., just as anyone who ‘follows the spirit of God’ would and will do! However, up till now, only Jesus Christ is truly following the Spirit of God (and he who truly follows the spirit of God IS A SON OF GOD’!!). Trinitarians will not discuss this truth!!
Note that the Father (YHWH) gave the GIFT of HIS Holy Spirit to the Apostles... but he gave it to them THROUGH Jesus Christ. Jesus PASSED IT ONTO THEM: ‘Stay in Jerusalem until I send you THE GIFT FROM THE FATHER...!’ which we know was the Holy Spirit and the sending was the anointing (‘Pentecost’). But make note that all apostles were not perfect and therefore could not receive the FULLNESS OF THE SPIRIT (as Jesus had during his anointing at the river Jordan). As such they only received limited amounts of the Holy Spirit according to their sinful state/level... some a little, some a lot...!! Having the Holy Spirit DOES NOT MEAN having TWO SPIRITS... and the ‘SPIRIT OF JESUS’ simply means that Jesus’ OWN SPIRIT ‘MIRRORS’ that of the Father... not that Jesus was the OWNER of the Holy Spirit like Trinitarians wrongly try to claim. If that was so, then what is the meaning of ‘[Jesus] breathed on them saying, “Receive ye, the Holy Spirit”? So then the Apostles are ALSO owners of the Holy Spirit???
No! Each person has ONE SPIRIT but can be influenced by addition spirits ... even a DEMON SPIRIT or the HOLY SPIRIT... indeed even by another HUMAN SPIRIT... the second spirit is an INFLUENCER - not the primary!!! If someone follows my orders against those which they would ordinarily do then they are ‘Following MY SPIRIT’. It doesn’t mean they have a copy of mine but only that their own spirit is influenced by mine as long as they desire to (note that slavish following is not the same because a slave is FORCED... for the following to be valid it must be SERVENTILE... voluntary!!)

insofar as Jesus is concerned, he can be considered the Servant in the Messianic prophecies.
Matthew 12
This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
“Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
the one I love, in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

 

[Soapy]

insofar as Jesus is concerned, he can be considered the Servant in the Messianic prophecies.
Matthew 12
This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
“Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
the one I love, in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

Yes... and that’s another verse I’ve quoted so many times yet no one responded to its truth.

I think we have a kindred spirit of truth (so far!)

 

[Soapy]

I don't understand your question.

I believe the question asks:

• Why was there a need for a ‘flesh God’ if it is the Spirit that is to be saved???

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes... and that’s another verse I’ve quoted so many times yet no one responded to its truth.

I think we have a kindred spirit of truth (so far!)

(smile) You mentioned servitude, and so I looked up servant. And Jesus loved the Father. And the Father loved him. And Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of suffering servant. Which helps to understand his position in the universe. When the Ethiopian eunuch was reading the portion of Scripture referring to Jesus in prophecy at Isaiah 53, he was known as the suffering Servant. Jesus did this out of love for the Father. Also, some commentators have likened this to the desire of some servants in Israel's history who did not want to leave the household of the master after the time of servitude was up, and so upon agreement, the master put an awl through the ear of the servant designating the agreement. Jesus loved the Father, and the Father loved him.